I was looking for a rifle in 6mm PPC. Who makes these? I know Sako makes one and I *thought* Kimber used to. The Kimber was high though - $1200 if I remember right. Or is this something that coulde be built up on a Rem 700 action?

I'd take a look at the Sako, but honestly I like American made guns the best. Just my preference.

Any help is appreicated.

Halvey: I am with you, in that, I "prefer" to buy American when ever possible.
Having said that I recently came across a Sako bolt action single shot Varmint style Rifle in caliber 6mm PPC. This Rifle was new unfired and came from an estate situation. It had been purchased by the owner and he had a Leupold 24X scope mounted on it in the integral Sako rings. It came with 100 unfired pieces of Sako brass and two complete sets of new un-adjusted loading dies.
Anyway I was hesitant (as always) when buying a used Varmint/accuracy type Rifle but I was convinced this Rifle was unfired and in perfect shape!
I took the nifty little Sako (it weighs 10 pounds 14 ounces with the Leupold scope) home and made some ammunition for it.
My FIRST trip to the range with it (after a short barrel breakin regimen) yielded two five shot groups at 100 yards that measured .443" and .389" respectively. According to my loading log the range conditions that day I listed as "poor" due to 6+ MPH winds and grey light. I was happy with this and now had some fireformed brass to test with! My next trip to the range produced two sensational groups made in conditions I listed as great!
The two five shot groups I fired that day at 100 yards, measured .212" and .226"!
Now remember this is not a bench rest Rifle (or maybe it is?), it is supposed to be, a Varmint Model!
The .212" group was made with plain old Nosler Varmint bullets (Nosler 70 gr. Ballistic Tips) and the .226" group was made with Euber 68 gr. custom bullets!
I have spoke with a couple other Sako single shot 6mm PPC owners over the years and they also rave about the accuracy they get with their "Varminters". If you come across a Sako in 6mm PPC I would lend you some of my enthusiasm to get over your hesitancy with the foreign origin of it.
For your information one thing I had to get "used to" with this Sako is the two stage military style take-up of the trigger. It in no ways hampers the shooting from the bench but may be a source of consteration if you want to use it for running Varmints or if you use it in rotation with "normal" triggers.
I really was impressed with the fit, finish and performance of this light weight Varminter.
Good luck in your search for a 6mm PPC.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

It's not that I'm totally against the idea of a Sako, it's I'd rather get an American made gun if possible. That's something to think about. I saw someone on GA had a Kimber in 6mm PPC for $1200 or something like that. And a Cooper for $1500. Spendy, but for groups like that

The Sakos - in particular the older single shots - are amazingly accurate in 6mm PPC. But if you don't want one of those (period), a Cooper can be had for about $900 retail. Check out Guns America, there are usually one or two in 6mm PPC for sale there. The cheapest model is the "Varminter" - should go for between 900 and 1000 NIB.

Alternatively, check out Shooter's Corner for a used 6mm PPC. There are so many in there you'll be surprised.
- mike

You can go over to Bob White page Shooterscorner.com he handles alot of 6ppc and may have what you are looking for both new and used. I agree with VarmitGuy I have a 22ppc and 6ppc Sako single shot got them new when those singles shots came out and they shoot little bug holes. Be careful of those Kimbers if it's from the old company they put out some bad rifles before they when broke. Guy at our club has one of the new Sako but don't think it's as good as those old single shots. I would think those Cooper would be pretty good also haven't seen one. It's nice to buy "American" and I try and support it but the ppc is different I use Laupa,Sako and Norma brass for the 6ppc. Well good luck

