I'm looking for a deer/hog solution for my daughters ages 7-11. I've been all over the place in regard to caliber and rifles - stock or custom. Caliber, recoil, versus killing power.

What have you gents put together an used?

I'm considering a .223 shooting tsx's or downloading (I reload) a 7-08.

These gals are petite and dainty, but love to shoot with Daddy.

Would you brake it?

CZ 527 in 7.62x39

I'd pick something like the 6.5X55, but that still leaves you with a full-sized rifle.

I'd probably say no on the muzzle break. I'm convinced that a lot of what new shooters percieve as "kick" is related to the muzzle blast the gun produces.

Ny nephew when he was 10 had no problems shooting deer and pigs with the Remington Reduced Recoil loads in 308.
They make them in several different calibres.

If you reload then a light for calibre Nosler Ballistic Tip at say2200 to 2300fps should work just fine.

Since they grow like weeds at that age stock length is not that much of a problem if they are shooting from some kind of a rest as in a blind.

Scope eye relief is important. A straight tube scope like a 1.5 tp 5 Leupold can usually be set back far enough for proper eye relief, and as they grow it can be moved foward, re zeroing of course.

Try a T/C Contender carbine.. 22 lr, 223 & 7-30 barrels will cover every thing. I'd look for a 1st generation with easy open rather than the new G.

Hey Arthur D

Just went through the same mental debate for my daughter (who is a lefty so it made it that much more difficult).

I decided on a Savage Youth model (one of the few LH) in .223 for a few reasons.

My daughter is of very slight build so I really wanted to limit recoil to prevent development of a flinch.

.223 ammo is so plentiful and inexpensive that I'll just buy loaded ammo for practice and reload TTSX or SAF or Partitions for whitetails.

These are such little fun guns that I bet that I will enjoy it as much as she does.

When she grows and needs something bigger, I'll have an excuse to buy something else and still have the "big brother to the 22LR" to play with or to hand off to the next kid.

ALl of the advice given here is good and you won't go wrong with any of it.

Hell, what's wrong with a couple of Crickets? In .223. They come in different colours so's each could pick a different one.

I do not have a kid at the moment, so take this with a grain of salt. But I would seriously consider a CZ527 in .223. They are light, and shortening the stock would not be an issue. Should you want to upgrade at a later date it is a fairly easy rebarrel.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Hell, what's wrong with a couple of Crickets? In .223. They come in different colours so's each could pick a different one.

I thought the Cricket was only built for rimfire cartridges, i.e. 22lr, 22wmr.

Hmm, you might be right. I don't know, but I thought they could be had in .223??

I just did a google on cricketts and u r right. Pass the crow please.

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
Try a T/C Contender carbine.. 22 lr, 223 & 7-30 barrels will cover every thing. I'd look for a 1st generation with easy open rather than the new G.

+1

Started both my boys with TC Contender Carbines, 22LR, 410, 223, and either a 30/30 or 7/30 barrel will cover most of their needs for many years.

Since you reload I thought I would give my thoughts. My 7 and 9 year olds do well with a T/C Contender carbine in 7TCU. Not much recoil and more knockdown than a 223. I have thought of trying the 6.8spc and 300 blackout in the same configuration for them as you can get factory loads and I want to play with them

Matthew

There are probably more hogs taken with .223's than with any other caliber. No, it's not the perfect caliber for a 250-lb boar, but for the vast majority of piggies that present themselves for shots it will do just fine.

I built a very light, short-barreled .223 on an L461 Sako for my grandson (with which he has killed three bucks and a tub full of prairie dogs). The Sako makes for a pricey basis for a kid gun, but then he is MY grandson, so nothing is too good for him. A Mini Mark X would also be a good basis for a kid gun.

Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent CZ 527 has two fatal flaws and should NEVER be used as a kid gun: Most importantly, the safety works backwards and is unsafe even in adult hands. Secondly, the unnecessarily thick bolt root forces very high scope mounting, and since kid's faces are small/thin to begin with this high scope position doesn't allow any cheek contact on the stock.

Most break-open actions have pretty low stock combs, otherwise they would make acceptable kid guns. Getting a stock that fits as kid, especially at the comb, is a big part of allowing them how to shoot properly.

I would pick up a Howa Youth. Comes with short and long stocks. Either 243 or load down a 7-08. This would cover them for a number of years.

