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At the range yesterday, I picked up a LARGE number of .223 military brass. I have intended on building up a rifle for my 12 yr old daugther in a 223. Well my question is that I found some 223 necked up to (I'm guessing)the 6mm-223 Rem (6x45). What cartridges do you know of made from 223 brass and how do they stack up to it? And my last questions are what are your favorite bolt action rifles in 223. What about in the classic rifles (modified)? | ||
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.17 Rem (?), .20-Tac, .223 AI, 6x45, 6mm TCU, 7mm TCU - just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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THe 6mm/.223 is commonly called the 6x47 and is simply the .223 case necked to take .243" bullets with no other changes. It is very similar to its counterpart made from the .222 Magnum case, the 6x47. You could neck it to .257 and it would be the big brother the the .25-.222 Copperhead, a favorite for deer of the late writer John Wooters. Wooters lived in the "small deer" country of central Texas, so his Copperhead was plenty of gun most of the time. In practical terms, I suppose you could take the .223 case up to around 7mm and still have a dependable shoulder left to headspace on, however appropriate weight bullets for the small case get pretty scarce when you go above .25. Either the 6x47 or a .25-.223 would make a good deer gun for a youngster (or an oldster for that matter  I'd try a bullet in the 80-85 grain range. You could go to an "improved" case to gain just a tad of case capacity, but it's so little gain that I wouldn't bother.Favorite rifles in .223: The out-of-production Sako L461 has no peer. Unless it would be the out-of-production Kimber of Oregon 84. Or the out-of-production Krico. I suppose the premium-priced current Sako 75 in .223 might make a nice gun, but I don't think it compares to the L461. The former Zastava/Interarms/Charles Daly cum Remington mini-Mauser is a bit crude compared to the Sako, but is about the only action properly scaled to the .223 case available on the market. All of the other actions -- Remington 700, Savage, Ruger, etc. are sized to take cartridges as large as a .358 Winchester. They are both unnecessarily long and unnecessarily heavy for a .223-based cartridge. If I'm using a ".308" action, I want a ".308" in it. | |||
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Thanks for the thoughts, I have also heard that when using military ammo, SAAMI states to use caution when using it in 223 Rem chamberings. Does this simply mean to work up your loads as you should with any reload or is it not a wise practice to use the military brass in the 223 rem chamberings. I am assuming it just means to work up. Has anyone had problems using the actual military surplus ammo in a 223 Rem chambered rifle???? I'm not that familiar with the small calibers, so thanks for the help. Obviously I want the gun/any gun to be as safe as possible. | |||
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A few years ago I built a custom 223 on a CZ 527 action. It has a 1-8 Krieger on it and is likely the most accurate rifle I have. I really like the action. Trigger is nice from the factory, but I replaced the spring and don't use the "set" feature. I haven't done anything with the magazines but some customize them so they don't hang down from the stock for a better appearance. Mine is used mainly in pd work and I need all the rounds I can get in the mag. I wouldn't hesitate to build another again using the same action. Jim Please be an ethical PD hunter, always practice shoot and release!! Praying for all the brave souls standing in harms way. | |||
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With the correct dies and lots of time I suppose you could make the following from 223 Rem brass: 17 Rem, 17 Fireball, 221 Rem, 30-221 (aka 300 Whisper) 222 Rem, 17-222, 24-222, 25-222, 17-223, 6x45 or TCU, 25 TCU, 6.5x45 or TCU, 7mm TCU, 6x35 PDW, 7x33 Sako, and the usual spread of AIs. Of all them the 25-222 Wooters Copperhead has always interested me most. For a bolt gun I like the Sako small action. | |||
