MY now 9 year old has been with me on many deer hunts this year and he wants to shoot, but he is not big enough to 'get behind' a full stock, shot my 77/22 lots at the range with great percentage-about 85-95% on silhouettes for rimfire at 35-50 yds, with 4x scope on bags, cycling bolt like a semi as he has so much fun.

Question, I am thinking something light, short buttstock, and keeping costs to minimum while he blows through the next 4-5 years of growth spurt. Most use will be deer hunting out of a stand with me and I will limit his shots to 100-150 most likely and preferably as close as possible.

I hear the HR/Rossi etc do pretty good work with accuracy and I am not worried about him getting a second shot off.

I would consider a 243 but he is always asking how hard a gun that I am toting that day kicks, "does that have much PUSH!" so funny. He has shot my 6 and 7 br's but blast, etc. intimidates him.

Thought of a cheap single shot above, in 357, perhaps 243, or if it is made in 260 or 708 and download if the last 2, for blast recoil reasons. The 357 would have least kick and blast not bad due to powder capacity and bore size.

Suggestions? Looked at HR and Rossi recently and the Rossi seemed to have a smoother action when opening/closing, does that indicate better quality? The Rossi had a lighter barrel I believe so would the HR have a heavier profile helping steadiness and recoil?

Thanks for input as I have very little knowledge of these rifles that seem to be growing in use for youths.

Just checked, perhaps the Rossi disc. the 357, not showing with one source, nor any 260/708's for either.

I may be ltd to 223/243/308 and I really think 308 is way too much gun w/o light loads.

There is a HR 22/250 but I want more mass than 22 cal so I believe the 243 is the best option.

SO, which gun H&R or Rossi, and do you think the heavy barrel would allow him to steady better and not be afraid of recoil? I could 'lighten' some loads and use a say 85 BTHP for positive expansion.

Other option, go with TC Encore but money will be more than double for a gun that will be 'outgrown' likely being replaced with a bolt action down the road.

Ok, did find there is an H&R in 7/08 but stock would need cut back, not a big deal, also the 243 comes in youth-sporter barrel, or heavy barrel but stock need shortened.

Could download the 708, or do same with 243 with light bullets for practice, then 'sneak' a better load in chamber on hunt-doubt he'd know but the deer might, and if he has the butt on his shoulder the scope should not touch him, what do you all think?

Leaning to the 243, and thinking heavy barrel to steady his aim.

I know some use the 223 but I am not comfortable doing that on deer...and him on the trigger.

What would you choose? Thanks.

i would buy a stevens 200 in 7mm/08. use a 110gr hornady spitzer loaded down. ask around on this board and find a savage wood take-off and saw it off to fit. in two or three years he'll grow into it. going this route will be economical; he'll have a big-guy's rifle and it will last him as long as he wants to shoot it.

I load Sierra 100 gr in my 7mm08 down to 3000 fps and they shoot real nice and what recoil. As the youth grows it is easy to bump the 708 up to 140s or 160s.

I think that a small bolt action rifle, like the Remington 799 or a used Interarms Mini-Mauser, would be a great choice. I don't like kids to use a firearm with a safety that involves an exposed hammer. Exposed hammer safeties are dangerous enough for adults, since 99% of people with an exposed hammer rifle in their hands are likely to have the bad habit of playing with the hammer, slipping it forward and backward, on and off.

A 223 with the Winchester/Olin 64 grain PowerPoint factory ammo has minimal recoil, is accurate, easy to shoot, and deadly on deer when shot through the lungs. A big plus, at least to my mind, of the 223 is that your son can shoot a lot of good quality factory ammo for a very minimal cost, relative to other CF cartridges, and repetition is a good thing for a young/new shooter.

Jeff

Jeff, good points, he shoots a few hundred 22's per sitting and can work that bolt!!

Have heard the Win 64gr load will kill deer dead, just hate if he did not make a good shot, practice I guess.

