looking to load a few for zombie time and plinking. what do you think of the 69gr smk for 2 legged bad guys?

The military uses this (or did) for sniper use.

If you are using it for a target load it works great.

If you want it for self defense, its not so good. The military is abiding by rules for land warfare that you don't have to. Get a hollow point or hunting bullet, it will be much more terminally effective.

75gr Hornady is better.

A lot of Police Depts have used it and some are going to the 75gr MK as well.

The 69 MK has worked ok in actual shootings, but if your ranges are under 300 yards I would prefer Winchester 55 gr Ballistic Tips.

If you want a little more penetration and to shoot through glass try the Federal 62gr Tactical Load. It is a Trophy Bonded bullet, or the Nosler Partition load.

62gr or 70gr TSX is far more lethal and every bit as accurate.

Perry

if i had the scratch i would go 70gr tsx. but that is a pretty pricey route for bulk ammo.

If you're looking to kill someone, there are much better choices than the .223. Even with the magic bullets that are supposed to move them out of the varmint round category.

Yea, like the 308. Nobody walks away from a solid hit with the .308 and it matters none if its a 110gr or a 175gr bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
if i had the scratch i would go 70gr tsx. but that is a pretty pricey route for bulk ammo.

I would recommend something like the 62 gr. TSX or the Nosler 60 gr. Partition.

But if you want to go cheap....then I'd say the Win. 64 gr. PP is your best choice.

adding weight (and twist) to 223/5.56 loads will not ever make it into an effective anti-personell round.

Will it wound? Yep.

will it kill? absolutely.

will it reliably STOP a bad guy from shooting back? are you smoking crack?

as mentioned above the 22caliber round was chosen based on flawed decisions and there was a huge volume of hyperbole to support the decision at the time.
the sticking with it as a military round is primarily for economic and logistic reasons, with the additional factor of being unable to admit they are/were wrong.

All things considered the 30Carbine is likely a better anti personel round (and that is hardly a ringing endorsement of either cartridge)
but the 30Carbine with soft point ammo is effectively indistinguishable from the 357mag!

Here's a suggestion on how to choose....
Frankly for two legged varmints any round you wouldn't use to kill a whitetail shouldn't be used to stop "two legged varmints"

Personally I've used a 223 to kill whitetails, a heavy varmint rifle, but I will only headshoot an unalerted whitetail doe....
But having to use such fire decipline rules in a self defense scenario is suicidal.


AD

After Katrina I gave this a lot of thought.
I trade all but one of the 223 for 308 (a Springfield soc and bushmaster). Having 40 rounds in the mag is not good if you can t shoot trough cars or brick walls. FMJ in 223 or not great stoppers, but the 147 FMJ in 308 will do it all. When some of the bad guys may be wearing vest the 308 is a better choice.

JD

Here's a good article on the heavier bullets in .223. It's an excellent read for anyone interested in this.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/S...o_FAQ/index.htm#.223

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
looking to load a few for zombie time and plinking. what do you think of the 69gr smk for 2 legged bad guys?

Nobody has really answered your question.

The Sierra Match King has always been a very accurate bullet for me and for your plinking at long range, would be fantastic.

Since the Zombies need head shots to put them down and the bullet is a frangible target bullet, it will work perfectly. Zombie's craniums are softer since decomposition has begun so penetration will not be an issue even at longer ranges when kinetic energy starts to wain.

Love the spaceship

25gr Varget auto work well on those soft tissued zombies!

Considering the magnificent pile of dead the 5.56 has piled up over the years I have to say yes on 2 legged varmints and zombies. I believe the 69 gr. Matchking has been used as a sniping round by the military in recent years.

69-77 grain OTM/SMK are used by military due to the G.C. not their lethality. Since our current conflicts are not with GC countries SOCOM has switched their inventories to the TSX in both their carbines and sniper rifles. For awhile Delta was using the Hornady TAP but has since switched to the TSX for it's better barrier capabilities. In the 7.62 they are using the BHM 168 TSX and in the 5.56 the 70 TSX. They are not cheap but both are reliable expanders, extremely accurate and terminally superior to anything else out there.

For plinking and zombies, one round reload, I agree with Daman in the 64gr winchester.

Perry

45-70 50gr rx7 400gr speer. kills on both ends.

I can say that chest shots, with the typical 55 gr Soft point or Hollow Point 223 factory ammo have performed very well in actual Police shootings.

The MOST important thing is to be SURE that you ammo will feed in YOUR AR.

For example, I have seen AR's that caused the 55 gr Remington SP and Fededral 69 gr Match bullets to be pushed back into the case causing failures to feed, while other AR's fed both of those bullets fine.

True mil-spec M-193 55 gr. ball, fragments fairly reliably out to two hundred yards. If them zombies are further out than that, get a 308 or run away!

Barrier penetration is a factor we consider and therefore use Federal Law Enforcement bonded. We tested this among others at Quantico and felt that this was the best load for us and our use on two legged creatures with that cartridge. I am not a fan of the 223, but dumping a person is much easier than dumping a deer. You may not see a classic expansion of the bullet when hitting a two legged creature center mass, but with proper shot placement, it will put them down.

Flip side of the coin, there is an old saying about using a 5.56 rifle in combat:

"If I had two, I'd sh*# on one , and I'd bury and cover it with the other."

Best

I've used the M-16 in 5.56, and can attest it works just fine. It's not a 30-06. Then again, an M-1 is not an M-16. Shoot twice. Then again.
Shotgun

[/QUOTE]


Nobody has really answered your question.

The Sierra Match King has always been a very accurate bullet for me and for your plinking at long range, would be fantastic.

Since the Zombies need head shots to put them down and the bullet is a frangible target bullet, it will work perfectly. Zombie's craniums are softer since decomposition has begun so penetration will not be an issue even at longer ranges when kinetic energy starts to wain.