I started my niece out when she was 6 with a G2 Carbine in 7-30Water with a 16 1/4 barrel with a muzzletamer. She has killed 11 deer by her 10th birthday with it and she is a left handed, petite little thing. I have load with 120 gr Sierra ProHunters and H322 powder that is AWESOME on deer...she has made 5 one shot kills and they have either dropped in their tracks or ran with a bloodtrail that a blind man could follow. We had a few runners with 140 gr bullets (found them tho..but not very good blood trails) I would shy away from a 223 if at all possible,,,I load a lot of rounds 55gr GameKing HP's and 60 Gr Nosler Partitions for friends daughters who shoot 223s... and they get mixed results...one was telling me Sat that his daughter shot a doe with the 55gr GK's and it bled great ...then another buddy told me that his daughter shot a doe with em and it didnt bleed at all. The muzzlebrake on my neices rifle doesnt bother her at all...kinda rough if you are in the blind with her...but the lack of recoil gives her the confidence to make great shots. I agree with what one poster said about using a smaller scope on it...I had put a Mueller 4-14AO on it in the beginning (all I had at the time) and it seemed to take a long time for her to get on target...I changed it out for a compact 3x9 Burris Timberline and it has increased her target aquisition time greatly.

I started my daughter at that age with a push feed Model 70 with the stock shortened in .257 Roberts, using minimum listed loads for the 100-grain Nosler partition and it worked very well. If a single shot is ok the TC contender route sounds like a good way to go with barrels in .22 LR and whatever. I personally would go with the centerfire barrel in 7-30 Waters as already suggeted, handloaded with 120-grain bullets.

A reduced recoil 7-08 is a great choice. If you already own it you're way ahead and later on full house loads will perform well even up to elk.

If you are conseidering buying I'd look for a .250 Savage or .257 Roberts. Nate

ArthurD--You don't tell us which state. If .22 center fire legal, the .223 would be my choice. I have seen it used plenty on deer with 100% success. Stock fit is as important to a youth as it is to adult and the fact it might fit in a few years is not a good answer. I like keeping original stock full length and getting a second stock to cut. I agree the CZ has the backwards safety issue, but would still recommend it.

When my son was 8 years old, I bought him a Savage youth model in 7mm-08. It worked out brilliantly. The rifle came with a brake, and I started him out shooting Remington's reduced recoil loads. Between the brake and the reduced loads, the recoil was very, very mild.

He shot several deer and pigs with the reduced recoil loads. It wasn't very long before he was shooting Federal Premium (Barnes TSX) full power loads.

Now he is 12 years old, and he still loves the rifle. He has taken 12 animals in Africa, mostly bigger antelope like Blue Wildebeest, Black Wildebeest and Oryx.

He has a lot of confidence in the rifle, and just loves shooting it.

That little Ruger Compact with the short stock and 16.5 inch barrel is chambered in 7.62 x 39, along with the 223, 243 and 7/08..

I think any one of those would be a good place to start...

when the youth gets bigger, then upgrade it or change the barrel or stock or both...

I think they are a pretty cool little package... sort of like a Centerfire Cricket...

The Managed Recoil ammo available from Remington in 260,7-08,270,7mmMag,308 and 30-06 is GREAT AMMO for those of slight build and recoil sensitive! One of the youth Howas, Model 7 Remingtons, Ruger Compacts ought to fit the bill in terms of short, easy to handle and with the ammo, easy to shoot. GHD

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:
CZ 527 in 7.62x39

Or even one of the older Mini Mark X's in that caliber so you won't mind cutting the stock.

Brought my 10 yo son a 7-08 and load it with 120g Nosler and 42g of Varget.

It's a very accurate load and my son can shoot it very well

Reg S&F

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
Brought my 10 yo son a 7-08 and load it with 120g Nosler and 42g of Varget.

It's a very accurate load and my son can shoot it very well

Reg S&F

That and the .260 in a rifle of appropriate size and weight for the shooter are hard to beat!

I recommed Sako A1 rifle in PPC caliber or rebarreled it to grendel if need bigger bullets. I think one really important thing for young/small shooter is that gun fysical size is enough small to handle of gun. Short arms and long action and long barrel is really difficult use. Its same like we "normal size" shooter use BMG size action with +37" barrel. Its possible by rest but not fun by free hand.

Some follow up for you gents since so many have been so helpful. I appreciate it fellas. Whitetails and hogs are on the menu.

I've handled a lot of youth rifles lately. Dads are lucky to have so many choices on the market. Originally my idea was to find a package nimble enough that the kid could actually hold it and shoulder mount the rifle. My goal is minimal muzzle blast and minimal recoil. That led me to the 7-08 running 120 noslers or sierras at 1600 fps.

For an affordable gun, I like the HOWA action the best and they have a scoped rifle package. The stock is cut simply short, too thick and clumpy - the girls didn't like it. The Savage youth in 7-08 has a trimmed up stock - these people actually made the stock to fit a little persons hand. The forend is trim also - the girls like the savage best. I've examined several custom options, but it's hard to dismiss the little savage scoped and ready for 350$. The savage would need a trigger job.