As far as hammer's, that gun would sit in the stand and not be touched until I put it up for him to use and cocked it, but I see your point. I used a shotgun with hammer when young, an old single barrel 20 guage and don't think it had a safety, HEAVY spring, had potential for a 'slipped thumb' but never had it happen.

I sold a TC carbine about the time he was born in 6TCU, would have come in handy about now!

I also would go with the Steven's Mod. 200 but in .243 and hand load some good 80gr, bullets to about 2700 fps. Powders like 4198 and 2015 might be perfect. roger

"Starter" rifle. I have an NEF single shot .223 in their youth model. Ideal. If you need a bit more punch, I'd go with the .243. That is what my daughter started with and it worked just fine. Get a Limbsaver pad installed to begin with.

For my part. I've never owned a 243 that kicked.I used it for deer once.Nicked a rib on entry with a 100gr.factory load.HUGE exit wound 8"to10" in diameter.The bullet also deflected up and left nearly removing the front right shoulder. If you do decide on the 243win.I urge reloading for it. Handload some 100gr. or 105gr.bullets to around 2600-2700fps.(If interested)100gr.s.p IMR 4064 33.0gr will give you 2670fps. with a 105gr. IMR4350 37.0gr will give you 2700fps.
I also have a 6mm rem I load for.Same deal factory loads on deer size game,seem to be explosive. Both are good choices for youth cal.
You hit the nail on the head .Shot placement is the key with the smaller bullets.



"If winning isn't important? WHY keep score..."

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I also would go with the Steven's Mod. 200 but in .243 and hand load some good 80gr, bullets to about 2700 fps. Powders like 4198 and 2015 might be perfect. roger

since they are so easy to switch barrels on and ER Shaw can set you up with a threaded and chambered barrel for $150.00 on the door step....

I'd go with a short action Stevens, and get the lad a 22.250 barrel, a 243 or 250 Savage or 260 and a 7/08 barrel... If it was me, I think at least today, my choices would be 22.250, 250 Savage and a 7/08 barrel...maybe a 338 Federal barrel, which they are chambering at Shaw already by the way!

Thanks for all replies, appreciate the input.

Personally I can't see starting kids out on junky guns if you can afford a higher quality bolt gun that they will have for the rest of their lives. I can see getting a spare stock and cutting it down to fit them, but reconsider the low bucks rifle. I've found the cheaper rifles tend to have heavy and poor trigger pulls, and a heavy trigger is an even greater impediment to the child.

A pretty strong case can be made against asking a new shooter to learn to manage a hammer gun and the excitement of hunting and shooting with gloves on all at the same time. How about a Remington Seven CDL (just cause it's handsome) in 260. Remove the factory stock until later and install a youth model job fitted with a good recoil pad finished at your boy's length of pull. You can add a slip on pad as he grows. A 100 grain NPT handloaded to 2700 fps will make venison of any deer that walks. This approach costs more but it solves the problem today and he has a gun he can grow into that will serve a lifetime.

6.5, Not sure what you mean by "keeping costs to minimum while he blows through the next 4-5 years of growth spurt" but you may look at getting a T/C Encore frame for a foundation.
From that there are many many barrel combo's you can go to!
You can have stocks built for them so as he grows you could add a thicker recoil pad and then change out the stock.
The other thing is you can sell the stocks as he grows out of them.
Also you will always have the foundation to work with in either handgun or rifle!!!

Since the last post Paul, I cannot agree more as I have given this more thought, I have decided hey......the reason I built my M7 in 7BR was for my first son, he was 11-12, and later he used a 1885 low wall 243 to down his first 2 deer.

BUT, why not just get a second hand used M7 cheapo stock, hog out the channel for the barrel on it now, and viola, let my son use the barreled action in it, trigger light, gun accurate, plenty power but not bad kick.

Well, now all I am going to do is get a stock for that gun and cut it down for him, and do some inletting work as the one now is a deluxe that is pillar bedded and I am not messing it up......I like to shoot it too!