[/QUOTE]

Better to have a good 22lr for zombie head shots. They penetrate and rattle inside the brain. Plus you can carry a few thousand rounds of ammo on you. I have an Stg-556 and a Mini 14 but my Sig 522 is probably my best zombie gun. Now I just need to get a silencer for it so as not to attract other zombies with gun fire.

Not sure what type Zombies you will be shooting, but one of the rules of war, is that it is better to wound than kill, because a wounded target will require 3 or 4 Zombies to take care of it, while single kills only take out 1 combatant.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:Better to have a good 22lr for zombie head shots. They penetrate and rattle inside the brain. Plus you can carry a few thousand rounds of ammo on you. I have an Stg-556 and a Mini 14 but my Sig 522 is probably my best zombie gun. Now I just need to get a silencer for it so as not to attract other zombies with gun fire.

I would keep the silencer off in that case. Attracting more zombie targets is the point!!

I wish gunfire attracted coyotes!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:Better to have a good 22lr for zombie head shots. They penetrate and rattle inside the brain. Plus you can carry a few thousand rounds of ammo on you. I have an Stg-556 and a Mini 14 but my Sig 522 is probably my best zombie gun. Now I just need to get a silencer for it so as not to attract other zombies with gun fire.

I would keep the silencer off in that case. Attracting more zombie targets is the point!!

I wish gunfire attracted coyotes!

Just be careful you don't get overrun.

Crazyhorseconsulting
This why our troops prefer the head shot on the current enemy! The 5.56mm makes that possible! Remember the lefty media made a big deal about how many terrorist were turning up with holes between there eye's! One to the melon makes the 5.56mm a very effective man stopper! And being a 5.56mm it makes that kind of shot very easy to do! I use the 2-1 shot placement all the time! If two to the chest don't stop em one to the melon does every time!!

I can also say the the Winchester 55 gr Ballistic Silvertips, never gave us any overpenetration problems, even on "indoor" shootings.

["Back in the day" the Winchester 55 gr Soft Point worked perfect for us as well].

I use the same combo i use for deer hunting with the ars for my self defense load. Its the 60 grain partition and 24 grains of 748. I use alot of ball bullets and other soft points but when the job is serious and an ar is in my hands thats the load that has been proven to really work.

Department wise we are using Federal TRU 55gr --- comes loaded with Sierra Game King....seems to be just fine. But I prefer a tad heavier. I really like the LE Hornady 5.56 TAP w. 75gr.

But Hornady wont sell the boooolit

quote:

The 5.56mm makes that possible! Remember the lefty media made a big deal about how many terrorist were turning up with holes between there eye's

It wasn't the 5.56mm that made the headshots possible, it was the improved optics. The studies showed that many terrorist were sticking up just their heads, and our soilders were making regular headshots at ranges around 300. In the old days of just iron sights, the terorist might of been safe, but today, with modern optics, it results in a dead badguy. According to one General, the introduction of modern optics to the battlefield has been the single biggest contribution to effectiveness of the American fighting man since the introduction of the M1 Garand.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:

what do you think of the 69gr smk for 2 legged bad guys?

If it's good enough for USASOC it ought to be good enough for you.
.223 CAL/5.56 MM Sierra MatchKing Ammunition

quote:

Quantity: 161,000 rounds; Description: .223 CAL Ammunition, Commercial .223 spec ammunition in commercial brass is required 69-Grain. SHALL be Brand Name Only, Sierra Match King; velocity 2850 FPS, Sierra Match King 69 Grain is required due to the weight, type, dimension, charge and accuracy of this ammunition. Muzzle velocity shall not exceed 2850 fps, energy should be 1245 Ft. Lbs. Ammunition is used in a Sniper System Weapon and accuracy is of utmost importance, therefore, charge weights should be consistent for accuracy. ... Open Tip Match (OTM) and Boat Tailed ammunition is required.

This will add to LMD's post. The "Ammo Oracle".

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

My EOTWAWKI load is the 75 Hornady match pushed to NATO specs; great for Zombies.

Alan

Ive not gone to the war but friends report than in 8 to 20" barrels people shot with 5.56 stay shot. And "it rips peoples fucking faces off!" that's verbatim.

The 69gr ammo may have made it to war but 77gr stuff is normal now. It was introduced to stretch the range of the mk12 spr. A friend reports success with his to 800m and hasn't taken his 110 out of the case since mid 2009.

Sure 7.62 hits harder. It's just more than a rifleman needs to carry. Real firepower comes on belts anyway.

By the way some of you could benefit from a professional ballistics lab. You'd be surprised at which parts of a car you can shoot through best and which rounds really work. I will take an 11.5" m4 over an m16 any day--much better penetration.

Shooting 10mm mild steel plates at 200m with both 5.56 & 7.62 NATO FMJ had the smaller bullet penetrating more often than not, whereas the 7.62 only penetrated occasionally.
Rifles were AR15 & FAL with full length barrels.

Was that ball or SS109 with the steel penetrator?

How does Prvi Partizan M193 rate? I'm looking at putting it through a 16 inch 1x9 twist barrel. I have heard M193 fragments which would be good for two legged bad guys that aren't armored up. Does 77gr ammunition tumble? Hmmm .....

The 77gr OTM doesn't need to tumble, it expands and fragments.

Sid,

Tumbling is a design characteristic of the bullet, and has little to do with weight. Cross section the bullet, if it has a large air pocket at the point with a relatively thin jacket it will almost certainly tumble.

M193 works. It's not fancy but a lot of people have been laid low with it.

77gr does tumble. It turns sideways and falls appart. It's massive sideways profile is why it fragments dramatically.