Why hunt with small bore rifles? Because they work! The two photos above are of me and my son, with the results of our local mule deer hunts. My buck was taken at about 125 yards, running, with a new .25-06 Rem 700 CDL and a 100 grain Barnes TSX bullet. His doe was shot at a lazered 274 yards with a 6mm Remington 700 BDL and a 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip.

Decades ago when Roy Weatherby was still building Mauser action rifles in southern California, Grandpa had a Mauser 98 built in the brand new .257 Wby magnum. It lit a fire in our family for small-bore/high velocity deer, coyote and varmint rifles that continues today.

The darned things don't bark or kick much and don't go through much powder, but they sure put game on the ground.

When I was working up a load for my new .25-06 the good folks at Barnes bullets told me that they considered it a good elk cartridge, if using their TSX or X bullets! That kind of amazed me. Not sure I'm willing to push the .25-06 all the way to elk, but maybe... It sure makes a dynamite deer cartridge, as does the little 6mm Remington my son uses.

I just plain like these smallish bore rifles because they're fun to shoot and do a great job. Regards, Guy

M700,

Good looking boy, rifle, deer, truck and hat!

I agree completely.

couldn't agree more. I would rather have a million ethical hunters using small bores than to have one unethical hunter thinking that he can do anything because he has a big bore.

quote:

Why hunt with small bore rifles? Because they work!

yes sir....that's a fact!!!!

I agree with everything M700 says,
But if he droped the last 0 on his pen name I might vote for as our next president !
Just kidding 700s are good rifles, I just like model 70s a little better ...tj3006

Very good post M700, and I couldn't agree more. Up here in the upper midwest most people hunt as a way of life. It is something their fathers did and their fathers fathers did. In a some instances the firearms these hunters use have been handed down from father to son etc.

I for one didn't have that luxury. My father never owned a Centerfire Rifle, but rather did all of his hunting (even Whitetail Deer) with an old Savage/Stevens Model 311 12Ga. Dear old dad did take a couple Whitetails with Rifles, but they were borrowed and actually the last cople years he hunted.

When I became old enough to hunt my brother (15 years older than me) had just purchased a new Remington Model 742 chambered in 6mm Remington. I was in awe as it seemed every Whitetail Brother Rodney shot at crumpled at the crack of that rifle. As such when it came time for me to purchase my first Deer Rifle it just had to be a 6mm Remington.

I shot a lot of Whitetails with that old Remington Model 788 in 6mm Remington (wish I still had that rifle), and in the years since have used the following

.223 Remington
.22-250 Remington
.243 Winchester
.270 Winchester
.280 Remington
.30-06 Springfield

Plus the following in single shot handguns
.223 Remington
6mm-223
6mm T/CU
.243 Winchester
.250 Savage
7-30 Waters
7mm I.H.M.S.A.
.30-30 Winchester
.30-30 Ackley Improved
.44 Remington Magnum

All in all I have had just as many (or maybe more) one shot, drop em in their tracks kills with calibers of 6mm or less than I have with the bigger calibers. Seems with the larger calibers I would poke a bullet behind the front shoulder through the lungs and the Deer would run off a ways before expiring. With the smaller calibers it has always seemed to me that the bullets created more SHOK and as such put the animals down quicker.

I am quite sure there are a lot of people that would not agree with what i have just written, and or have different opinions. Well that is there option, after all if everyone used the same cartridge / gun for hunting we would not have many to choose from now days.

Thanks for sharing you experiences with us.

Larry

M700
Great Hunt and a very good choice of Rifles and
Cartriges.

Tommy Jones

I have alwasy Bought Remington and have never been dissaponited. The one day I wanted to give a WSSM a try and this is why I will only buy Remingtio0n in the future.

I bought a new in the box mod 70 .25 wssm. for whiteail and other small game. On my first trip to the range I brought some win factory loads 100gr supreme. When I fired them the bolt was difficult to lift the handle but I continued to zero the scope and the shoot some groups. This gun shot worst than any gun I have ever fired. 3-4 inches at 100 yards was the best group. so I checked the scope cleaned the gun and tried again another day the results were tyhe same. I could not belive my results so I took the gun to my gunsmith and had him remount the scope and then took the gun to a local guy that makes realy good custom ammo and left it with him to work up a load,after a few days He called me and said to come pick up my rifle that he could not make it shoot. I called winchester and the service people treated me like I was a idoit and were no help.Just told me to send them the rifle.
I talked to my gunsmith he said that in his experince that they would send the gun back and say there was nothing wrong with it. I belive Him after my conservation.
I'm stuck with a gun that I can't feal good about selling so I guese I'll let Kevin Weaver rebarrel and square my action. around $600.
Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Dr B