For custom shops - serious consideration has gone to two firms. HCR makes a sweet remington harvester in a mcm mountian stock with this 7-08 low recoil option in mind. The rifle feels great. Second option- Bansners alpine hunter howa action in a 243 or 308 running reduced loads and rifle braked. Both shops will lengthen the stock as the child grows - big points there.

One last option that temps me is a kimber montana cut to 12.5" LOP. Another stock can be had for $300ish - a bargain compared to the custom shops. I'm just not sure what the recoil outcome would be even with severely reduced rounds in the montana.

For a little older kid you may want to consider a BAR in 308... mine shot his 1st elk with one, no problem (stock cut) and NO muzzle break, using off the shelf 150gr ammo. He was/is 4'10 and 130# and somewhat physically handicapped (muscles.)

VR
Earl

Purchased my daughter a Rem model seven in .243 Win and never looked back. We have introduced numerous kids between the ages of 10 & 12 to the sport of hunting by letting their parents borrow this same rifle. Never had a complaint about rifle or caliber. Great little rifle. We also shoot the 22-250 and prefer it over the .223 on Texas whitetail.

Just picked up a Ruger compact stainless in 260. Will be a few years before the kids start shooting, but I'll try it out till then.

Not sure why Ruger dropped the 260. They had to be selling good.

For girls aged 7-11 I'd choose a 223, a Mini Mauser or Sako L-461.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
I do not have a kid at the moment, so take this with a grain of salt. But I would seriously consider a CZ527 in .223. They are light, and shortening the stock would not be an issue. Should you want to upgrade at a later date it is a fairly easy rebarrel.

From your signature it looks like you're pretty familiar with firearms and know about which you speak.

Question:

You made an interesting comment about the CZ527 re-barreling operation as to it being fairly easy and I wondered if that boils down to a do it yourself deal like the Savages or just easy for someone with your experience?

I was not familiar with the CZ rifles and starting thinking some bad thoughts about how many barrels I could get to work on a short action CZ?

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

From your signature it looks like you're pretty familiar with firearms and know about which you speak.

Question:

You made an interesting comment about the CZ527 re-barreling operation as to it being fairly easy and I wondered if that boils down to a do it yourself deal like the Savages or just easy for someone with your experience?
I was not familiar with the CZ rifles and starting thinking some bad thoughts about how many barrels I could get to work on a short action CZ?

I should preface that it is a fairly easy re-barrel in terms that it is like a mauser. You would have to have the barrel threaded and chambered. Unfortunately it is not like the Savage unless you have a switch barrel set-up.

I sold my last CZ with much regret and am waiting for another to come along. I am planning a switch barrel setup in .223, .300W, and probably one of the 6.5 selections. Keep in mind it is a mini action, so you are mostly limited to .223 sized applications.

I'm rapidly approaching this situation with my own daughter, and I am thinking along the same lines that Tom in Ga. is thinking that I am leaning towards a T/C. I am looking at this as a transition gun, and not the final one which will hopefully have a bit more oomph but is still a few years down the road. Also it will be easy to change the stock as they grow, and you can move up in barrel size depending on what is needed.

Also, and a big thing IMHO is when she is used to shooting "her" rifle in 22 LR and moves up, if a caliber is too much she'll associate it to the barrel and not to the gun.

Scratch the Kimber Montana idea. Their replacement stock is 650$ not $300.

sorta takes the fun out of it ...

quote:

I sold my last CZ with much regret and am waiting for another to come along. I am planning a switch barrel setup in .223, .300W, and probably one of the 6.5 selections. Keep in mind it is a mini action, so you are mostly limited to .223 sized applications.

I have researched this option myself as it seems like a great idea, especially in the 6.5

But, I can't seem to make it work out - problems at every turn.

Arthur D,

I started a similar exercise two years ago when my son started hunting deer at age 8, and am now going through it again for my daughter, who is 8 now. Just for reference, my son, was and still is very large and strong for his age, while my daughter is very small and slightly built for her age. I've learned a few things along the way, and maybe some of it will be useful to you.

If at all possible, have your girls handle the guns you are considering to make sure the stock fits them. Just buying a youth model stock or gun doesn't necessarily mean that it will fit them, especially if they are small. Case in point: my son's rifle has an aftermarket fiberglass "youth" stock that is very slim and trim with a short length of pull (12.5" IIRC). While this stock fit my son well when he was 8, it is still too large for my daughter at the same age. I would never have guessed this until I watched her struggle with it at the range.

You might want to consider a rifle with a highly-adjustable stock, such as the six-position stocks found on the M4/AR-15 style rifles. An M4 can be adjusted to fit just about anyone, including my daughter, and she shoots one just fine. The 16" barrel on the M4 is more proportionate to her and the rifle. A lot of people object to this type of rifle for hunting, but they are compact, highly adjustable, and available in at least 3 calibers for whitetails and hogs (.223 with fast twist for heavy bullets, 6.8 mm SPC, and .300 AAC Blackout).

