In the most recent copy of the Shooting Times, I believe it is the May issue, there is an interesting article by Greg Rodriguez on the use of smaller calibers on big game. Apprently Greg also works either as an outfitter or guide or both and has documented the experiences of his hunters and the calibers they used, and how those calibers performed on the immediate deaths of the game shot.

I don't have the article here now but the percentage was very high for those deer with longer recovery distances and time for the magnum calibers when compared with the smaller calibers. He draws the conclusion that hunters can shoot better with the smaller calibers. I agree completely with him.

This is good information because it isn't someone's sacred holy opinion tied closely to his manhood but rather experience and facts. Check it ou as it makes for interesting reading.

I read it the other night. he seems to make some good points, but I draw the line at the .243. I'll stick with my .257 Bob as the smallest I'll use on deer and prefer my 7x57.
It's a good read though, not like some of the B.S. I see in some of the gun rags.
Paul B.

In my humble opinion/experience...

Bigger diameter kills faster
higher velocity kills farther

and shot placement trumps them both.

Nothing new there, like SDHunter says, "Shot placement...."

Yada yada yada. A small rifle doesn't automatically make you a good shot; a big rifle doesn't automatically make you a bad shot. the pop gun crowd like to think that but it isn't so. It still boils down to practice, practice, practice.

stillbeeman,
I have to agree with you.

My first rifle was a 243 that was horrid. I was a small 11 years old. Hard plastic butt plate, didn't fit, shot over the hood of a truck, no hearing protection. Had a miserable time with that rifle. I have no desire to ever have it back. Even though it was my first rifle.

My second rifle was a 270 Win. Better fit, hearing protection, had a rubber pad. I was pleasantly surprised after the first shot. I went on to enjoy that rifle for quite a few years. I wish I had that rifle back for nostalgia's sake.

I actually shot a 270 win better than a smaller rifle. But I will admit there was a lot of different factors that came into play.

The smaller the caliber the better your shot placement must be and the more attention should be given to distance from animal as to know exactly how the projectiles trajectory would be.

The third and most important part in this setup is bullet used - absolutely the best premium bullet with the best possible terminal ballistic performance is essential to do the job best.

A much more challenging way to hunt than simply hitting a large hole through an animal

Could this have something to do with flinching? That is, hunters without much shooting experience flinching when shooting the larger calibers while hunters with the smaller calibers don't tend to flinch as much. Of course if one takes time to practice with his larger caliber and becomes a good shot, then the larger caliber would be more devastating. I think the key here is the hunter and not the gun. Just my 2 cents worth.

Red, you just opened up a whole 'nother can of worms. These box a year guys that will tell you "I ain't shit on paper but I'm hell on game" are, as a rule, shitty hunters no matter what they're shooting.
If a fellow is gonna be a real hunter, he's gonna know how to use his equipment. He's gonna know his rifle and he's gonna keep in practice. Whatever he's shooting.
I'll admit when you go to the public range on sight-in day, it's more fun to watch the magnum shooters than the .243 shooters because when the .243 shooters flinch their shots into the dirt 25 yards in front of the bench their hats don't fly off.

Tho I haven't read the article, I'm sympathetic to the concept. Apparently, so was the US military; they abandoned the 06 & 308 for use against dangerous, man-sized game in favor of a hot 22. And, I assume, for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread.

Bud W

And they are finaly admiting they made a really stupid mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
And they are finaly admiting they made a really stupid mistake.

Yeah, particularly they talk about the lack of range in the 223 for combat in Afghanistan...

An M14 Chambered in 260 Rem would be my choice if I had to pick something to carry in combat over there...

The same magazine also had a good article on comparison between the 308 and 260 Rem, for long range shooting..the 260 with 142 grain Sierra Match actually had a flatter trajectory at 1000 yds, than a 300 Win Mag with the 190 grain Sierra Match bullets.....

