As some posters to this Forum know, I am looking at purchasing a mint second hand or new Hornet or Hornet K.
The main reason, as I have a .223 and .22LR, is the reduced noise of the Hornets. This is very relevant to me as a lot of my shooting will be done in relatively closely settled country.
Our " hobby farm" is 650 or so acres, but there are far more neighbours than when the property was purchased 35 + years ago.

Main shooting will be rabbits and foxes. Need a bit more punch for foxes than the .22 can give.
On some sites, I have heard of, but not much about the .221 Fireball. To some extent, its very name would indicate that it is a hot load.

What is its noise level , compared to a Hornet?

Also, what grain bullets can you use in the calibre.

Looking at the very limited availablity of ammo in the Remington catalogue ( have not looked elsewhere) , this would seem a specialist calibre. On a quick search, it appears that Cz and Remington - in one rather expensive rifle- it also seems that it is not offered widely by manufacturers.

But at the end of the day, it is the noise issue and my wish to keep onside with our neighbours that is the imperative.

Do not worry Bushchook, am not going to back out of our deal and pls PM photos on either this or Aussie forum

I have a .221 in a Remington 700. It's quite accurate, and not particularly loud, but probably a bit louder than the Hornets. My rifle shoots the Remington factory ammo quite well. Cooper Rifles loads the .221 with 37 and 42 grain Calhoun bullets as opposed to the 50 grainers in the Remington ammo. Cooper will sell their ammunition direct.

http://www.cooperfirearms.com/ammo.html

I've heard the .221 described as what the Hornet should have been; I've never owned a Hornet, the impression I get is it is not an inherently accurate cartridge, but it can be made one.

Seeing as you are looking for a K Hornet, I take that you are a handloader. As such, you could use nearly any of the dozens and dozens of .22 bullets available for either the K Hornet or the Fireball. I owned one K Hornet and it was good. The Fireball on the other hand is also a winner. You will find it incrementally more loud than either of the Hornets.

Gabe

I would probably go for the straight Hornet.
Whilst I intend to handload, am not in a position to at the moment.

My personal preferences would be for a bolt action chambered in the 5.7x28. But then I have a penchant for the unusual.

having all 3 here's my take - the hornet (of which i'm no fan) is the smallest but often suffers from accuracy problems. The K hornet (of which i am a fan) is just a blown out hornet, but especially with lilgun powder becomes a lot more gun. it is louder, but not much, both can be shot without muffs providing you don't make a habit of it. The 221 is another step up. Think of it as the step between the k hornet and the 222. it able to handle 50 gr bullets better than the other 2. To buy a hornet it's just a $35 job to convert to k. You can also go find yourself a 222 and set the barrel back if you find one thats a great deal or you like best. you will want muffs with the 221, but it still has much less bark than does a 223. ammo is a handload process for the K and you are going to have a bit of difficulty finding 221. the other advantage of the k is that when you fire the regular hornets to form the case, they usually hit the same or very close to the same impact.

put me down for 5.7x28 in the new cz 527 american it is fantastic but I cut up a hornet to get it so that might be a good start

Get a CZ527 in 221 Fireball... and never look back!! That is just one damn fine rifle and cartridge combination. Hey, if you want Hornet noise levels, use Hornet loads in the 221 case. The cases are much more durable, and the Fireball has an excellent reputation for accuracy. I'll never be without one. Definitely to coolest rifle I own!!!!!!

I have both a K-Hornet and a standard Hornet. Both shoot factory ammunition ($26.95/50 in my area) reasonably well, but both are temperamental to build accurate loads for. I'd love to have a .221, which I think is more versatile and easier to load for, but I haven't come across the right one yet. However, if you don't reload, don't buy a .221 because you will be so limited and your ammunition costs so high.

BUT . . . it sounds as if what you really need is a .22 WMR. Using a 40 grain bullet at 1900 or so FPS, it is just right for larger varmints that are a tad too big for a .22LR. It is economical ($6.95/50) and stretches the useful range of a rimfire to an honest 100 yards or a bit more. I have a Kimber .22 WMR, but there are some excellent ones at much lower prices like the Marlin and others.

I have a CZ American in both .22 Hornet and .221 Fireball. I really like both rifles and each has its own niche.

Some posters here say that the Hornet has issues, but I think 95 percent of all problems with the Hornet revolve around 2 things:

Trying to squeeze 3000 fps from that miniscule case and also trying to squeeze 3000 fps from that miniscule case. Don't hot rod it. Load it for what is was intended to do.