Funny how the kids end up getting 'our' guns huh?

I will load some 100's or 120's light, and recoil is less than a 243......use 120/130 with good load for hunting........as LONG as the stock is cut to fit, I have a scope with adequate relief and he gets some range time to get accustomed to it over say the 22 he has beeen shooting, then he will do alright. It will be about as good as anything else assuming he places his shots. My then 12 yr old out of the opportunity presented shot his first deer using a mesquite tree as a rest shooting at 300 paces! 1 shot 1kill, 85gr BTHP, bang flop hitting backbone, 2nd deer moments later about 225 in shoulder shooting prone as he could not steady on elbow/knee position, just had to watch for the cactus lying down.

I really don't expect where/how I am hunting my son will shoot at half those distances max and I want to get set up where he can shoot as close as possible to ensure shot placement. I was close to considering a new gun for the 9yr old, but heck, I'll just get a stock and do some work on it, and be in good shape, I'll just have to resort to another rifle. My 6-24x side focus 4200 is on it now just because (I am about to put it either on my 6BR #1, or my 7/08 heavy bbl) and it's about to get a 3-10x 3200 elite or Nikon 4x Prostaff rimfire model that both just arrived, so if the 3-10x, I will try having my son use it on very low power to maximize eye relief (this one has 3.7 unlike the 3.3 of the 3-9x), to simulate the 4x on the 22 he has used, and so he won't get overconfident on his sight picture and pull the shot in the process.

I think this set up will serve him well for awhile and if I decide that he really wants/likes the rifle and would use it as an adult, I have the option to return the bbl/action to Pac-Nor and punch it out to 7/08 if he wants, and use the stock pillar bedded to it now. SO, he can have 1 gun that will allow him to 'grow' into and not 'out of' so thanks to all, for helping me 'get it right the first time'

By chance anyone know where a no frills cheap model 7 wood stock might be? Thanks guys.

By the way, I guess I did not want to have to re-work and bed a stock and go this route, but having thought more about it, it seems the best option.

Even if I have to wait into the off season, I guess I could open the bbl channel enough, then tape the bbl up a few wraps of tape on the bbl for clearance after glass bedding set up, and it would be floated well, and should shoot well enough for him. Right now it is a .5 moa and well under at times gun with it's properly bedded stock. I think I would have to really mess things up for it not to be an MOA at worst shooter, so it will be plenty accurate for deer.

Excellent plan! Check e-bay for stocks, and a short action 700 stock might be able to be fudged to work.

I'd ordered a rem 700 LVSF 221 fireball that I was going to use as a project gun, but then decided to give it to my daughter for Christmas. I'll re-chamber it to 223 ackley. She's fired a downloaded .308 in a short stocked rifle, but says she likes shooting a 22 better. Well, a 22 she will have.

I'm not totally against the single shots, as I picked up a beat NEF 223 for $75, but it really will handicap the kids learning riflery vs a higher quality rig. I figure that gun will live on the boat, and be put into plinking service with milsurp.

My Fireball had a 24", and yours may be 22 not sure, but they will do 3600 plus with 40gr and will do in many varmints, but it sounds like you have 'bigger things' in mind for it!

Weatherby makes a compact version of the Vanguard in 7-08. It comes as a package with 2 stocks, an adult-sized version and a youth-sized version. Kind of like 2 guns in one. My 10 y.o. picked this out of all the guns we tried.

I don´t know if it´s legal or not, but consider the .45 Colt. It´s a pleasure to shot even( or specially!!) in a handgun.

If you´re not considering long ranges, I think its a reasonable choice for hunting. Here Rossi makes them in a 92 action lever gun and in the break open rifle.

Don´t know about the shorter stock, but that´s a unexpensive gun that you can change that.

Congrats with the entusiastic son and good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
My Fireball had a 24", and yours may be 22 not sure, but they will do 3600 plus with 40gr and will do in many varmints, but it sounds like you have 'bigger things' in mind for it!