I did have a problem with accuracy with one Winchester M70, Five inch groups don't exactly thrill me. When I contacted Winchester, they said very terselt, "Take it to a gunsmith." I did, but then sent them a copy of the bill demanding payment. it's been two years now and they haven't paid up yet. Damned deadbeats.
After the gunsmith worked over the rifle, trigger job, glass bedding, the rifle still didn't shoot worth a damn. On a hunch, I switched scopes and the rifle became a total tackdriver. Everything I run through it is one inch or less. The only bullet it will not shoot good is the Winchester 150 gr. Powerpoint bulk bullets. They are total crap in my rifles, three 7x57s and one .280 Remington.
I guess the point of all this is try changing the scope. My rifle had a brand new Leupold 4X on it, and the scope was bad. I sent it back to Leupold and it was back in a week repaired and good as new. Just something you might give a thought to trying. All my Winchester M70s are quite accurate, so I suspect the problem might be in the scope itself.
Paul B.

Yes! The smaller bores do just as well as the mediums on our typical deer size critters, and they are so much easier on my arthritis! I've been using them =
6.5x54 7mm-08
6.5x55 7x57mm
.260 Remington 7x64m

all for several years now, and I plan to add the .257 Roberts and 6.5x57mm to the list shortly. All of these rounds make for serious "ethical hunting", great accuracy, less expensive, and fun

Also, for Paul B. Try 160 grain Nosler Accubonds in your 7x57mm. My Steyr loves them.

LLS

I've shot .308, 7mm-08, .30-06, and 9.3x62 on whitetail, and my standard rifle has been a Rem Model Seven "Junior Scout" in .260 Rem with 125-grain Nosler Partitions at 2700 fps.

This year I may decide to blood my new Merkel K-1 in 7x65R, loaded with 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at 2480 fps.

I Those are both great deer rounds,one of my favorite small rounds is the 6.5x55 with a 125gr nosler.
Nice to see a new hunter out enjoying what life is really about.

I like my WBY 257 Mag Shooting the Nosler partition 100gr bullets. A great deer cartridge.

I have 3 Winchester 70s in 25 WSSM and the 2 that I have shot are among the most accurate out-of-the-box rifles that I've ever shot. Since I am a gun dealer and pretend to be a small time gun mechanic, I have had the opportunity to shot well over 1,000 different rifles. These 2 Winchesters are just plain outstanding. All I did to them was adjust the trigger, easy to do on a Winchester 70, and relived the pressure points in the barrel channel. I didn't even work up loads, just bought a couple of boxes of Winchester 115 grain SBT ammo at Scheel's, paying attention to buy from the same production lot, and went to the range. After bore-sighting the scopes, a Leupold VX2 2-7x33 and a Weaver V10, both mounted in Warne rings and bases, I was able to shoot multiple 3-shot groups that shaded 1" at 100 yards. I couldn't be happier with a rifle than I am with my 70 stainless Ulimate Shadow in 25 WSSM. Actually, I was so happy, I bought a 3rd Winchester 70 stainless Ultimate Shadown,so that I'd have 1 for each of my kids to use when they get old enough to hunt with me.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Why hunt with small bores

He's the only one that'll hunt with me! roger

Ah, I would guess because you want to you feel comfy with them and they work.

Mark D

quote:

Originally posted by Slingster:
I've shot .308, 7mm-08, .30-06, and 9.3x62 on whitetail, and my standard rifle has been a Rem Model Seven "Junior Scout" in .260 Rem with 125-grain Nosler Partitions at 2700 fps.

This year I may decide to blood my new Merkel K-1 in 7x65R, loaded with 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at 2480 fps.

Hi Slingster! Did not realize you are a .260 convert. I learn something everyday. I have one of thgose little M-7s too, but my M-7 (MS) in .260 is an even better shooter.

