Which has proven more accurate between the two? How do they compare in terms of velocity? The 20 Tactical is a necked down and improved 223 case, and 204 is a necked down and improved 223 rem mag case. I see that the 204 is probably a bit faster, but by how much, and which is more accurate? The 223 case is cheaper to get.

Colorado Matt: Brass is no longer a problem with the 204 Ruger there is plenty of Winchester and Remington brass out there now. And I have a couple friends that insist on using 222 Remington Magnum brass to make their 204 Ruger ammo from since day one!
That was probably a typo there when you made reference to the 223 Remington Magnum. The 204 Ruger is of course based on the 222 Remington Magnum brass.
I sure love my 204 Ruger Rifles and the performance of the 204 cartridge!
I personally have had nothing to do with a Tactical 20 as yet.
There is a GREAT 20 caliber site over at 6mmBR.com (I will try to post the link for you) and one of this forums members has written a great article covering all the 20 caliber cartridges (well most of them anyway) there.
Heres the link: http://www.6mmbr.com/page/page.cfm/index

Don't hesitate any longer get a 204 or a 20 something in your arsenal before spring!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

The .20 tactical is a custom only and as such should be slightly more accurate as all of them are custom made. Other than that there's nothing physical about the cases that would make one more accurate over the other.

I made a .20 Tactical a few years before Hornady hit the streets with the .204 Ruger. As soon as the .204 was official I got a reamer from Dave Kliss and rechambered my Tactical to the standard chambering. It was on a Rem 700 ADL and a shilen #3 contour 22" barrel and neither of the chamberings performed well for me.

I sold the barrel and reinstalled the .223 original barrel and also sold the entire original rifle.

I'm sticking with the .223 remington as I can drive 40 grain pills at nearly the same velocity as the .204 and it's just plain cheaper

If I was to do it again I'd custom chamber to the 20 tactical and leave it. The .223 case is so very cheap that it makes all the difference.

Hornady errored seriously when they decided against the .223 case as a base. I suspect they'd have to have paid royalties to the woodchuck den however and decided to evade that.

quote:

I'm sticking with the .223 remington as I can drive 40 grain pills at nearly the same velocity as the .204 and it's just plain cheaper

how do you get close to that speed? 3,600 is the best i can do with a .223/40 gr.

quote:

Originally posted by crow_sniper:

quote:

I'm sticking with the .223 remington as I can drive 40 grain pills at nearly the same velocity as the .204 and it's just plain cheaper

how do you get close to that speed? 3,600 is the best i can do with a .223/40 gr.

Nosler 4 40 Gr Nosler 27.0 Gr. of VV N133 3812 fps. But your right it's still 200+ fps short at best even if the .204 has a slow barrel and the .223 would still have a lower BC .200 Vs the .20's .275.

That roughly translates to:

20 .275 -14.9 2492 MV @ 400 Yrds.

.223 .200 -21 1922 MV @ 400 Yrds.

Glad you asked.....a 40 grain V-Max in front of 27.8 grains of AA2460 yields 3,800'/sec in a
223

It's listed in the Hornady manual...check it out.

20 Tactical is far more efficient. Kindler claims it can be loaded to much higher pressures and will beat the .204......

Let the games begin.......

IV

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Glad you asked.....a 40 grain V-Max in front of 27.8 grains of AA2460 yields 3,800'/sec in a
223

It's listed in the Hornady manual...check it out.

That still makes you 570 fps slower than the .204 at 400 yards and 6.1 inches lower.