As others have mentioned, I found low scope mounts to be important.

Like others mentioned, I considered the T/C Contender. I have had one for years, but ultimately decided against it. What made me decide against it was the Drury Outdoors "Dream Season" videos. Over the years, the daughter (Taylor Drury) and others in the video series have used a .223 T/C to shoot several deer. Some of the deer have been missed or not hit perfectly, and the backup shots were very slow as they fumbled for more rounds. Don't misunderstand: I think the Drury videos are highly informative and well done. However, these people make their living hunting deer, and if they have problems with a weapon system, it's likely average deer hunters will to. For me, hunting time with my children is too limited, and I didn't want to risk a negative experience that might turn them off, so I passed on the T/C.

Regarding barrel length and muzzle blast, my son's .243 has a 22" barrel and a short youth stock, which I think makes the gun off-balance (front heavy) and makes it appear to weigh more than it actually does. He gets tired of carrying it, so I end up carrying it about half the time. If you're going to carry your daughter's rifle, I think that makes a short barrel even more appealing. I think a 16" to 18" barrel is better balanced for a small youth rifle, while up to 20" probably works for a larger youth rifle. As for muzzle blast, my children always wear ear protection at the range, and believe it or not, before they shoot at deer. At the age they are now, my children hunt "setups" consisting of double ladder stands, tower stands, or ground blinds overlooking small food plots in thick cover. That way the shots are close (30-100 yards) and in the open. You can wait for the perfect angle and most shots are broadside. My son has always had time to pull his ear muffs down before shooting.

Caliber? That's a tough choice for daughters because you don't want them to develop a flinch from too much recoil. However, after watching my son and his friend shoot four deer this year, I've decided that I want an entrance hole of at least .270 caliber and preferably .30 caliber, which really limits the choices. I've also decided that I want quick opening bullets for maximum lung/heart damage on broadside shots and a big exit hole. I love controlled expansion bullets for trophy hunting and odd angle shots, but in small calibers the entrance and exit holes are too small for easy tracking with a son or daughter in tow. (My son shot 3 deer with his .243 this year using Federal's Fusion controlled expansion ammunition. It did just was it was supposed to do. On one spine shot, the deer was DRT, but on two perfectly-placed broadside lung shots, the entrance hole was tiny and the exit about the size of a nickel. The latter two deer ran 100-125 yards into dense cover with relatively poor blood trails. We found both after some hard tracking. My son's friend used my .223 with a cheap silver bear 62-grain soft point to flatten a doe. She was DRT from a broadside, low chest hit through the heart. There was absolutely no blood or visible entrance hole (we had to skin her to find it), but there was a 2.5" exit hole. The .223 with the 62 gr SP worked great, even better than the .243 with its controlled expansion bullets, but if a deer runs, I want two holes big enough to leave a blood trail on both sides of the body).

For what it's worth, I have not completely decided on what my daughter will be hunting with this year. Right now, she's doing fine with the M4 in .223, and I may just buy a .300 Blackout upper for the 115-125 grain loads. However, I like bolt guns for hunting, so more likely I'll get her a Ruger 77 Compact with 16" barrel in 6.8 mm SPC or 7,62x39 this Spring for her to start practicing. Also, I've ordered my son a left-handed mini-mauser from Zastava in 7.62x39 with a 20" barrel.

Good luck with your choice!

I agree that single shot rifles are not the correct choice, although appealing. I would also avoid a 223. After a lot of thought about it, I now consider either a single shot or a 223 a choice for experienced hunters. They are too cumbersome or too inefficient for inexperienced hunters, IMO.

I can not understand the appeal of the 30 cal blackout. It's way underpowered for deer, and it's so obvious that I can not understand why anyone would use it for the purpose, as an adult with experience, much less as a child's deer hunting tool.

I consider the 7.62x39 a minimum for deer or hogs, and then only with careful shot placment and limited range, like 100 yds or less, and I like handloads using 150gr bullets. The 123 gr TSX bullets are appealing too for the 7.62x39.

I used the 6.5 Grendel last season for deer and it was fun and effective. To me, it's the perfect minimum cartridge, effective yet mild.

KB

It's no small bore, but it makes for a damn fine kids rifle. I suggest a Marlin GG in 45-70. I currently load rounds for jr. shooters from age 5 up through 12yo. With Hodgdon's Trail Boss, you can send 300gr HP's at 1100+fps, and the recoil is almost non existent. It's very accurate in my rifle and more than enough to put a deer or a hog on the ground.