All of the Hornets I have ever owned shot very well with the exception of the NEF that I purchased. I never could get past the 22 lb trigger pull that came with that rifle.
Lil Gun powder and CCI small rifle or pistol primers have given the best performance for me. It seems as if Lil Gun was formulated just for the Hornet. I really like the Sierra Blitz 40 bullets in my Hornet - they seem to be a bit more frangible than the Noslers. Since most of the shots at crows, groundhogs, and field lions are at ranges of less than 150 yards, I carry my Hornet in the truck more than any other gun I own.
The .221 is a different beast. More velocity with heavier bullets but at a cost. Noise and muzzle blast are increased. But again Lil Gun is my favorite powder closely followed by H-322. 50 grain Hornadays are what I settled on. Accuracy is great, not as good as my .222 but pretty close.
And if you should run accross an old Savage chambered in .22 H give it a try. Both of the ones I had shot very well.

I was in the market for something small like that and didn't get one. For the a 221 Fireball, I didn't like either the too-long action of the Remington or the CZ (for some reason). The Hornet seemed always to have "finicky" in posts about it - 0.1g difference made a big difference in accuracy, and I decided that was more effort than I wanted. Besides, the brass is old-designed, and, I'm told, only lasts a few firing, though this could be because, as crowrifle says, people try to squeeze too much out of it. Still the brass is thin and fragile, I understand. The K seemed okay, but I wasn't interested in even a good wildcat.

I settled on an Anschutz 22 Magnum. It shoots better than I do and will take woodchucks inside 100 yards, even more quietly than a Hornet. Thirty years ago Gun Digest had an article on the 22 Mag entitled, "The Magnum That Works." I agree - it works. Also, despite frequent assertions in forums that a Hornet is cheaper to reload for than the 22 Mag ammo to buy, I believe that's erroneous, mostly because of frequent need to replace Hornet brass. YMMV.

Jaywalker

Sounds to me like you made a good choice.

As a person with far too many rifles (according to Ted Kennedy & Ms. Pelosi), I have all four...22 Mag RF ( Ruger 77/.22-M), .22 Hornet (TCR'83), .22 K-Hornet (BSA Martini), and .221 rifle (built on XP-100 action). All are nice, handy little rifles. But, accurate and neat as the .221 is, it is a sort of in-between rifle for me and hence doesn't see much use. It is no more accurate than my .222 or .223 rifles, and not quite as long-ranged. On the other hand, it isn't as quiet as the standard Hornet or the .22 Maggie. I don't intend to sell it, but probably will reassemble it to its original "pistol" configuration. (Still have all the original parts...even the original hard leather, zippered, carrying case.)


Re the cost of .22 Mag ammo vs.reloading the Hornet, I believe you are correct. Now that bullets alone are approaching $10 per hundred for the Hornet, and primers are running about $1.50 per hundred, that comes out to about $5.75 per box of 50, without considering the amortization of loading equipment or the purchase of powder & brass. It is true that components can be found on sale from time-to-time, reducing the cost of reloading the Hornet. Still, the .22 Mag ammo is fairly often found on sale around here for less than $6 per box of 50. So it's still 6 of one, a half-dozen of the other.

I want to echo what Crowrifle said about the hornet. I have said old Savage and love it. The whole business of accuracy in both my hornets(the other a contender) is the small pistol primers. The Lil Gun powder is a wonderful thing in the hornet and out of the Savage gives me an avg of 2800 fps with 12.5 gr and the Sierra 45 gr varminter. You will find this is not max in most manuals. I like my 22 mag and love my 223 CZ, but get the most kicks out of the ancient one.

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

Yes, the issue of Hornet brass thiness comes up on almost every equivocal or non supportive post.

At the outset, I will purchase factory ammo. Once fireformed to Hornet K, will use moderate loads.While most posters mention shortening the life of cases by stuffing too many grains into a Hornet case, the speed of the cartridge , plus the additional ? speed would not do a great deal for barrel life.

As 221s are so scarce, it is difficult to borrow or range test one to see if it may fit in my priorities.

Brass life will not be an issue as I have said. It never ceases to amaze me why people attempt to put mega grains over the top in reloaded rounds, just asking for trouble of some kind.

Will need a scope, I guess something like a Bushnell Elite 4200 4-9x40 or Leupold VXII would be OK.

Then again, may wait until Optic Zone have another special on Zeiss and buy another Conquest 4-9x40.

A Marlin 22mag is hard to beat for the money. The new plus p stuff is running right around 2500fps. It is very easy to get sub MOA with the premium stuff at 100yards. Much quieter than anything you mentioned. Any of the rounds you listed are wonderful. Flip a coin. I would opt for a K-Hornet over the standard. A 221 has a 223 bolt face so you are not as limited with action choices.

