It doesn't matter how accurate my little 222 is in the calm at 100, by the time it's crossed a 250yd field it's a long way off the crow target due to the wind. Seems it never stops on these big rolling fields and valleys and with a 3mph difference being a clean miss my mind is turning to some VLD variations.

I am a bit concerned about the recoil and richochet potential of a 223/70gr VLD rig, so I wondered about a 37gr 17cal VLD rig which should cut the wind drift approx in half from my 222 if I can launch it at 3,500fps.

The questions I have are:-

For throating purposes, does one seat so that the heel of the bullet is to the base of the neck or where the boat tail finishes?

What is the length of the bullet and the length of the boat tail?

What case is going to achieve 3,500fps best 17 rem or MK IV? (the Javelina is too much of a pain to form for me I think)

This is for say up to 10 shots in a 3 hour session, what is accurate barrel life likely to be?

I gather that Pence barrels is not taking any more orders - where else can one obtain 6 twist barrels?

Or maybe I should just wait for some still days!

Not Todd Kindler but maybe I can help. Have quite a bit experience with 37vld in ppc case. Will have to use 17 Rem. case to get close to 3500 fps. Would advise against 6 twist no matter what anyone else tells you. Seems like bullet rpm gets to be a problem when it exceeds what you will achieve with 7 twist at 3650 fps max.[approx.365,000]. Have shot these bullets in my ppc down to 3000fps,no problems with stability. Don't think barrel wear would be a problem the way you are thinking of using it. My 17PPC has about 650 rounds through it,and will still shoot some impressive groups. Just shot some goups the other day in preparartion for pd shoot, does extremely well at 400-700 yd. range.Don't know who all makes 17 barrels in this twist,mine is a pacnor and has shot extremely well from the gitgo. Hope this has been helpful, if I can be of further assisstance just let me know.

-For throating purposes, as long as you get at least one caliber of seating depth you will be fine.

-Why don;t you look at the BR case for the VLD 17 bullets. Read an article about the 17 BR with the 37gr VLD and was pretty impressed with the results out past 500 yards.

-At that rate of fire, your barrel will last a long time if cleaned every 30 rounds or so, any 17 should be cleaned often.

-I agree that the 6 twist barrel is a bit fast. Remember that there aren't to many VLD 17 caliber bullets, if your barrel doesn't like the 37 gr pill, any lighter bullet may let loose at the muzzle from the strain. I believe Lilja has a selection of 17 caliber barrels with different twists.

www.riflebarrels.com

-I have shot Berger bullets in some of my larger wildcats designed for VLD bullets and all have lost accuracy much above 3300-3350 fps because of the very thin jacket design. Just something to think about.

Good Shooting!!!

50

Run the numbers. You cannot get a 37 grain VLD moving fast enough to make it competitive (at least in terms of trajectory and wind resistance) with a Kindler 27 or 29 grain boat-tail. I tried the 37 grain VLD route and it was a complete waste of money. I worked my ass off and could not consistently achieve more than 3200 fps without blowing up bullets 20' away from the muzzle. At that anemic velocity just about any .17 cal bullet blows it away.

If I recall correctly, the 37 VLD only outperforms the Kindler 27 and 29 grain bullets (about the most streamlined 17 bullet out there that actuallyh works) if you can motivate the 37 grainers to about 3600-3700 fps. The problem is the jackets are too thin to withstand the rotational forces and for most people who have tried, the VLD the bullets just fly apart much past 3400. As stated above, I could not get a bullet to hold together past 3200 fps.

Until we get a bullet with a tougher or thicker jacket, the 37 grain VLD is a waste of effort IMHO. If you want to maximize trajectory the most streamlined 17 bullet is Kindler's 27 (.234 B.C.?) or 29 grain and jack the velocity as high as you can go. The 37 VLD cannot touch a 27 grain boat-tail moving 4000 fps.

My .02 worth.

Jordan

Run the numbers. You cannot get a 37 grain VLD moving fast enough to make it competitive (at least in terms of trajectory and wind resistance) with a Kindler 27 or 29 grain boat-tail. I tried the 37 grain VLD route and it was a complete waste of money. I worked my ass off and could not consistently achieve more than 3200 fps without blowing up bullets 20' away from the muzzle. At that anemic velocity just about any .17 cal bullet blew the 37 VLD away.