VapoDog: The Accurate Arms folks list for the 223 Remington 28.0 grs. of AA 2460 as being maximum and giving 3,675 FPS with the 40 gr. bullets.
They do show one hotter load with their 2015 powder giving a 40 gr. bullet out of a 223 3,746 FPS but at 52,000 C.U.P.!
Lot of pressure there.
Anyway I've known the 223 Remington for a very long time (40 years now!) and believe me its no 204 Ruger!
Those AA powder loads giving you 3,675 FPS or 3,746 FPS or even 3,800 FPS are much slower than even the factory loading in the 204 Ruger at 4,200 FPS and the 204's bullets have superior ballistic coefficient numbers (in other words they fly not only faster but flatter, straighter and have higher RPM's once striking the animal which also contributes to lethality on game by the way).
I wish your first experience with the 204 had been better but thats water under one bridge. I STRONGLY advise you to give the 204 Ruger another try!
Not only was Hornady and Rugers decision to use the 222 Remington Magnum case as a base for the 204 NOT an "error"! It was a stroke of absolute genius! Just be patient and wait for more "handloaders" to get the most out of this new cartridge! I am sure you will be seeing loads at and above 4,300 FPS from the 204! I already have!
The 204 Ruger is simply one of the best small caliber cartridges ever made!
Incredible ballistic performance from such a small case!
Amazing lethality, again, from that small 204 case!
And its inherently accurate. I have three Rifles in 204 Ruger caliber and each is VERY accurate indeed!
I have personally seen 7 other Rifles in 204 Ruger caliber belonging to my close friends perform and they also are splendidly accurate!
I have as yet to see an "inaccurate" factory 204 Ruger. There is no doubt "one" out there somewhere but I have certainly not seen it!
Don't get me wrong the 223 Remington is a fine, useful and accurate cartridge as well but its NOT a 204 Ruger!
You mentioned cheap brass if I recall correctly in your post. I just bought some 204 Ruger brass made by Remington for $13.10 per 100 at Sportsmans Warehouse in Missoula, Montana! Thats about $1.10 more than Remington 223 brass - a penny apiece more for 204 brass is of absolutely no consequence to me! I turn on the ignition of my VarmintMobile (Dodge 4x4 diesel) and I've blown a buck right there! Nope, brass costs and availability do not enter into my thinking for either the 204 or the 223 anymore!
Long live the 204 Ruger
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I wonder how Kindler figures the 223 brass is all that much stronger than 204 ? It would seem to me they are basically the same stuff ?

As to the Tact being way more "efficient" , the load data I've seen uses within 2 grains or so of the 204 powder charges . Big deal .

And as VG stated the 204 brass runs about the same price as commercial 223 , you have to use surplus 223 to shade the 204 there.

It's obvious the boys are running the wildcat to much higher pressures to "beat" the 204 . I'll take the reasonable price and easy availability of the factory rifles , factory brass ,and standard priced dies , over the wildcat stuff for my purposes........

If you want less fuss and the ability to buy your ammo go with the 204. They are both really two peas in a pod and very close in performance.

If you want something really fast in the .204 caliber and still efficient look at the 20BR. I just put one together and it makes the Tactical 20 and the 204 Ruger look downright slow.

I have not worked up a fast load yet for the 39-40's but I have two loads that go over 4500 fps with the 32 grain Vmax.

Fastest load was 32.6 grains of Benchmark, Fed 205 primer, Lapua 6mmBR brass, 32 grain vmax, outside temperature 32 degrees, little wind and elevation of 5000ft.

Average speed was 4675 with a couple going over 4700fps! Accuracy was under .5 MOA but it was better when things were backed down to 4500 fps.
N133 also shot outstanding groups at 4500 fps. Rifle is a Savage with SSS 26" barrel.

No pressure signs were present but further testing in warmer temperatures will be done this spring.

Mike.

Stormbringer: I read the great article on the 20 caliber cartridges by Kory Hamzeh over on 6mmBR.com and he mentions the only drawback he could find with the 20 BR was the extra (or excessive - I forget what term he used) rearward bolt thrust when using the 20 BR cartridge. Apparently the short fat case of the 20 BR thrusts back at the bolt much more so than the longer leaner case of the 20 Tactical and the 204 Ruger.
Cartridge case strength issues have NOT popped up in any of my 204 Ruger Rifles as yet. Of course I am a notorious "non-hotrodder" when it comes to my reloading.
Do you have any thoughts on Kory's observations about the extra bolt thrust of the 20 BR?
Long live the 20's!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

hi iam luck in that i own a rifle in both cal. my cooper-21-20 tactical will out shot my rem.700vssfII 204 r by a 1/4 inch or more.Velocity is about the same for the two caliber;s for me the 20-tac will do anything the 204r and do it easier with the neck being longer.The short neck on 204r can be a problem with the 32 gr. bullets.One more thing the only reason there is a 204r is because TOOD KINDLER made the 20-tac and a hole slue of other 20cal.cartriges . ALL YOU 204R SHOOTERS SAY THANK YOU TOOD.