Also kinda funny in the article... they mentioned that the 140 Grain A max was a bad bulllet to use as a Sniper Round... they gave it high credit for accuracy, but claimed it penetrated too much for police work...cry me a river huh?

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
And they are finaly admiting they made a really stupid mistake.

AMEN. an f'ing 223 is a varmint rig, not a weapon of war

I'm not going to claim to be an expert but do have a bit of experience. Started shooting at age 10, reloading at 25, and celebrated my 66 birthday last year.
Two years ago I spent several months loading different bullets for my 22-250, my goal was to see if I could find a load that would work for coyote and bobcat, well being a good enough load to stop a large 300-400#' hog (each year I go South to spend a couple of weeks on my Brothers ranch in Texas).
I called and visited with a number of bullet producers (most bullet of this size are designed to explode on impact, I wanted a bullet that would give me penetration and mass retention) and finally settled on Barnes 53gr TXS solid copper bullet.
I would be using the bullet in my Savage 22-250 topped with a Leupold 3X10 55mm.
After many trips to the range I settled on the following load: Remington case, Federal large rifle primer, Barnes 53gr TSX, push along by 35gr of Hodgdons Varget.
Results: 7 hogs from 80lbs to 320#, none going more than 20yds. shots were from 80-120yds. All were shoulder shots and the Barnes TSX turned their insides to Jello, not being stopped by shoulder bone or gristle plate on the hogs side. In the processes of taking these hogs, no other hogs were missed or wounded.
I wouldn't be afraid to use this load on deer in any state where it is legal. The above information is bases on facts and is not speculation, this load works great in my 22-250.

Bluegunner, I respect your post. Thanks for sharing that info.

There's no doubt a 22 cal can punish even a big mulie buck. I know. My friend in Cortez took a nice one some years ago with a partition from a 22-250 at 60 or so yards.

A key point here was already mentioned above and that is that many opine that a better bullet is necessary, as well as accuracy, the smaller the diameter. You did that. I know many hunters do not like Barnes bullets and proclaim them to be over-rated and unreliable for expansion (also based on accounts), but yours are persuasive in favor of them.

Within reason, I also admit that many of the calibers smaller than .277 work extremely well on medium sized game, but I state that so long as shot distance is also reasonable and within effective ranges for that caliber/bullet combo.

Over the last four or five years I've made it a point to work at our gun club's public deer rifle sight-in days. As a general rule - at least as applies to those we might presume to be the "box or two a year man" - the smaller the bore the tighter the groups. Guys with 243s shoot much better than those with 30'06s. Guys with 270s shoot better than those with 300 magnums. Teenage girls shoot 20 ga slug guns better than their brothers using Dad's 12 ga gun. New shooters do better with guns wearing decent recoil pads. Folks with iron-sighted, steel-butted rifles tend to shoot a minute of breadbasket group at 100 and call it good.

quote:

Originally posted by Bluegunner:
I'm not going to claim to be an expert but do have a bit of experience. Started shooting at age 10, reloading at 25, and celebrated my 66 birthday last year.
Two years ago I spent several months loading different bullets for my 22-250, my goal was to see if I could find a load that would work for coyote and bobcat, well being a good enough load to stop a large 300-400#' hog (each year I go South to spend a couple of weeks on my Brothers ranch in Texas).
I called and visited with a number of bullet producers (most bullet of this size are designed to explode on impact, I wanted a bullet that would give me penetration and mass retention) and finally settled on Barnes 53gr TXS solid copper bullet.
I would be using the bullet in my Savage 22-250 topped with a Leupold 3X10 55mm.
After many trips to the range I settled on the following load: Remington case, Federal large rifle primer, Barnes 53gr TSX, push along by 35gr of Hodgdons Varget.
Results: 7 hogs from 80lbs to 320#, none going more than 20yds. shots were from 80-120yds. All were shoulder shots and the Barnes TSX turned their insides to Jello, not being stopped by shoulder bone or gristle plate on the hogs side. In the processes of taking these hogs, no other hogs were missed or wounded.
I wouldn't be afraid to use this load on deer in any state where it is legal. The above information is bases on facts and is not speculation, this load works great in my 22-250.