If I recall correctly, the 37 VLD only outperforms the Kindler 27 and 29 grain bullets at 4000 fps (the most streamlined 17 bullet available which actually works) if the 37 is motivated to about 3700 fps. The problem is the jackets are too thin to withstand the rotational forces and for most people who have tried it, the VLD bullets just fly apart much past 3400. As stated above, I could not get a bullet to hold together past 3200 fps.

Until we get a bullet with a tougher or thicker jacket, the 37 grain VLD is a waste of effort IMHO. If you want to maximize trajectory the most streamlined 17 bullet is Kindler's 27 (.234 B.C.?) or 29 grain and jack the velocity as high as you can go. The 37 VLD cannot touch a 27 grain boat-tail moving 4000 fps.

My .02 worth.

Jordan

Run the numbers. You cannot get a 37 grain VLD moving fast enough to make it competitive (at least in terms of trajectory and wind resistance) with a Kindler 27 or 29 grain boat-tail. I tried the 37 grain VLD route and it was a complete waste of money. I worked my ass off and could not consistently achieve more than 3200 fps without blowing up bullets 20' away from the muzzle. At that anemic velocity just about any .17 cal bullet blew the 37 VLD away.

If I recall correctly, the 37 VLD only outperforms the Kindler 27 and 29 grain bullets at 4000 fps (the most streamlined 17 bullet available which actually works) if the 37 is motivated to about 3700 fps. The problem is the jackets are too thin to withstand the rotational forces and for most people who have tried it, the VLD bullets just fly apart much past 3400. As stated above, I could not get a bullet to hold together past 3200 fps.

Until we get a bullet with a tougher or thicker jacket, the 37 grain VLD is a waste of effort IMHO. If you want to maximize trajectory the most streamlined 17 bullet is Kindler's 27 (.234 B.C.?) or 29 grain and jack the velocity as high as you can go. The 37 VLD cannot touch a 27 grain boat-tail moving 4000 fps.

My .02 worth.

Jordan

Whoops!!! Forgot about the .17 "30 Gold"---think it has a BC of .280, which would be the most streamlined bullet out there which actually works.

Thanks for the practical warnings! Can't get Todds bullets in the UK without mega hassle at present. I will wait for the wind to drop or think about a 70gr VLD for the 223

As an aside did you know that by only 250yards a 223 poking out a 70gr VLD at 3,100fps is going faster than a 22-250 screaming out a 50gr at 3,600fps! Wonder what a quick twist 22-250 with 70s is like!?

Unfortunately too loud for me.

Just to give you an idea what these heavy VLD bullet will do for a long range shooter. I had a 1000 yard chuck rifle built on a Win M70 HV rifle rebarreled with a 30" fluted stainless barrel from Lilja with a .243" bore and a 1-8 twist and cut with a 6mm-284 reamer.

I can drive a 105 gr A-Max to 3450 fps and a 107 gr Matchking to 3600 fps with top accurate loads.

These two bullets have B.C. numbers equal to or greater then the .308" caliber 180gr Ballistic Tip which means they will fly as flat and loose velocity at the same rate as the much larger .308" bullet.

What size case do you think it would take to drive that 180 gr bullet as fast as I can the 105-107 gr VLD bullets. At least a 7.82 Warbird or 30-378.

Now I get as good or better ballistic properties with half the powder burned and about 1/5th the recoil.

Of course down range energy is more for the 30 caliber round but for 1000 yard chuck hunting the 6mm-284 has much more then needed. Kills at that range are almost instant with the A-Max bullet.

Just goes to show you that its easier on the shoulder to use technology then to try to force the issue with more power.

Just my experience!!!

50

berger has been bought out. and will no longer be making 17 bullets, none the less any bullets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they are gone, history!!!!!

Mainer1234

Where did you get this information ?

muck

A big corporation named Spiveco bought out first J-4 Jackets, then forced the sale of Berger Bullets. They closed out J-4 in February, and look like they are getting ready to do the same to Berger. The production of 17 cal bullets stopped at Berger some time in 2000, before the company was moved (without it's personnel) to Fullerton California.

there is your info!!!!!!!