Didn't Ruger chamber the PPC cartridges as well? - Dan

The Sako 6PPC has an excellent reputation. The only U.S. manufacturer I know of who makes them is Cooper. That's going to set you back a few coins, but they also are excellent rifles, every bit as accurate as Sako, maybe more so. Your best bet may well be Shooters Corner at www.benchrest.com/shooterscorner/ The owner, Bob White is a past president of the International Benchrest Shooters and deals mostly in benchrest equipment, and of course the 6PPC is king of that discipline. Most of his rifles, and the list is long indeed, are 6PPCs. Check it out. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Dan belisle: Yes Ruger did for a short time chamber both the Ruger #1-V and the Ruger 77-V in both 6mm PPC and 22 PPC! The reason they were made for only a short time was because Mr. "P" (of PPC fame) filed a civil lawsuit against the Ruger folks for not paying him to use his cartridge design in a "commercial" venture.
So those Rugers in PPC calibers that did hit the market (and there aren't very many of them) do carry with them a premium price when offered for sale.
My friend Armand has a couple of these PPC Rugers and has told me they are VERY accurate also! I only see them for sale very rarely though and have not seen one up for sale in at least two years now.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why not get a used Remington and have a discarded benchrest barrel installed. BR shooters change barrels often, some with less than 1000 rounds thru it. It will still shoot great. Sometimes there are problems with extracting a PPC in a .473 Rem bolt. A Sako extractor will resolve that. The Remington can be trued up, bedded, and will then most likely out shoot any factory Sako. And I think you can get it done for under the price of the Sako's, Kimber, Cooper, etc.

Good point. I thought about just getting in built on a Remington 700 action, but figured I'd try the "factory" route first. Cooper looks like it may do it.

My friend Armand has a couple of these PPC Rugers and has told me they are VERY accurate also! I only see them for sale very rarely though and have not seen one up for sale in at least two years now.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy[/QUOTE]
I got a 6ppc in a #1 and it now has a Hart barrel and I get groups in the .3's and .4's. That orginal barrel was so long throated just got tired of it. And I seen that problem in another Ruger also but was in a 22ppc.

Tom Holland: Would you care to relate how the original Ruger barrel shot? I also have been aware of MANY Rugers that were long throated! The worst one I ever had anything to do with was a Ruger #1 in 257 Roberts!
Having said that I have also seen many "long throated" Rifles that shot well! I guess what I am saying is just because a Rifle has a long throat does not automatically mean it will be inaccurate!
I just love the looks, feel and styling of the Ruger #1's especially the #1-B models! I have a bunch of them!
Thankfully your Ruger is shooting real well now!
Good for you.

Now for those folks that would advise buying a used/take off bench rest barrel! I tend to advise against this!
A person would need to have it re-threaded and rechambered. This will necessitate making an already short barrel even SHORTER! The 6mm PPC would benefit velocity wise (if one is a Hunter) from a longer barrel.
And remember some one is selling that barrel for a reason! Its either not accurate enough or its losing its accuracy or its shot out!
Good luck Halvey which ever way you go!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Tom Holland: Would you care to relate how the original Ruger barrel shot? I also have been aware of MANY Rugers that were long throated! The worst one I ever had anything to do with was a Ruger #1 in 257 Roberts!
Having said that I have also seen many "long throated" Rifles that shot well! I guess what I am saying is just because a Rifle has a long throat does not automatically mean it will be inaccurate!
VarmitGuy, Maybe in a hunting rifle a long throat is OK but not in a 6ppc they just don't work well with alot of bullet jump. You have alittle better luck running them alittle on the hot side. I just had a 6ppc done up with a 1/15 twist for those lighter shorter bullets. Bruno made some longer ogive 6mm bullets that work pretty good in some of the longer throated rifles.
Now as to buying a used BR barrel depend if its a light or heavy rifle barrel lenght is about 20" plus and you will find very few shot out. Most of the top shooter will have a waiting list for those barrel. You have to remember these guys shoot groups .0's,.1's and 2's so if I had a barrel that was doing in the .1's and it dropped to .2's I'd get me a new barrel. That's how that game is played. If you had say a Kelby action you could call them and they would send you a barrel already to go and all you have to do is screw it on it's not like you have to worry about headspace. I have 4 barrel for my hunter BR rifle and change out the barrels myself they are not set up like a regular rifle.
I have a certain level I expect as to groups out of a varmit rifle and the #1 6ppc is now at that level it doesn't get as much use as my bolt 6ppc they are alittle better as to groups.

VarmintGuy, What you say is SOMETIMES the case, but the norm is not. Some BR barrels are short, but most that are for sale is perfectly usable. The reason to buy a used BR barrel? It will most likely shoot rings around a factory barrel. And, it can be bought for less than $100 bucks usually. And as the other poster said, if you have a Panda, you're good to go. Many BR shooters shoot Farley actions. Thay are threaded the same as a Remington. Setting up one of these to a Rem action and rechambering is no big deal to a decent smith. If somebody want s a good 6mm barrel, the used BR market is the most cost effective. And sometimes a 22 comes up.