Crowrifle ,
PM sent .

Just a note to all who have been referencing the "Old" Savage in Hornet. Savage ecurrently offers a Hornet chambered rifle The Model 40 Varmint Hunter.
http://www.savagearms.com/40Varmint.htm

My only issue with it is that I think it's a single shot and right now I'm looking for a repeater action.

Do a search on Blue Dot powder and 223. Seafire has done a bit of work with this powder in the 223 and other calibers.

I worked up several loads with 40 - 45 gr bullets in my 223 with Blue dot and was amazed. Low noise and accuracy was amazing.

With this combination you can use your current 223.

I have to agree with Crowhunter BUT the Fireball is much more flexible I have loaded for the Fireball for 30 years and it can be HOT RODDED 3600 fps w/ LIT" Gun and the 40 gr or slowed down to Hornet velocities w/ 2015 or 22 LR w/ SR 4759 and still be very accurate. I have killed deer( NOT RECOMMENDED) Turkey, Groundhogs, Fox, crows ,Gray Squirrels,Fox Spuirrels etc with the Fireball and it has always done as good as any cartridge.
I do not own any of the CZ 527 but have and still do own a Bruno in the Hornet and it is a 3/4" rifle. The Fireball will cut that in half and the brass is much more consistant .

I may or may not purchase a .221 Fireball.

If I do , I will handload, once I have some supervised lessons!

Living in Australia, it is more likely than not that I would use the ADI reloader powders.

If any readers of this Forum and thread are familiar with ADI powders, could they please give me the equivalents to the powders that have been mentioned.

Robert ,
Blue Dot is available here . Alliant powders imported by Wesfire .
Lil Gun isn't available . Not sure about the others mentioned .

I have a cz 527 22 hornet and love it,with 40grn vmax and 13.2 grns lilgun 3000fps it shoots.3 sometines .2 at 100 yards I shot a woodchuck yesterday with it at 250 yards killed him dead try that with a 22mag LOL and for a lighter load i use sierra 45s and 10.6 grns reloader7 2200fps and that shoots around a half inch at a 100 and i'm on my 7th time reloading the cases without trimming the lilgun has half the pressure of the other powders, years ago I use to trim the cases almost everytime using 296 and 2400. i also use it in my rem 700 lvsf 221 fireball wich is extremly accurate.

Have you had any work done to the Cz eg barrel float etc.

Pretty acccurate version of a calibre allegedly ( not by me) guilty of being antiquated, not all that accurate and passed over by the years and newer calibres.

Hi The only thing I did was sand the barrel channel on the right side to free float it and they all seem to be that way I didn't even shoot it till then and after I did that I did away with the set trigger and polished the sear and set it at 1 1/2 lbs and I glass bedded it. But when I just cleaned up the barrel channel it shot great better than the anshutz I had, less than a half inch.I am a gunsmith and the trigger is really easy to adjust and you might like the single set but I just like triggers without the set, but all of these guns we sold everybody loves them with no complaints and they are resonable about 429.00

One more thing I use this gun for fox and I shot one at 200 yards and it took the heart and lungs right out with a good size hole infact there was nothing behind the shoulder half way down just a 5" x 5" hole. I'm gonna try the lighter load more fur freindly and my fireball cuts them in half almost,but dynamite on coyotes

Unless it was a secret brew, what grain bullet and powder did you used to blow up the fox?

I am looking at a Hornet as I will be shooting mainly rabbits and foxes; the Hornet has all the killing power I need and , whilst I do not keep pelts, hitting them with a hand grenade seems a bit over the top.

Others have suggested getting the Fireball and using Hornet like loads to reduce noise ( a big issue) and less game wipeout.

I think there may be a lot of trial and error and do not want to reduce loads to much as to stuff up the ballistics.

Fireballs seem pretty thin where I live, Melbourne Australia, as I simply would like to see how loud the firing "crack" is compared to a Hornet as we have some relatively close and nervous neighbours , even though our "hobby farm' is over 600 acres.

Hi well the fireball is lowder but I think for what your doing the hornet would be great the brass is cheap about half the cost of the fireball and you could load it down the load i used for the fox was a 40grn hornady vmax and 13.2 grns lilgun 3000fps and if you want something less powerful and about as lowd as a 22mag but with more power use 10.6grns of rel 7 and a 45 or 40 sierra hornet bullet.i'm trying some winchester 46grn hp now just ordered them at 6.00 a 100 so i can shoot cheaper.I'll tell you theses CZ rifles shoot better than most guns I've shot there barrels are hand lapped and really easy to clean and they have 2 locking lugs like a high power rifle.In fact I just ordered a new CZ 527 varmint in 204 for myself they are a great gun I like their 22s also.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball10x:
One more thing I use this gun for fox and I shot one at 200 yards and it took the heart and lungs right out with a good size hole infact there was nothing behind the shoulder half way down just a 5" x 5" hole. I'm gonna try the lighter load more fur freindly and my fireball cuts them in half almost,but dynamite on coyotes

Have you tried the 50 gr. Barnes X-bullet? I bet that the exit hole would be much smaller, while keeping the quick kills.