I enjoyed your comments Bluegunner. I have had much the same experience with my 22-250 as you have although I don't have the opportunity to hunt hogs here in Idaho. I have used my 22-250 on mule deer with great success and have a load very similiar to the one you used.

I am working developing a similiar setup with the .223 using the 45g Barnes and running it at high velocity somewhat close to the approach used by P.O. Ackley.

I have shot deer and elk with 45-70 (running a 405g bullet at 2000fps, plenty of recoil) , 300 Win Mag and probably the most with archery gear (25-30 animals) and find it interesting to continue in this hunting with a different approach. I've also used a .243, Varget and a 55g Nosler BT to take a couple of deer running that load at 4050 fps.

Accuracy and shot placement seem to be the determining factor whether you are using a small caliber, magnum caliber or an arrow. Whatever gives you the best accuracy and shot placement potential with adequate killing power would be the recommended way. This article points out from his experience, that smaller caliber and probably reduced recoil was the isolated key to better killing performance on the deer taken.

Although I grew up using a 222 to hunt a great deal of animals growing up, I no longer advodate small rifles on bigger animals.
Yes, shot-placement is important, but a outdoors writer put it very well recently: "it is not what a cartridge is capable of doing, but what it can be RELIED upon to do."
We all miss shots or worse, wound, and that is where a bigger cartridge helps.
That said, I also shy away from the big-blasting magnums that do my shooting skills no good.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
…He draws the conclusion that hunters can shoot better with the smaller calibers. I agree completely with him.

Maybe, but that is not always the case, and sometimes the opposite is true.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Yada yada yada. A small rifle doesn't automatically make you a good shot; a big rifle doesn't automatically make you a bad shot. the pop gun crowd like to think that but it isn't so.
It still boils down to practice, practice, practice.

Nail on the head.

Knowing your equipment and practice will make you more comfortable shooting, a point most people never get to unless they spend a heck of a lot of time shooting ONE gun. I shot in two four position CMP rimfire matches last spring and one of the guys in the match is a ranked high-power shooter.

The first match, he beat me by 70 or so points, if I remember correctly, and towards the end of the match I missed seven shots (failure to feed). My average for all shots was a little over 8.7 points. I hadn’t shot my 513T Rem for a while and the inside extractor bit the dust halfway through the match and I ended up hand feeding rounds into the chamber. He beat me mostly because I hadn’t practiced with that rifle in awhile.

The next match he only beat me by a couple of points (I scored a 486 and he was 490, I believe) as I was using my old favorite Marlin 881, a rifle I have put many rounds through, plus I shot an old model 60 just like it for years. This guy shoulda beat my score by a wide margin both times if shooting a small caliber was an advantage. This guy shoots thousands of rounds a year through his match rifle and there is no way I could beat him at his game.

Truth is he hadn’t shot a rimfire for awhile, and even he admitted that the score was a little too close for his comfort. If we had both been shooting his match rifle, I am sure the outcome would have been very different.

And it was a very good article.

I've taken three deer with an AR in .223 using a total of four rounds. The first two died in their tracks, the last one took two shots. Massive internal damage, no exit wounds and no external bleeding. It would have been a bitch to track any of them any distance in our thick woods.
The .223 works perfectly, with perfect placement. But we rarely hunt in perfect conditions.
My wife shoots her CZ 527 in .223 very well and we'll see if it works for her next season. I'll probably requisition something bigger out of the family gunrack and leave the .223 for groundhogs and yotes.

I've taken a few deer with a 223 and Barnese 45 gr X bullet...

I've also taken deer with the 223, and the 22.250 using 63 grain Sierra SMP and the 70 grain Speer SMP...

I took one buck at about 150 to 175 yds once, while carrying a 22.250 and a Speer 70 grain SMP... the deer came out in a clearing with another buck, and they saw me and headed directly away from me, showing me their asses as they ran away...