Guys: Let me relay just one "incident" I have seen develop firsthand with a "USED" BR barrel.
I was at a Gunshow in the NW - U.S.A. some years ago and a well known BR shooter was walking around trying to peddle a stainless, straight taper BR barrel chambered in 6mm PPC. This barrel ("it was purported") was made by a leading maker of BR barrels. His "story" was that the barrel shot consistently in the 1's and 2's (he-he!) And that the barrel "only" had 500 - 600 rounds through it! Now, no one that knows anything about BR would believe that a shooter would remove a barrel this new that shot that well and then SELL it! I asked to inspect the barrel and once in my hands I took out my Siebert bore inspection optical tool and gave it a thorough going over. Then I literally laughed in the sellers face! That barrel was shot out in the throat and the rifling was rounded and thin for several inches up from its rough, dark throat. On the outside that barrel looked new and to the naked eye it looked passable!
Anyway unfortunately another Gunshow club member did buy that short barrel and set about on his project. Many months later that member was selling the whole Rifle (a short action Remington 700) which had, by then, been chambered up in 6mm BR! His story of woe was predictable - the Rifle would not shoot consistently (plagued with fliers!) and the barrel was now so short that velocity was blah!
Now again I will repeat my advice and warning for anyone considering those already short used BR barrels! Someone is selling that barrel for a good reason!
And those sellers are not usually able (if ever!) to sell them to other BR types! The other BR types know that for another "comparatively" few dollars they can get a brand new barrel, have it chambered and set up to their needs, break it in correctly and get off to a fresh start - so to speak!
Now, also it certainly does not sound like Halvey is looking for a full blown bench rest Rifle - it sounds more like he is looking for a potentially very accurate fun gun that he can compete against himself with and/or to see how accurate it will shoot and maybe do some field work. Check out the 6mm PPC so to speak.
I don't hesitate for Halveys use to re-recommend the fine Sako single shot bolt Rifle in 6mm PPC - if he can find one?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: Now don't let this posting stick in anyones mind as a blanket condemnation of BR types! In my experience they (the BR types) are a VERY generous, honest, caring and want to share type class of people! For the very most part I enjoy interacting with them BUT - there are some scoundrels and shady types in amongst their relatively small numbers! And again I am not saying anyone selling off a used BR barrel is a scoundrel either - there is just certainly a sound reason that barrel is being sold.
My experiences over the years leads me in the exact opposite direction from buying a "used" barrel for any of my project guns. Especially when accuracy is one of my goals! Let alone cost effectiveness, longevity, avoidance of headaches and future hard feelings will be considered! Yeah just try and hold a seller of a used barrel "to account" when said barrel turns out to be a poor performer. If trouble showed up with a new barrel from a known and reliable barrel maker then there is usually a chance for customer satisfaction to be attained! Not so with ANY used barrel.

get a cooper and dont look back.....
woofer

Just keep buying those factory guns with oversized chambers, rough bores, and try to wring out some decent accuracy. You have more time on your hands than I do and have less expectations of what accuracy is than I do.

I've been down that road. I didn't know what real accuracy was. I would buy the heavy barreled guns, buy several differrent powders, many types of bullets, and spend countless hours trying to get someting out of it.

If that's your bag, by all means continue and have fun. But everyone tries for a better group, over and over. One nice group means nothing until it can be repeated day after day.

Go to Lilja's website and see the borescope video of factory barrels compaired to his. Thewn tell me why your barrels fouls so bad.

Any serious BR shooter will retire a barrel after around 1K rounds. Sometimes less, sometimes more. IF there is enough length left to it, a set back BR barrel is hands down better than most ANY factory barrel. Some shooters have their barrels too short to re-use. Unless you have an XP, it aint much good to you. But many are perfectly fine for another life. And chambered properly, will outshoot a factory barrel easily.

As with anything in life, you gotta prevent yourself from getting ripped off. A used barrel is no different.

Someone that wants a 6PPC is obviously looking for accuracy. The original poster wanted to buy a factory 6PPC. Granted, the Sako is the best bet. But for the price of a Remington and a used barrel, it'll shoot better and have a better chamber.