The Hornet and K version are troublesome cartridges that will give short case life and spotty accuracy.

If it were not for its cute name 'Hornet' it would have been gone long ago. I thought the Hornet was all done when the 222 came out but the thing is still haunting us.

Use reduced loads. What guns do you have now? Anything in .224" or even 6mm can be loaded down.

Savage99, you are really down on the Hornet, as evidenced by this post and others over the years.

You gotta treat the Hornet as you would a beautiful woman. Understand that she is unique and to be gently coaxed into giving her all. But once you find the right mix, she's yours forever.

Hi woodracer no I havn't tried the barnes in the hornet i have used them for bigger guns i think the 50 would slow it down alot the 40 shoots pretty flat if i use 50s i use the fireball.Those fox are pretty fragile about the only thing i didn't do alot of damage with is a 22lr win power point at 50 yards my reduced load with the 45 sierras at 2200 might not destroy them.I shot 2 of them with my 22-250 and that destroyed them and the fireball is pretty nasty on them .How do you like your 6mm ai? i'm building one now for long range woodchucks [/IMG]

22-250

quote:

Originally posted by crowrifle:
Savage99, you are really down on the Hornet, as evidenced by this post and others over the years.

You gotta treat the Hornet as you would a beautiful woman. Understand that she is unique and to be gently coaxed into giving her all. But once you find the right mix, she's yours forever.

I have tried to make an analogy to cars, boats and other things when talking guns and I am not as skilled as you and others in expressing myself that way.

If I was emotional over the Hornet then call me on it. It's just that I have owned them and watched others with Hornets and I find it a problem cartridge.

One of our club members was a gunsmith at Winchesters in New Haven for thirty years. He had a lathe in his house and did barrel work etc.

He bought a new Ruger 77 <--? or whatever it's numbered bolt rifle in 22 Hornet and he was shooting it for a couple of years. I teased him on it and he did not like that either.

My 'Hornet' load for most .224" cartridges is the 50% rule with IMR's SR 4759. For instance load a light bullet for the caliber (40 gr in your 223) and use half the normal charge weight of regular powder but substitute 4759. Such loads produce about Hornet velocities and are easy and accurate. Such a load for the 223 using 4759 would be 28grs/2 = 14 grs of 4759.

Good luck.

I've fooled around with several Hornets over the years and never had one that would consistently group into an inch at 100 yds. That said, I wouldn't be without one. If one wants a light, accurate-enough-for-chucks-(inside of 150yds.)-rifle to carry along on an evening stroll it's your baby. Had a K-Hornet chambered in a 1922M2 Springfield once. Wouldn't reccomend it!! Couldn't keep firing pins in it. A fresh pin would last maybe 20 rds, then break. It got parted out. Wish I would have at least hung onto the action and stock!

here is a 7 shot group with my CZ 527 american with a 4x12x40 bushnell on it.[IMG:top] [/IMG][IMG:top] [/IMG]

Lil Gun rules in the Hornet and K-Hornet. My Contender does about 1.5" with the Vmax, but the crows, pigeons and fox, ect. don't seem to care.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball10x:
22-250

Talk about a GUT BUSTER!!!

Jeah, I know, that was just WRONG.



My 6mm Ackley is one heck of a shooter. It is a bench only gun that Darrell Holland built for me. It looks JUST LIKE this one:
I have a 6.5-20x50mm VXIII Leupy mounted on Mark 4 rings on it on Baer 20 MOA bases, along with a Jewell trigger that I set up myself, and the barrel is a 3 groove 1/7" Lilja set up for 107gr. MK Sierras. My front rest is even identical as the one in the pic except mine is cast IRON and not cast aluminum. My bags are brown leather, and yessirree, I use the Wilson Handdies as well. Let's just say, IT SHOOTS!!!

Hi Woodsracer that gun is sweet,what are you using for brass?I just bought a savage long range precision varminter in 22-250 and i'm getting 6mmai 1-12 twist barrel for shooting 87grn vmax bullets I just bought a nightforce 12x42x56 scope for it,I'm gonna shoot the 22-250 barrel until I get the new 6mm AI