Yes this one is a 22". I'm torn between waiting until I get a reamer and popping it right out, and getting dies and 100 pieces of brass to tide us over. We likely will hold out and acklify it. The beauty of the 223 is 13 gr of blue dot turns it into a hornet/fireball, and we can also launch the heavier hunting bullets at reasonable speed.

I did pick up a scope off of e-bay that I'll be loaning her until I get a suitable action for my project 223 AI, and I get her a scope for hers.

BTW, the YOUTH double stock model from Weatherby is news to me, thanks, that is not a bad option for someone to have! Good caliber for youth and adults esp. if you load your own.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
Personally I can't see starting kids out on junky guns if you can afford a higher quality bolt gun that they will have for the rest of their lives. I can see getting a spare stock and cutting it down to fit them, but reconsider the low bucks rifle. I've found the cheaper rifles tend to have heavy and poor trigger pulls, and a heavy trigger is an even greater impediment to the child.

Paul, do you consider a Stevens Mod. 200 a juncky gun? In your mind were does juncky stop and acceptable quality begin. This is not a trap or an interlude into a dissagreement. I'm looking for you honest opinion. roger

Oh, heck. Might as well put my two cents worth in. Each of my grandchildren have been started out with a T/C Contender Carbine in .22LR. Next barrel is usually a .223 for prairie dogs. Finally, they get either a 7-30Waters or .30-30Win barrel. Out of five now shooting, including one girl (my sweetheart), each has become a good shot and careful with the hammer and rf/cf switch on it.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

Paul, do you consider a Stevens Mod. 200 a juncky gun? In your mind were does juncky stop and acceptable quality begin. This is not a trap or an interlude into a dissagreement. I'm looking for you honest opinion. roger

I was talking about the handi rifles, I haven't handled or shot a stevens 200, so can't comment on them. I did get my kids a handi rifle, and also a taurus pump action 22, and one of the copies of the old falling block boys rifles in 22. What I've found is with a gun that has a poor trigger and doesn't fit them well,they won't shoot that great.

I think it just comes down to an approach. I feel if you want them to become very proficient and enjoy the process, get them the highest quality gun you can afford, and taylor it to them. If you think well I'll just get them a cheap kids gun, and they get the feeling that it's just a cheap kids gun, they might not be as serious as if you get them whatever you percieve as a quality rig.

I''ve been through this myself. My biggest problem is that I'm a lefty and my son is a righty. I grew up adapting to too long right handed rifles and shotguns til I was old enough to buy my own. I wouldn't damn any child to this hell.

If I was willing to go the route, I would have gone with a mini mauser in .223 for a year or so of practice and then rebarrel to 6mm/223. The base would have been the cheapest mini mauser I could find, with a stock shortened and the comb built up for a small, thin child's face as required and lengthened as he grew with longer pads or slip on pads til a restock was required.

In the end I decided to go the .243 route with 90gr Nosler partitions loaded down to about 2600fps. Haven't received the rifle yet. Hope this route works.

JPK

I'm with the guys who've recommended a bolt gun. You can always hand him one round at a time. You could buy it used if you're worried about the expense. It should last him a lifetime. After my small-framed son had practiced plenty with a .22 I bought him a Rem. Model Seven in .243 when he turned eleven. We had the trigger lightened and the wooden stock cut down to fit him. Using good ear protection and 75 gr. factory loads he had no trouble with the recoil. He practiced at the range until he was proficient and knew his range limitations. We sighted his gun in with 100 gr. factory loads for deer and his first day out he killed a doe and a nice buck. As he grew toward his ultimate 6 feet one I first added a pull over recoil pad, and then restocked the gun with a factory composite stock. I used the gun as a mountain gun myself for years.

I like 257, .260, 6.5x55, or 7mm 08 better than .243 for a young deer hunter, but a .243 won't disappoint him if he shoots well and learns his limits. A stainless gun is less trouble to care for and they are a real bargin used.