I posteed this as an OPTION for the original poster, not for argument's sake. I've been down the factory road, there is a better life to be had.

Rws: Well you sound pretty certain of yourself - so certain in fact I want you to tell us exactly how much better your "put together" Rifle on a Remington action with an unknown make and unknown lived, used BR barrel will shoot! Compared to the groups I shot with the factory stock Sako, that I have posted here (the first answer posting to Halveys question)?
And, for espousing your "certainty" in your "blanket" condemnation - I will press you for the EXACT amount (in thousandths of an inch) the "put together" Rifle will produce - group wise!
In anticipation of you not being able or willing to answer my direct question specifically, I will point this out - AGAIN - you are buying a pig in a poke when you even contemplate buying a used BR barrel. If you don't mind gambling away your money and risking the headaches and fiddling and farting around and the eventual financial loss's and the real short barrel of unknown make and life span then MAYBE its reason enough to take the chance! I don't think so anymore.
But I heartily endorse buying a known quality barrel and having a known quality Riflesmith set it up!
Cooper or Sako's offerings will get one a splendid Rifle with good looks, good balance and really good accuracy! Money well invested this - no pig in a poke this! Or one could go with the Remington 700 SA and a top quality, proper, sensible, useful and appropriate length barrel. Then have it carefully smithed by a competent BR type Riflesmith. Also no pig in poke this!
Of the options here listed (the Cooper, the Sako or the Remington with BR barrel) the Cooper or the Sako would probably hold their value better in the long run and therefore be a better investment. All three would certainly result in an accurate and enjoyable Rifle!
The reasons I "just keep buying" factory Rifles (and I buy a lot of them!) is because they are pretty good values, shoot very well and I have never noticed a bad chamber in any of the factory Rifles I have purchased - ever! I also have never been troubled with a factory Rifle that had a bore so rough that it ruined the Rifles accuracy potential!
I have bought lots of factory Rifles recently that, without any tinkering, bedding, crowning, rechambering - nothing more than careful scope mounting and ring lapping along with the occassional trigger job and I have universally been happy OR thrilled with their accuracy!
Again, I refer anyone interested in the groups I shot with the factory Sako they are listed in my original posting on this thread!
To condemn all factory Rifles as being rough bored and crooked chambered and then inferring, in a blanket statement that all factory Rifles are inaccurate is just - ridiculous! And it shows an extreme lack of experience with these type Rifles, that one condemns thusly!
I do have plenty of time to enjoy the factory Rifles I buy - and I am well satisfied with their performance! I also enjoy my MANY custom Rifles with the BR quality barrels on them!
As yet another example of my contention, I am today, waiting out the wind so I can retest my new Remington 700 VSSF Rifle in caliber 220 Swift. The original 5 shot 100 yard groups I shot with this Rifle last month measured .602", .743", .691" and .562"! Now, these are ALL of the groups I have shot with this "factory" Rifle and they were made with 4 different loads using new unfired brass and 3 different Varmint style bullets! No long wasted hours and headaches here - this Rifle shot pretty well from the get go.
Now the next ten bullets that are patiently waiting out the wind with me will use the loading I chose from my original testing. I fully expect these Varmint style bullets in this high intensity cartridge, from my factory stock Rifle, to shoot right at .500" for 5 shots there at 100 yards! Now I am very satisfied accuracy wise, from what this Rifle has done so far for me! And I consider the money I invested in it as money well spent and I am happy with it!
Rws, yes there is a chance I may be shooting fouled barrels with crooked chambers and long throats but I still get great accuracy in my factory Rifles. And the accuracy is long lived, trouble free and pretty consistent!
I have had enough experience with factory and full custom Rifles to know what to expect from each AND how much one has to PAY for each also!
Todays American made (along with the CZ's and the Sako's) factory Rifles are in my mind not "a rip off" but a pretty good investment! One that will most often reward the purchaser with gratifying service and pride of ownership!
Rws, I will be looking forward to your specific answer regarding exactly how much better your "put together" used BR barrelled, 700 actioned Rifle will shoot than my factory Sako!
Be careful when making sweeping declarations and blanket condemnations! There may be someone with enough real experience and a better grasp of reality listening that is liable to call you on them!
I view your blanket condemnation of factory Rifles as ill advised, incorrect and a dis-service to less experienced folks who may be contemplating buying a factory Rifle!
Have fun with your Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

You obviously don't know what a good chamber and good barrel is. Have fun, your very acceptance of .500" 100 yard groups confirms your level of expectations. My accuracy expectations are on a whole different level than yours. Sorry to ruffle your feathers. Enjoy your factory guns.