LLS

M700: Great photos of you and your young Hunter!
Thanks for them!
Personally I have three friends that continually use their 25/06 Rifles on Bull Elk!
I was spotting through my Nikon spotting scope when one of these friends killed a huge bodied 7x7 Bull Elk two season ago!
One of the other three has killed (I am certain!) in excess of 45 Elk in the last 25 years with his heavy barreled 25/06!
In the last week alone I have seen two Big Game animals killed with a Remington 700 in caliber 223 Remington! The fellow that harvested these animals has taken 7 head of Big Game here in SW Montana so far this fall in our just started season! Careful Hunter/shooter he is!
Why do folks use "moderate" calibers for Big Game Hunting?
One reason I am certain is that it allows (forces?) the Hunter to CAREFULLY place his projectile IN the heart/lung area and to avoid poor shot choices and poor shot placement! Like into the animals shoulders!
If a Hunter has time to aim at a Deer/Elk/Antelope/Caribouss shoulders, then he has time to aim for the proper spot - into the animals heart/lung area! Moderate calibers work wonderfully at this!
I was recently "kicked off" a Hunting chat room after I took to task the board moderater who ENTHUSIASTICALLY endorsed for other Hunters to use the "wonderful" 338/378 Weatherby cartridge to Hunt Mule Deer and to "carefully place their shots into the Mule Deers shoulders"! I have seen several animals that were shot with 338/378 Weatherby's and to say the board moderaters advice was ludicrous, stupid, wasteful, unethical and a bad decision all around - is an understatement!
I publicly pointed this out to this dimwitted moderator and further humiliated him by pointing out that a close friend of mine (a 14 year old girl by the way!) had JUST harvested a trophy Mule Deer Buck (31" spread - I measured this rack personally by the way!) with ONE SHOT from her Remington 700 in 223 Remington! Literally not a couple ounces of wonderful Deer meat was wasted with her careful shot placement!
The horrible and wanton waste of wonderful game meat resulting from the "over-bore" "mash them into the ground" "kill them in their tracks" crowd - I think sets a poor example for our new and young Hunters!
I also questioned that moderator while I was berating him and pointedly asked him just how many pounds of a Mule Deer does he unneccesarily waste EVERY time he shoulder shoots a Mule Deer with his 338/378 "ego maniac" Weatherby Magnum?
That "true" sportsman/moderator would not (was embarrassed to?) answer that question!
You are exactly right when you refer to Hunters being able to "manage" the use of their moderate calibered Rifles on Game!
I notice the young Hunter is smiling with pride there in the photo you posted of him with his "cleanly" harvested game animal. I hope his smile returns when you remind him that he had cleanly (and humanely) harvested that Deer when the flesh of that creature is served up for dinner some evening in the near future.
Many happy returns of the day for you and your son!
Long live accuracy and careful (thoughtful!) shot placement!
Thanks again for the great photos.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Congrats,

Nice Buck regardless of caliber!

VG,

Right on!! If you can hunt you do not need a field piece....my bow proved that to me!!

There may be a connection to the Corvette here....big gun, big engine = little winkie!!

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
I have 3 Winchester 70s in 25 WSSM and the 2 that I have shot are among the most accurate out-of-the-box rifles that I've ever shot... I was able to shoot multiple 3-shot groups that shaded 1" at 100 yards.

This surprises me a bit. While I have owned only around 200 bolt action centerfires, I've had perhaps two dozen of them that would, without any modifications, consistently shoot noticeably better than an 1" (closer to 0.5"), even with factory ammo.

Anyway, I just picked up a "super shadow" 25 WSSM today (they were finally "on sale" for $349). I tried three factory loads: 110 Accubond, 115 BT, and 120 HP. The last turned in a 1.1" group, but the others were 2-3". I also experienced the heavy bolt lift. I can't tell if the factory loads are just a touch hot or if there is some deeper concentricy problem with the chamber and/or bolt face milling. Anyway, I just loaded up some moderate test rounds this evening. I'm certainly not impressed yet, but we'll see how things go tomorrow.

Trigger was not great, though better than I was expected. It seemed to feed and eject properly, though the extractor "claw" seemed to have a bit of difficulty slippy smoothly over te case rim. I just buffed it up now, so we'll see if that smooths things out. Anyway...

Also, quarters bores rock for sub-5000, non-dangerous game. I've taken well over 50 deer (and some black bears) with the 250-3000, and I have no complaints whatsoever about the performance.

Gotta love da quarter bores. Mine is a M700 Classic in 257 Roberts. With a 110 Nosler Accubond it always does wonders - and doesn't blow the bee-gee-zuss out of my shouder roasts.

Seafire,

What?

Because they work!!!

Great post!