NO being a fan of a Texas Heart Shot myself, especially with a 22 caliber, I did what I have done in the past.. aim just a hair over the deers tail and below his antlers...

When I shot, the buck rolled head over teakettle instantly... the other paused and realized his buddy was down and he took off...

That 70 grain Speer left the Muzzle at about 3250 fps, and had hit the buck's vertebrae in the back of his neck... of course the kill was instant...

As soon as it had hit his spine, the bullet and his bones came out of his throat in front, maing an exit wound about the size of a dinner plate...

The rack was all screwed up and broken so it wasnt going to be mounted anyway...

I've done a few spinal shots in my hunting years...nothing puts them down quicker than those.. exceptin' brain shots...

Well, I see I've got to tell my "little old lady" story.
When I lived in Tenn, I knew a LOL that lived in a pretty remote place. Each fall, early in the morning, she would get out her blaze orange trooper hat and put it on, pick up her single-shot .22 (open sights of course), and walk down to the apple orchard. There she would sit quietly in a old kitchen chair she had carried down. Soon she would shoot a young spike or 2x2. She would only take a high neck shot or, if they were facing her, in the white throat patch. When she killed her deer, she'd come back to her house, get her riding lawn mower and drag the deer home and put it up.
Does that mean the .22LR is a deer cartridge? If someone asked "can I go deer hunting with my .22?" should I say "Oh hell yes." 'Cause the minute I do, there's gonna be some drooler out there spraying and praying with a 10/22 and cussing me because he's burned up two bricks of ammo and ain't brought down one yet.
Robert Rourk did NOT say "use the least gun you can get by with".

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Yada yada yada. A small rifle doesn't automatically make you a good shot; a big rifle doesn't automatically make you a bad shot. the pop gun crowd like to think that but it isn't so. It still boils down to practice, practice, practice.

Well said!! I have a number of big-bore rifles that I practice with more than my smaller caliber rifles, because they require more practice to master. Placement is everything, no doubt, but I am no advocate of using the bare minimum on large game.

The following is just my opinion, so take it for what you think it's worth. General, in life I have found that my opinion and a buck might get you a cup of coffee.

First, regardless of the caliber, I think the type of bullet needs to fit the game that you are hunting. Logic, not used by everyone (believe me, I don't always have a handle on it either) to me would dictate using Barnes Varmint Grenades, Hornady's V-max, or Nosler's Ballistic Tips for varmint, but they would not be my choice for deer and larger game (not saying you couldn't get lucky).

Logic also says to me that for larger game than varmints I need a bullet that gives penetration and shock power, such as Barnes Triple Shock, Hornady's InterBond, or Nosler's AccuBond and that I should be pushing it with a powder that gives the maximum speed and the best accuracy.

Logic also tells me that a gut shot deer hit with a 7mm or 300H&H is not as good a situation as a deer cleanly taken through both lung with a 223 or 22-250.

However, one doesn't go moose or bear hunting with a .224 bullet unless he or she is just out to prove a point (if one of you wants to face down a grizzly with a .224 bullet, be my guest). I love my 22-250 but I also have fond feeling for my 30-06 and I can tell you that it is the 30-06 loaded with 180gr Barnes TSX that I will be taking moose hunting this fall, not my 22-250.

I also will be spending hours this summer making sure that I will be getting the best performance possible from the weapon, the bullet, and the shooter when the moment comes to take that shoot.

My feeling is this, it is better to use a big game caliber to kill varmints than to use varmint calibers to kill big game. It is possible to kill deer with a 22lr or even a 17 caliber pellet rifle, but shot placement changes. Aim for the cerebellum with small bullets and they drop like lightning hit them. Unfortunately, most critters I have hunted in the past 10 years don't sit still for long and rarely give you those type of shot angles. As it is tougher to hunt in our neck of the woods, you like to better your odds by having enough bullet to take your game when the less than perfect angle presents itself. The 22-250 is good for culling in populated areas, but even then, don't be a bit surprised to have to knock on someones door to retrieve an animal. The 243 is a great low end caliber for almost any critter, followed by the 7-08 (or modern 7x57)

John

Two mates and I culled Fallow deer last year on a property at Mudgee........over 35 deer were shot in 2 days.