Rws: Perhaps your feathers are ruffled - you being a strange bird like you are! I usually simply try to ignore blather from blather spreaders but in this instance I choose not to ignore your ridiculous contention! If left uncorrected it might cause decisions by less experienced folks to be unduly influenced!
Are you saying that .500" groups with a factory stock 220 Swift Rifle and Varmint style bullets and a Varmint style scope is POOR shooting?
If you are saying that, then you my fine feathered friend, are simply lacking in real life shooting experience!
Perhaps you can also decry the groups I shot with my Sako bolt action factory Rifle (caliber 6mm PPC) in which I used bullets that I will be using for Varmints!
As you may recall from my original posting the two groups I shot with that factory Rifle gave wonderful groupings!
The two five shot 100 yard groups on that second outing with that Rifle measured .212" and .226"!
This factory stock Rifles level of accuracy IS wonderful and I defy you to critique it in any reasonable way!
You simply can't!
My Sako, in fact, shoots a lot better than I expected a factory Rifle (with bullets suitable for Hunting!) would shoot!
You also simply can not "respond" or give an answer to my direct questions regarding your imprudent, ill advised and incorrect "blanket condemnation" of all factory Rifles!
I do have quite a bit of experience with factory Rifles and I know your contention is simply bogus!
I will again point out your inability or refusal to answer my direct question and ask you once more - please answer that question!
I have a sneeking feeling that like most "bashers" you won't (because you can't!) answer that SINGLE question I posed to you!
Smooth your feathers a bit and put your thinking cap back on and reconsider your outlandish contention and the dis-service it does to those that might read your post!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

You know, you sure do like to argue. All I set out to do was offer an option for the poster. Then you stepped in and started your rant. I never said a .5" group factory gun was bad, I said that you EXCEPT that as accurate and acceptable. I don't. A trued Remington 700 action with a used BR barrel which has 1K rounds thru it is very capable of shooting in the "two's" to "three's", CONSISTANTLY. There is the difference. CONSISTANCY. Does that answer your question? And I maintain that the majority of factory guns, including Sako, is hard pressed to hold that accuracy level CONSISTANTLY. The occasional good group means nothing. Guys like you like to carry around cut out targets in their wallets to brag about. It means nothing unless it is consistant.

I know what a bench gun is capable of, I compete year round, build my own guns. Maintaining an accuracy level thru a 5 group match is something factory guns are hard pressed to do. I've seen it, shot right next to shooters shooting your beloved Sako 6PPC on more than one occasion. Sure, a couple nice groups can be had. But to maintain it shows it is lacking the capability.

You are trying to make yourself into some gun "guru" here, with this arguing. I think most who read thru this rant of yours sees thru your skin. I simply offered an option, you took off on your rant. I don't doubt you spend a lot of time shooting. That's good. But until you know first hand what REAL accuracy is, you should refrain from doubting what BR accuracy is. AND what a decent used barrel is capable of. I have shot many barrels to the point they wouldn't produce a good aggragate. Then taken the same barrel, cut an inch off the chamber end, rethread, recrown and chamber, and right back to great shooting it goes. So I know what they will do.

I will cease this usless exchange here, because it is obvious your intentions are to keep going. If you feel the need to prove yourself, you'll have to do it on another post.

Wow. This sure is going on a lot longer than I expected! Even though there are a lot of different opinions here, I am learning a LOT!

For someone like me just starting out in the "accuracy" game, I'm kind of thinking the Cooper is my best bet.

But I'm still willing to listen to more.