When I was about 13 and just learning how to hunt my father had passed away and I didn't have anybody to really show me the ropes. Being the avid reader, I read every thing I could get my hands on, and thanks to a wonderfuly supportive mother, purchased a used 700BDL 30-06 with a hard plastic buttplate. Needless to say that I develolped quite the flinch. A few years down the road an uncle of mine who had done a fair amount of gunsmithing and a lot of reloading, convinced me to purchase a 22-250 remington. This gun happend to be a heavy barreled 700. It didn't take too long for me to get over that flinch and that 22-250 opened up a whole new world of shooting. The first time I hunted with the 22-250 I took two does about 30 min apart, both neck shots. One at 193 paces the other at 157.

My uncle had always been a 6mmRem man and always had a 788 or two laying around to shoot. The gun he was most attached to though was a Rem 40-X with a Hart stainless barrel in 6mmRem. Between those 6's and the things I've done with various 22-250's and 243's there is no doubt in my mind that shot placement is paramount.

We sell alot of guns where I work, but it always bothers me to see young adults start out with 27 caliber and up guns as their first deer rifles.

For deer and 'lopes the Quarterbore's are hard to beat with any other guns. Nice buck by the way. Nate

I like any size bullet that performs well, and doesn't tear up meat.

Because, if you're using enough gun for the game, all other things being equal... they never really are but if they were... less recoil means more accuracy. More accuracy is better.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
I did have a problem with accuracy with one Winchester M70, Five inch groups don't exactly thrill me. When I contacted Winchester, they said very terselt, "Take it to a gunsmith." I did, but then sent them a copy of the bill demanding payment. it's been two years now and they haven't paid up yet. Damned deadbeats.
After the gunsmith worked over the rifle, trigger job, glass bedding, the rifle still didn't shoot worth a damn. On a hunch, I switched scopes and the rifle became a total tackdriver. Everything I run through it is one inch or less. The only bullet it will not shoot good is the Winchester 150 gr. Powerpoint bulk bullets. They are total crap in my rifles, three 7x57s and one .280 Remington.
I guess the point of all this is try changing the scope. My rifle had a brand new Leupold 4X on it, and the scope was bad. I sent it back to Leupold and it was back in a week repaired and good as new. Just something you might give a thought to trying. All my Winchester M70s are quite accurate, so I suspect the problem might be in the scope itself.
Paul B.

If I were you and I found out that I had a defective scope on the rifle I would absorb the gunsmith costs and quit complaining about it.

Regardless rather or not they told you they would pay the gunsmith bill. The honarbly thing to do would be to pay it yourself.

Because obvioulsly your rifle shooting bad wasnt winchester's fault.

Great photographs, thanks for posting them.
I did have a 257 Roberts for a whild but now I use 6.5 and 7mm. For deer there's no need for any thing more powerfull.
But hell, a man might want to use something bigger, if it takes his fancy.

I was brought up to believe the bigger the caliber, the better the chances of recovering an animal. Now I know how simple minded that was. My brother got me hooked on small bores while shooting his 221. No recoil , Less powder to reload , and I can shoot more often.
I also was lead to belive that the smaller calibers were almost impossible to get shoot consistently in the wind. While they may be a little more finicky... not impossible by no means. I love to chase groups and make them as small possible, there are so many conbinations of reloading techniques to try. Unfortunately I have got to shoot anything other than paper with my 22-250, but only because the opportunity hasn't came up yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B
Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Dr B:

My M70 is old, but my hunting partner bought a new one five years ago. It shot 1.5" groups out of the box with factory ammunition, the scope needed adjusted up 2". He was ready to hunt in 20 minutes.

I'd agree with the other posts that say check the scope. The good thing about iron sights is, you can do exactly that. My wife's niece's son bought a Remington pump gun, and it shot 1.75" groups with the iron sights. It was later scoped and still shot 1.75" groups ( kid has very good eyes, eh? ).

I think buying a rifle with no iron sights is just a little inconvenient if there is any doubt later about the scope.

I'd never let someone know I hunt with a small bore rifle......

it is more fun, knowing that they are clueless on what they are missing.... same performance, and less macho recoil.....

they hate it when a small bore will do the same job as their much bigger, more powder, more recoiling rifle will do...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Dr B

Dr B I'll tell you I own a few guns made by a lot of manufactures. I have 4 Winchesters. Two are modern both Heavy Varminters one in 22-250 the other a .220 Swift. The 22-250 has probably over 1600 rounds through it and the accuracy isn't fading or I'm getting to be a better shot. It continues to shoot high .3's and low .4's consistantly. The .220 really has never even had much in the way of load development done and is about .2's behind the 22-250 so far.

Why hunt with small caliber? Why not drive a Formula 1 to work?