I shot 7 with 8 shots with a 6mm/06 and 75 gr Hornady Hollowpoints........

A few were shot with a 22-243 and 62TSX...complete penetration with broadside shots. Not as emphatic as the 6mm/06 however; but when 69 Nosler CC's were used, no one could discern the difference in killing power......

Blair that is interesting...Nosler CC is a match bullet and the myth is match bullets should not be used on game...

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Blair that is interesting...Nosler CC is a match bullet and the myth is match bullets should not be used on game...

Fallow deer do not take much to kill....

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
Two mates and I culled Fallow deer last year on a property at Mudgee........over 35 deer were shot in 2 days.

I shot 7 with 8 shots with a 6mm/06 and 75 gr Hornady Hollowpoints........

A few were shot with a 22-243 and 62TSX...complete penetration with broadside shots. Not as emphatic as the 6mm/06 however; but when 69 Nosler CC's were used, no one could discern the difference in killing power......

Blair,

interesting report...

Folks say match bullets shouldn't be used because the factories say they shouldn't, because customers have called in complaining of the failures they have caused... so they don't work all the time.. but some folks don't know how to apply the bullet's construction...

a match bullet with high BC and high velocity is definitely very lethal especially with good shot placement in the right spot...

what kind of velocity is your 6mm/06 running with those 75 grain Hornady HPs and what is your load you are doing.. that sounds interesting...and fun...

cheers
seafire

John, Ireload and Low Wall,

The load was 54grs of IMR 4831 and 210M primer in the 6mm/06. I have not chronographed it, but it was 2 grains off a sticky bolt.

The 69 Nosler seems to open up slowly/late, it leaves massive exit holes in 'roos......really cuts them to ribbons......in the 22-243 (Not a IMP version) I shoot 46grs of N560 with 210M.......VERY accurate. That load does over 3600pfs.

45 grains of the same powder with the Scirocco II, 75 grainer was doing 3560fps....3 shots into .6..which is the worst the rifle has shot. Have not tried that projectile on game yet......hope to do so in the next couple of weeks.

I have found that fallow deer are actually tougher to drop than red deer...........

I have also used the 168 Nosler CC's in a 300RUM.....it flips 'roos backwards......just slams them!

The one match bullet I would not use again is a Sierra, we tried the 107 gr in a 264 WM.....chest shot 'roos were hopping around and not going straight down....range was 550 yards though.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
...I've also used a .243, Varget and a 55g Nosler BT to take a couple of deer ...

I can see where that would be an excellent choice on Deer between 10#(still hung in the placenta) and 35-40#. Otherwise the "illogic" of the users Ballistic knowledge concerning Varmint Bullet Design is profound.
-----

Had a buddy send me a copy of Mr. Greg Rs article. Interesting that he would end up with such a HUGE amount of clients who "apparently" could not properly shoot their rifle of choice.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
...He draws the conclusion that hunters can shoot better with the smaller calibers. I agree completely with him. ...

I ended up with a different take on the data which has been duly noted by the majority of responders to this thread. And it can be seen at the Ranges every year - an overall lack of familiarity with their chosen firearms by some people.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - with Adequate Bullets and Cartridges.

I think you have to hit what you shoot at.
with any rifle. Recoil takes a little getting used to.
I can shoot any of my rifles prety well, but I bet If I am honest with myself ,when I am hunched over the but of my .338 winat the bench
, I am having less fun then when in the same position with a .257 roberts.
so, I shoot one of my little Roberts a bunch more making it more comfortable and familiar.
So I expect I will hit better with it.
Good chance I will be taking an 06 elk hunting this year.
Not beacuse Its a better round but because its easier to carry and I shoot it alot , meaning I am used to it and confident in it...tj3006

For all the anecdotes about successfully killing deer with small calibers I'd bet that there are a ton of others where the baby caliber shooters don't fess up to their wounding of deer.