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Trez , I shoot a lot of 223, which includes using a lot of surplus military cases.... There is no problem with it in a Rem Chambered bolt 223... The case takes being necked up to 6mm quite easily.. either necked to 6mm or to 25 caliber would be more that fine for our Oregon sized deer.. don't know what part of the state you are in, but either would work on Mule deer found here in my opinion... Some thoughts to consider... There are a lot of good bullets coming out that are useful for deer in the 223, just as it is in 22 caliber and more load data is available for it that the 6mm or 25 caliber wildcats.... A 75 or 80 grain A max are good bullets, but there are no flies on the 52, 53, 55 & 60 grain bullets out there for deer.. they don't have to a Nosler Partition etc to work just fine... You can also down load a 243 to 6 x 45 velocities.. the same with several of the 25 caliber rifles... Load data for the 25/223 is available on the Hodgdon # 26 Manual as the 25 Kimber.... While either is an effective cartridge for deer, I am adding food for thought.. not discouragement.... But when all is said and done, from personal experience.. I find it hard to see where anything else loaded in a 223 case beats the old 70 grain Speer SMP at 2900 fps or so...and that requires no special attention.... I have several fast twist 22 cal centerfires, and haven't done the 6 x 45 strictly because of the 70 grain Speer, and the new faster twist long bullets in 22 cal.. plus I can down load the old 243 if I need to go with an 80, 85 or 90 grain bullet in 6mm..... The 223 is a good case, but more along the lines for a varmint chambering in my book... I wouldn't build one, but if I came by one in 6 x 45.. I would use a 75 grain Hornady HP or a 85 Grain Sierra HP.. and wouldn't see a need for much else.. both of those bullets at the velocities capable from a 223 case can accomplish a lot of good things for the shooter... best of luck with the project.. cheers seafire  | |||
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I'm sure this is a typo error as the 223 necked to .243 is a 6 X 45.....the 222 Mag case necked up is the 6 X 47 I made a 6 X 45 on the cute little mini mauser and it's a sweetie.....Kills whitetails deader than one might expect! Probably the best use of the .223 case is to use it "as-is".....a darn excellent little varminter and it will kill big game as well.....just use the right bullets! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo, you are correct that I "typoed" what should have been "6x45", as you'll note that I correctly labeled the necked-up .222 Magnum as the "6x47". What bullet do you use for deer in your 6x45? I've owned and inexplicable sold two of the Zastava-built "mini-Mausers". I wish I had both back -- one to build a 6x45 or x47 on, and the other for a 7.62x39. | |||
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I've wondered if you can successfully use .223 brass to form 7x33 Sako. The specifications for the Sako round call for a rim/head size of about .393" (from the 9mm Luger, as it is a "stretched" version of this round), while the .223 case has a nominal head size of about .373", or .02 less. The head would be undersized, but the body in front of the web would presumably expand sufficiently without splitting to seal the chamber. Do you know of anyone who regularly uses .223 brass in their 7x33 Sako? The "cheap" answer for 7x33 brass would be to use 9mm Win Magnum brass, but any way you cut it, it's just too short. .351 WSL brass might be adapted with some rim turning, but I'm not sure that it is any more available than the actual Sako brass itself. | |||
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Military ammunition is typically loaded to higher nominal pressure than commercial ammunition; it is also loaded in typically thicker brass. There are no differences in the chambers of the 5.56mm and the .223. There are no precautions in using military spec ammunition in a sporter that is designed for such pressures (which is virtually every sporter). I can assure you, any of the modern turnbolt, frontlug actions on which the .223 is chambered will withstand much more abusive pressures than the most robust of aluminum-receivered AR/M16 type rifles, government contract models included. | |||
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks for all the great thoughts. For now, I'm just wanting to get her to the range with me. Hunting may not happen, don't know yet? I think she would enjoy it but my wife grew up kind of a tree hugger. Go figure?? A gun builder and a tree hugger but we are great together and she doesn't try to change me. I think I am rubbing off on her though, as she has gone to the range with me, the guild show and tries to understand what I do and how I do it. A step in the "right" direction. She knew who I was when we got married and quite frankly I told her that if she was going to have a problem with me hunting and fishing, well we shouldn't get married. We are and have been doing great for 15 years now  Anyway, Hannah (my daughter) will most likely just target shoot for now, maybe some varmint shooting in the future. I'm not sure about anything else for now. I don't want to push it and like to stop while she is still having fun. Seems to give her more of a desire to do it again. Seafire, I'm in Sandy OR about a 45 min. drive east of Portland. Where are you located?? | |||