Rws: As I predicted and is so often the case you "blanket" bashers simply can not back up your erroneous contentions!
You may call it arguing - I choose to call it pointing out YOUR inaccuracies and indefensible contentions!
Yes I chose to "ARGUE" with you because you are wrong, way off base and the erroneous contentions you were trying to pass off could mislead someone!
If you are so certain my posting is a rant rws then disprove it!
I have given you at least three opportunities and you can't!
Instead you obfuscate, attempt to besmirch, dance around the issue and refuse to answer the SINGLE - SIMPLE question I asked of you!
You can't answer it and yet, YOU go off on a tear against me? That seems ridiculous!
Just come up with an answer and we will continue the interchange here!
You can't - you won't and I won't let YOU blame me in any way shape or form for your shortcomings!
Don't try that again buddy or I will point it out again and again IF necessary!
Now I never said I was a gun guru or any such thing! That is simply the predictable course you immature bashers take when someone tries to hold you to account! I obviously do have much more real world experience than you have in this matter we are discussing.
Try to defame me if you wish but it is not gonna fly very far at all!
You are the one that can not back up with any fact or experience the outrageous contention YOU made!
I re-interject the fine groups my factory Sako came about to shoot easily and quickly once I bought it and got it to the range!
Those groups let me remind you were .212" and .226"! Factory stock Rifle and common bullets! No muss - no fuss just excellent accuracy!
I have several Remington factory rifles that on the occassions I shoot them for sight verification do nearly this well and usually way under .500" inches for 5 shots at 100 yards!
Guru or not you are trying to persuade folks that may not know any better that factory Rifles are not capable of excellent accuracy. I know better, and no amount of attempted besmirching by you will change that FACT!
You are simply wrong in your contention and I will not hesitate to point out and prove it again for any interested party!
I will add this simple question to the VERY short list of simple questions you refuse to answer!
Is my factory Sako an inaccurate, crooked chambered, rough bored Rifle?
I will be looking forward to seeing how you avoid this simple question. I assume it will be with more "besmirchment of me" attempts by you and "dancing around" the issue by you!
Rws, I do not know where you get off interjecting "bench rest" accuracy in this posting? It is not and was not the intent of the original posting!
Do not attempt, to avoid accountability of yourself, at this late date by changing the parameters of the original question! I will not let you get away with that form of deceit either!
You simply have got to come up with either a plausible answer to my now TWO simple questions (which you OBVIOUSLY can't!) or admit your blanket condemnation was wrong, unfounded and ill advised!
I would be satisfied with either a plausible answer or an admission of error on your part!
You my fine feathered friend, are the one that needs to prove your blanket contention - not me!
I will continue this interchange as long as I choose to, or, until you admit you are wrong!
Also, this "error" appeared in your latest tripeful posting rws - how on Gods green earth do you know that the "USED" BR barrel one is considering buying has ONLY 1,000 rounds through it??? Bad - VERY bad example there!
Remember someone is selling that barrel for a reason!
I am perfectly happy, content and rewarded by the targets my many factory Rifles shoot! And I have never carried a "cut out target" in my wallet in my life! You are simply resorting to "kindergarten like" tactics in trying to attack me!
Its not gonna work little buddy!
You have been called to task repeatedly by me and YOU simply can not answer the pertinent questions I put to you, directly or plausibly!
Your lack of experience and credibility, one would think, would stop you from digging yourself further into the hole you have already gotten yorself!
I simply can not get over the fact that you would in ANY WAY try to decry the accuracy so many hundreds of thousands of people get from various factory arms! It would make one wonder (if what you contend WERE TRUE!) why so many folks keep buying factroy Rifles?
Not even a "nice try" can be given for your lastest tripe filled posting. You are gonna have to come up with my requested "direct and exact" answers or go sit in the corner (like any other bad kindergartener).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

If I may interject...

I'm leaning Cooper because I like the lines/looks more than the Sako. I guess something RWS said hit me was

quote:

---

I would buy the heavy barreled guns, buy several differrent powders, many types of bullets, and spend countless hours trying to get someting out of it.

---

Since I am looking at the Cooper in 6PPC, how will this compare to a Sako or a custom build up on a 700 action as far as accuracy? I mean, will one or the other give a GENERALLY tighter group?

I guess I want a good caliber/gun combo that will give me some real good accuracy. I'd define that as all holes touching - at least.

For my pistols I like to get my load for the gun then shoot the heck out of it. I don't tinker at the reloading bench a whole lot after I've gotten the proper load. In fact, if I have to search TOO much for a load, I either retire or sell the gun. That's why, at least for 1911's, I stick with the semi-custom or high end Kimbers.

Now I understand rifles are different, but I hope that clarify's my approach to this.

Thanks in advance for the replies.