VG - I have not as yet noticed any excessive bolt thrust issues but I am really just getting started with the cartridge and more time is needed to see how it goes. I will be doing some more load work this weekend (and maybe a little field testing too). A hunting buddy Dave Afflec DAA has used the 20BR more than I and also shoots the 22BR but he has never mentioned any problems.

I will post the results of my load work when I get a chance. I do have a fair amount of experience with the 6mm BR and can say it has never given me any bolt thrust issues. 6mmBR.com is a great site. I have a Ruger #1 posted on the "Gun of the Week" section and they feature some of my thoughts on the 6mmBR for varmint hunting in the reloading section.

Mike

It is true that the Benchrest case will have somewhat more bolt thrust than a 222/223/204 sized case , but it is nothing to get excited about . You will have no more bolt thrust than any garden variety 22/250 or 243 sized case and it will be well within the design limits of any common action that can be built for these cartridges .

Kindler's loads seem to be on the warm side for everything. A 204 holds more powder so with all things being equal a 204 has a velocity advantage. As far as accuracy goes, the platform will decide that. I doubt in a well built custom rifle or a Cooper/Dakota semi-custom I doubt there would be a difference in accuracy with tuned handloads. IMO a tight chambered Tac20 with a match barrel pushing 70Klbs of chamber pressure you could run velocity very close or faster than factory loaded 204 Ruger loads. Tac20 is a very cool round. You will have to buy a custom rig of some sort and get expensive dies. IMO I might opt for the 204 in a custom rig with a tight chamber and put the money for the dies into glass. I think you will be very pleased either way

Stormbringer: I went back to the 6mm BR site and checked out your Rifle and your comments.
Bravo to both! That is a beautiful #1 and I agree totally with your happiness with the 6mm BR in the Varminting arena and at the range (the 6mm BR is a VERY accurate round!).
One of the greatest and most versatile Varmint rounds ever produced - is the 6mm Remington Bench Rest!
I have a full custom 6mm BR heavy Varminter built on a Remington XP-100 action and I also enjoy my pair of Remington 40XB-BR Rifles in 22 Remington Bench Rest!
All righty then Stormbringer I will have to fess right up and admit it - I am oblivious and ignorant of just why and what is this bolt thrust in the short squatty fat BR cases in the first place.
I have never heard of any 6mm BR's or 22 BR's suffering from bolt fatigue or action fatigue (from excessive bolt thrust?) so I was hoping you would have shed some light on this condition (phenomenon?). You didn't.
I guess I could just ask Kory as well?
Continued success with your 6mm BR and your 20 BR is my wish for you!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

20 tac: Thanks for your posting regarding the comparitive accuracy of your two Rifles!
Could you be more specific as to average (or best!) group sizes with your Rifles?
Thanks in advance.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

HI MY COOPER LIKES IMI BRASS-BR-4,H-4198,24.0,AND 32VMAX 4141 FPS.SHOTS .270 AT 100 YDS.AND WITH 40VMAX.-NOSLER BRASS-7.5,H-4198,23.0 3715FPS. SHOTS.236 AT 100 YDS.MY REM.700VSSF II 204R SHOT 205M-WIN BRASS-RL-10,26.6,32 SIERRA BK.SHOTS .535 AT 100YDS. AT 4080 FPS.WITH THE 39 SIERRA BK. IT LIKES,205M,RL-10,25.7,AT 3856FPS.AND SHOTS .671 AT 100 YDS. THE COOPER HAS 783 SHOTS THRU IT AND THESE ARE THE MOST ACCURATE LOAD TO DATE,THE REM. HAS 528 SHOTS THRU IT AND LIKE THE COOPER THESE ARE THE MOST ACCURATE LOADS SO FAR.RL-10,AND H-4198 ARE THE BEST POWDER;S FOR THESE TWO CALIBERS. ALL LOADS ARE SAFE IN MY RIFLES BUT BACK OFF 10% AND LOAD UP TO SEE IF THEY WILL WORK FOR YOU. HAPPINESS IS A ONE HOLE GROUP . 20-TAC