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[/QUOTE] I can believe it. A friend uses 70 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in his wife's .243, and she's never had anything other than a one-shot kill on whitetails. Another friend likes so much the way 55 grain Ballistic Tips shoot in his .243 Improved that he often hunts both hogs and deer with it -- successfully. It's not what I recommend, but I've known of a lot more deer to be lost when shot with 180 grain '06 factory loads than with the lightweights. | |||
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Trez, I have started all of my younguns off on a 22 Hornet. That is what I would suggest. Cheap to feed, and just about zero recoil in a 6-7lb rifle. Rich DRSS | |||
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I'm finishing up my newest coyote rifle in 17 Predator(a necked down and blown out Lapua 223 case, with a 30 degree shoulder, and slightly more neck length than a standard 17-223). With its Sako AI action and 26" Lilja barrel, I'm expecting around 4100fps with either the Berger 30LTB or Kindler 30 Gold. As for other cartridges off of the 223.....I've made 17MachIV, 17 Javelina, 17-222, 17-223, 20 Duster.....etc. Kevin | |||
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Idaho, Thanks for the toughts. She actually started with a BB gun, then 22---wants her dad to build her a "High Power". Just don't want to overdo it so that her first taste of recoil is more than she will take and still enjoy shooting. | |||
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I can believe it. A friend uses 70 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in his wife's .243, and she's never had anything other than a one-shot kill on whitetails. Another friend likes so much the way 55 grain Ballistic Tips shoot in his .243 Improved that he often hunts both hogs and deer with it -- successfully. It's not what I recommend, but I've known of a lot more deer to be lost when shot with 180 grain '06 factory loads than with the lightweights.[/QUOTE] Same here boys! Actually, test some 55 grain Ballistic tips at 2800 fps MV or less into some wood, say 5 to 8 inches thick and watch how the Nosler will not only penetrate all the way thru, but how much damage it will do exiting.... Same thing with the 70 gr BTip, ..... My favorite ( what use to be a low cost bullet) for 6mm is the 75 grain Hornady HP...... from 2000 fps MV to 3500 fps MV I have watched them drop deer in their tracks! it is the first 6mm bullet I'd reach for when using lower MVs....the 55 grain BIip would be my second choice! | |||
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Trez, I am down south, in Grants Pass... If you ever get down this way let me know, and maybe if I am up in Portland on business sometime I will get an opportunity to give your shop a shout.. and we can have coffee or something together.. would love to see some of your work! cheers seafire | |||
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Add the .357 Max Rimless to the list. .223 necked up to .35 cal and shortened to .357 Max length, headspacing on case mouth. That'll come close to .35 Rem and fit in a CZ 527 or Mini Mauser action. It is a good citizen's duty to love the country and hate the gubmint. | |||
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I;ve been using a 223 Culver for 15 years. It is a 223 with a 35 degree shoulder. Very easy on brass and I get 3450 fps with a 50 gr bullet from a 15" barreled XP-100. The pistol weighs 11.5#. It is my favorite groundhog gun. | |||
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Right you are. I hate it when I type faster than I think, especially since I type so slow. My apologies. | |||
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Gee And I thought that necking a 223 up to 30cal to create the 30apache(?) was necking it a size too far... AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Stevens 200 in a .223. Very accurate, very cheap. If you think you need Hornet velocity, I have seen reduced loads for the .223. The .223 case should outlast the Hornet and if loaded down the cost to reload will be the same. If you get the wilcat bug, unscrew the barrel and take your pick. Not as pretty as a CZ or Howa, but you can buy the gun and put on the scope for the same or less $$ and it will be as accurate if not more accurate than any out of the box gun. The .223 rem is real hard to beat for a range, p-dog gun. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers What cartridges are based on the 223 Rem brass??
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