You can kill a whitetail with about anything, including the 22 LR, 30 carbine, 38 special, etc.

A lot of it depends upon the bullet, but what is the point of shooting baby cartridges at deer? If you can't even manage the recoil of a 243, stay home! Hell, you can shoot a 243 from the hip!

Will,

None of the deer were wounded, we culled them, they were very fucking dead indeed.

A 22-243 is a different beast, high sectional density bullets through fast twist barrels

It worked mate and they aren't bloody elephants to put down.

IF you modify your hunting technique to the caliber your using, any caliber is a good big game rifle, but you must be capable of that..

I shot a lot of Mule Deer to feed a fencing crew in Mexico on a ranch we had leased when I was a kid. The gun I used was a Win. M-63 22 L.R. I shot them once or twice in the heart lung area or in the head..I shot them at up to 50 yards, I never lost one and don't recall one ever went further than 50 yards, if that...

I also shot my first three or four elk with M-94 Win.s in 25-35 and 30-30 and never lost one..I shot them at under 100 yards in the heart lung area and they never went over 50 to 75 yards is my guess...

I did my hunting before my shooting...

Today in the black timber of Idahos Selway I use a 338 Win. with 300 gr. Woodleighs as all shots are close and going away and I want to put them down in a hurry so they don't drop down into the divide and make packing them out a nightmare..

In the open sage country behind my house and if I am trophy hunting, I use an 06 or .270 or my 300 H&H on elk and deer, but if I am meat hunting then I still use the 25-35 and wait until I am within 100 yards of a buck.

Caliber makes little difference to me, but I know they all have to be used properly and with a properly constructed bullet placed in a vital area, the rest is

Blair,

I believe you! I'm just making general observations. Kill 'em with anything you want.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For all the anecdotes about successfully killing deer with small calibers I'd bet that there are a ton of others where the baby caliber shooters don't fess up to their wounding of deer.

You can kill a whitetail with about anything, including the 22 LR, 30 carbine, 38 special, etc.

A lot of it depends upon the bullet, but what is the point of shooting baby cartridges at deer? If you can't even manage the recoil of a 243, stay home! Hell, you can shoot a 243 from the hip!

A quote like this makes me wonder how many big hairy monster caliber shooters don't fess up to their wounding of deer? Numerically it would be a greater number because a lot more monster caliber shooters out there than the smaller caliber shooters.

Make me wonder about them fellas with the monster calibers on deer. Are them boys the ones with the pick-ups all jacked up four feet in the air? What is the saying? The higher the truck, the lower the IQ??????

Anytime someone comes up with experiences that go against the grain of these boy's OPINIONS they get their pretty feathers ruffled up some and denounce the deliverer of the experience as a recoil pu$$y or suggest that you should shoot your 243 from the hip or go home.

I think just to piss them off we ought to try shooting a deer with a .14 caliber 25g at 4500fps and see them piss their pants.

Searfire2 why don't you see if you can come up with some Blue Dot reloading data on the .14 25g. for a deer combo.

quote:

Searfire2 why don't you see if you can come up with some Blue Dot reloading data on the .14 25g. for a deer combo.

Because I got caught in the crossfire enough when I was putting out info, per other folks request, about Blue Dot in a sub 22 caliber round down to 17 caliber.. ....

let me recover a little before I decide to get in the crosshairs over a 14 caliber...

We won't even discuss taking a deer with a head shot from the 17 HMR cartridge that I still dislike quite a bit...that would get me flamed all over the place also!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Blair,

I believe you! I'm just making general observations. Kill 'em with anything you want.

quote:

let me recover a little before I decide to get in the crosshairs over a 14 caliber...

C,mon John, the smaller the better, mate!