VG and others!! I guess I should just rechamber my Savage VLP that only does .440 at 500 yards(not a typo!!! 500 yards!!!!!!!) with the 39 grain Sierra .204 at 3791fps ahead or 27.5 grains of Accurate 2520!!! Put it in y'alls ballistic programs!!! A lot of groundhogs would like to see you prove it wrong!!! I shot the 6x47 30 years ago...if it hadn't been for a couple high dollar Drs coming up with the litle PPC's the 6x47 would still rule the BR circuit!! And then there was the original 222MAG!!! It also performed quite well on the BR circuit!!(y'all check your history books!!) and the .204 is just another variation of a great case design!!! The .223 got chosen over the .222MAG because in 1962-3, Mike Walker of Remington was supposed to design a case that would work in the military's amall arms automatic(semi auto) arms! The .223 worked better due to it's short neck and shoulder angle!! But it was never equal to the 222MAG!!!! Go ahead!! Make my day!! Show up at the bench with your .223!!! The 40 X in 222MAG will make you take a second look!!! 1000's of groundhogs can't be wrong!!! They're dead!! The .204 is just an extenuation of a great case design!! I love mine!!! But then I'm prejudice I reckon!! Must be something about being from the south!!! GHD

quote:

I guess I should just rechamber my Savage VLP that only does .440 at 500 yards

No but you'd better get on the BR circuit because your a potential world record holder.

20-TAC-- I had trouble reading your ALL CAP post so I took the liberty of doing a wee bit of editing. Sorry if you take offense to my editing, but ALL CAPS posts drive me nuts

Hi: My Cooper likes IMI brass, BR-4 primers, 24.0 gr. of H-4198, and 32 gr. V-Max. Velocity was 4,141 fps. It shot .270″ at 100 yds.

With 40 gr. V-Max., Nosler brass, Remington 7 ½ primers and 23.0 gr. of H-4198 the velocity was 3,715 fps. It shot .236″ at 100 yds.

My Rem. 700 VSSF II in .204 Ruger shooting 205M primers in WW brass using 26.6 gr. of Reloder 10X powder and 32 gr. Sierra BK. It shot .535″ at 100yds and velocity was 4,080 fps.

With the 39 gr. Sierra BK it liked the 205M primers, 25.7 gr. of Reloder 10X, and got 3,856 fps. It shot .671″ at 100 yds.

The Cooper has 783 shots thru it and these are the most accurate load to date.

The Rem. has 528 shots thru it and like the Cooper these are the most accurate loads so far.

Reloder 10X and H-4198 are the best powders for these two calibers. All loads are safe in my rifles, but back off 10% and load up to see if they will work for you. Happiness is a one hole group. 20-tac

20 Tac: I got your load info loud and clear there!
Wonderful group there with the Cooper of .236"! Good for you and the Cooper Rifle! Nice shooting.
I have copied your 204 Ruger loading info for my loading log reference section!
Thanks again.
I think I would be happy with the Remington's performance there as well!
I have shot 7 different groups in the 3's with my various 204 Ruger Rifles so far (no 2's or better)! I am VERY happy with the way these Rifles have performed at the range. Again I am using Varmint bullets, Varmint scopes and all factory stock Rifles to get this level of performance!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Looks like you have two good shooters there in the wonderful 204 Ruger caliber!

Groundhog devastation: I admit openly and freely that many Savage Rifles shoot well.
Having said that I have never owned one!
Life is just to short to be seen in public shooting an ugly Rifle!
You started it!
I do though agree totally on the inherent accuracy of the 222 Remington Magnum, the 6x47 and the 204 Ruger! You are 100% right on there! But the topic is (was?) the 20 Tac vs. the 204 Ruger.
I see no reason why the 20 Tac in comparably priced, made or customized Rifles would not be at least as accurate as the exact same Rifle in 204 Ruger (or 222 Magnum!).
Remember that I shot my brand new Remington XR-100 Rifle in 223 Remington at 100 yards recently using Varmint style bullets (Berger 52's), Varmint style scope (Leupold 8.5x25x40mm), the factory trigger and these 58 year old eyes to produce an amazing .121" five shot group at 100 yards! While the .121" group I shot at 100 yards does not measure up to your .088 M.O.A. 500 yards three shot group I won't be shaking any sticks at my new XR-100!
I have had time now to look through all my old targets and loading data to verify that it is the best group I have fired with a non-custom, all factory stock Varmint Rifle (non-40X model)!
So the 223 (and many Remingtons!!!) can do some impressive things at the range as well. By the way I was using the LaPua brass in my 223 when I shot this nifty group.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy