The new 25wssm pushes 115gr bullet at 3000fps,has anyone seen one of these? Is it really that much better than the old 25.06?

dasmafia--why is it that you believe that the 25 WSM or the 25 SAUM would make for the 257 Wby to become a joke?

Just curious?

Thanks

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Dutch,

I normally find just about whatever you say, is right on.

However, on saying the 257 Roberts is dead? it may be dead as far as marketing depts go, or those who don't have a clue and buy whatever is the latest hype is generating.

however on performance, there is not a thing dead about a 257 Roberts, especially with loads put together on a reloading bench.

It does what ever the trendy stuff will do, with a lot less fuss, and it has a history and tradition to it that the new stuff will take decades to achieve, if they even survive the market.

Sure someone may have to give up 50 yds or so in point blank range. However considering that most game is taken under 200 yrds, I fail to see where a Roberts is handicapped to any other larger 25 caliber offering, short mag, or Weatherby mag.

All of this short mag, and Weatherby mag talk always reminds me of reading my children the old Story of the Emperor's New Clothes. ( Even tho he is stark naked, everyone is saying that his new clothes are grand. and it takes the common sense of a child to believe what he sees, instead of being told what he should see).

If I saw two new rifles setting side by side in a store and they were both from the same manufacturer, looked the same, felt the same, etc. One was chambered in a 250 Savage and the other in a 25 WSSM, I would take the 250 Savage any day of the week over the other.

As dopey as the public is now adays, if the 25WSSM had been out for 75 yrs, and the 250 Savage was the new cartridge, everyone would be touting the Savage round instead.

Seafire, no argument here: I think the 250Savage is probably the single best "all-round" cartridge out there. The 243 and 6mm killed it (and I hate them both for that.....). As far as the Bob, it is a marvelous cartridge, with a near ideal level of performance.

Unfortunately, it's a bastard case length, and the low Saami pressure limit makes it "anemic". Whatever that means! Let me rephrase then: as a commercially loaded cartridge, the Bob is dead.

But, here is the 25WSSM, and we have a cartridge with the same case capacity as the Roberts, a "really short" case length, and ordained with an "adult" pressure limit at Saami. This is not a bad combination. As long as it is chambered in an action designed for it, all this is good.

Short of the 250 Savage, I don't think you could design a cartridge with better "light big game" performance. Not once you balance recoil, muzzle blast, bullet performance, rifle length, etc, etc. I'd buy my kids one, but they have elk on the menu, and that's where I draw the line.

If the 25Rsaum comes out, it will positively kill the 25-06. I don't, however, think that a 25RSAUM offers any benefit to 99% of the hunting public, compared to the 25WSSM. Louder, more barrel hungry (70 grain case capacity - ouch), more recoil, etc, etc. I have the historical track record to back me up in that assertion: when you look at rifle sales, those rifles chambered for the "over bore" chamberings have not exactly set any records. Where is the 8mm Rem Mag? The 7 mm STW? The 358Norma? The .264 Win? The 300 Wby or Ultra? What about the Swift? The 6mm Rem? Even the 25/06 is not really a major mover.

Then again, that's why there's competition. JMO, Dutch.

To me the 25WSSM sounds like a modernized "Bob". Short action, 120gr bullets at about 3000 fps. Sounds ideal for the type of hunting that I do. Ok, I already have a 25/06, 2 257 Bob's and a 257AI. But I'll probably but a WSSM anyway....

The Bob will live forever. Long live the Bob. I have a Ruger M77 MarkII in a Bob. 50 grains of H4831SC sends a Hornady 117 SST at 3000 fps from a 22"inch barrel. 50 grains of RL 19 sends a 100 grain Nosler Partition at 3200 fps. Eventhough speed isn't everything. The Bob can run with the best of the quarter bores. Also makes a great reduced load rifle for my nine year old son. 21 grains of XMP 5744 under a Hornady 87 grain SP. 2100 fps. LONG LIVE THE BOB !!!!!!

I have a "Bob" myself and love it! It is one of many overlooked rounds. Jack O'Conners' wife Elenor used a .257 Roberts a lot. She killed more game with her "Bob" than most of these modern day gun "experts". If it worked poorly I'm quite sure Jack would have found her something else to use in short order!
As for the .25 WSSM.....whats the point? It won't outperform the .250 Savage really. In my way of thinking they have set themselves up for a fall. I was looking for the day when a .257 WSM would be available. It would be overbore but it would be in the same velocity class as the .257 Wby in a short package. That IS new and something to brag about.
If there were any truth in advertising some of these cartridges would never go anywhere.
How is the Rem SAUM line doing compared to the WSM line? The WSM holds more powder and is selling better. Shows what people judge them buy.

Funny how USRAC came up with the WSM and Remington the SAUM right after Rick Jamison started writing about his line of short fat mags in Shooting times, makes me wonder!

If I wanted a really short.223 ( a-la .223 WSSM) I could have been using the .22 BR Rem or the .22 PPC for many years prior and not been able to really tell a diference. The 6mm BR, 6mm PPC, 7mm BR have been available for years and are all but gone. What about the 6mmx45mm? The list goes on and on. Two more I thought should have been of more interest were the .257 Durham Jet and the .257 DGR. They both offer something.
Where did these business guys come from? What do they think the marketing guys are going to be able to make up for?People will buy anthing, if it's new some just have to be the first to say they have one. It doesn't meen the line will remain successful. Are they just hoping to make enough $$$ here and now to make it worth it?
I'm dissapointed Winchester didn't ask around before commiting to the .223,.243 & .25 WSSM. Even car manufactures have prototypes to gauge public interest. Guess I held back a little. Maybe I should say how I really feal!!!!! Nate

The only problem I see with this new round is that is chambered in two pieces of crap: Browning and Winchester.

Sort of been thinking about this for awhile - seems like most everyone has a high regard for the 257R - but it really needs to be handloaded for performance and as loaded by the factory (not counting HE loads) the pressures are low because of so many older rifles out there that were chambered for the 257 when 42,000 cup was the limit for their actions. Now Winchester comes out with basically a sooped up 257 Roberts - on a short action - and in a case that should deliver optimum acuracy. Based on all the favorable response on a John Barness article about low recoiling hunting rifles - especially 25 cal, I would think this offering could be the best of the new fat case rounds - if there is no feeding problems.

Not a wssm but a WSM, my 257WSM gets 3225fps with 115gr Partitions and 3370 with 100gr BT's. I think that is real short magnum performance in a short action. I haven't loaded up the rounds as far as they will go either. Recoil is a strong push and not a kick. Accuracy is outstanding. No groups over .626" for 3 shots yet.

Brian how longth is the tube on your 25 WSM?

Thanks

Dogz

"GET TO THE HILL"

Barrel is 26.125" from muzzle to bolt face. Shilen select match #5 contour SS. Chamber is a "tite neck" with minimum chamber clearence. When I reload the shells the sizer die only resizes the neck .002" I can feel no resistance as it goes over the case until it reaches the neck area. Necks are turned to .284"OD for a .286"ID neck chambering. Chrono is set 15' from muzzle.

I give the 25wssm my thumbs down for several reasons. Why do they want to duplicate the 25-06 which is a very fine cartridge???? The different in time taken to cycle a standard lenth action and that of the ss action is next to nill. The difference in weight between the two actions is negligible. I can't buy that this new cartridge is going to be that much more accurate than the old 25-06. And the 25-06 is often bragged to be the perfect heavy varmit round and light thin skinned game round. For the Medium sized thin skinned game I don't see where the 25wssm will be at much of a disadvantage with it's reduced magazine capacity, if you can't drop a deer in 2 shots it's time to stop firing!! But if you're after varmits it's a whole other ball game and I feel that the limited mag. cap. of the wssm will be a great handicap for many. This was one of the big qualms I had when I saw the first specs. on the 223,243WSSM's They're actually a step in the wrong direction!! For varmitting you would want a larger cap. mag. NOT A SMALLER ONE!!!!!! So in my mind if you want a short action 25 stick with the 25 BOB!

Very short sighted on Winchester's part if you ask me!

Tdobesh,

Let's answer your questions one at a time.

"Why a new cartridge similar to the 25/06?"
1) The 25-06 is a REMINGTON cartridge
2) new cartridges sell guns

"Bolt length is irrelevant":

No, it isn't. When you have a long neck like I do, a long bolt pops your glasses everytime. Plus, a long bolt DOES take longer to cycle, even if it is a little.

"The difference in weight is neglible":

No it isn't. Guys on mountain hunts spend a fortune to lose the difference in weight. These are the same guys that drill holes in their tooth brushes to lose weight.

"Limited magazine capacity is a handicap":

No, not really. If you run three or four rounds through a WSSM, so fast you can't reload, you need to quit shooting for a while. It's not a prairy dog round. This thing heats up.

"For varmitting you would want a larger cap. mag. NOT A SMALLER ONE!!!!!!"

Well, lets try and stick with one train of thought, shall we? The 25 WSSM DOES have less case capacity than the 25-06. Does that mean you now, all of a sudden, like it?

For long range varminting, i.e. coyotes or rock chucks, having a case with lots of case capacity is wonderful. The ability to shoot heavier bullets at good speeds reduces wind deflection, which is the major limiting factor. Maybe not on prairie dogs, but in reality, very few guns are PD guns. FWIW, Dutch.

my Shilen 26 inch bbled 25-06 runs 120 Hornady Interlocked Hollow Points at 3250 with a bunch of RL22.the Federal 120 Sierra Gameking Factory loads clock 3125.with 100 Partitions and IMR-4831 I get 3425 fps and both loads avg under .7.

What I would like is a 257 STW and for Nosler to start making a 130 Partition.Talk about a lazer beam.

Dutch,

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the virtues if any of the 25 wssm. I guess I should have been more specific in what I said on some of me points and you should have been more careful in reading what I said.

When I said that the 25-06 is a very fine cartridge I should have said that it is a very versitile cartride. Many in my area of the world feel that it is the best compromise for everything from small varmits to deer sized game. In response to you statement that the 25wssm is not a PD round, you're quite right!! That makes my point that because of lower magazine capacity Winchester has created a cartridge less versitile as a varmit cartridge than the 25-06 that they are trying to replace!!!! If you are going to tell me that the 25-06 is not a PD cartrdge either,I know several guys around here who will beg to differ!! They feel that for long range PD shooting you won't find a better cartridge and I'm sure they still feel that way! As far as the barrel heating up they have no problem emptying a full mag. of 5 shots through a 25-06 with out barrel heat problems. So if the short fat case is supposed to be so efficient and use less powder to do the same job how is it that you'll need to stop after 3-4 shots to cool your 25wssm to keep it from over heating??? ???

From the standpoint of deer sized game I totally agree, that if after 3 shots you can't put it down you should just quit shooting. In such a case the wssm is at no disadvantage. I thought I had made that clear in my first post. I guess not.

In response to the bolt length issue. No noticable difference to me. If you compare the Winchester/Browning super short action to a regular short action I can't even tell when I handle one and then set it down and handle the other. So if you get a good gun chambered in 250 savage ore 257 roberts I'd be happier. As far as your long neck, I guess that's a problem you'll have to deal with. I guess what I'm saying is that NO turnbolt action is that elegant to cycle, so what's the difference?! I'd definately prefer a good straight pull bolt or better still a lever action or pump! Unfortunately the latter two are not ideal for high pressure cartridges.

As far as the weight issue if I'm not going more than 10 miles a day for more than 3 days in a row, still not an issue to me. I'd never notice a measly little 2 lb difference.

So this brings us to the 2 points you opened your reply to me with. One the 25-06 has Remington's name attached to it and we all know how the gun company's ego's are as large as any 2 year old's and they don't want their competition's name on their guns. And point 2 the fact that the 25 wssm is a "new" cartridge and yes their ad guys know that anything marked "new" will sell, at least for a little while, driving their sales up. I'll take that a step further and say that in this case the short fat fad is really hot right now so that adds to the appeal for many and Winchesters marketing guys are also trying to take advantage of the fad that if it says Winchester, short, and magnum it's the greatest hot new thing! In this case I don't see anything that's "magnum" about this cartridge.

So, basically what this cartridge happens to be is a marketing gimmick for Winchester/Browning to try to sell a bunch of guns that no one REALLY NEEDS . At least that's what I see coming out of this cartridge.

I could be wrong, but I see this one going the way of the dodo bird. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

Anyway like I opened up, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

tdobesh,

this is in no way meant to start a flame or anything. but in your post you state that browning/winchester are producing cartridges that no one needs. who are you to tell anyone what they do or dont need. if you dont like the cartridge design don't buy it. but for a person just getting into the sport it may be a viable option. also women and children who want to get into the sport may find that these smaller lighter rifles fit them better and are able to handle the recoil better. i also think that it is great that these companies are trying to improve on older time tested cartridges. they may not blowout the older rounds but they match their performance and that is what browning/winchester have stated. yes you can load a round for the .25/06 that will smoke the .25wssm so what maybe someone just wants .25/06 performance in an action that is shorter and lighter. i myself prefer heavy guns as to lighter guns that is just me. i know that its merits or downfalls have not been proven, but let the cartridge show that. it may turn out to be a dog, it may also turn out to be a great round. i just hate to see people talking about something they have no experience with and telling people that it was a bad design. yes that is your opnion, but not everyone may have that opnion.....blake..

Desh, well, there you have it. If you don't notice 2 extra lbs on a deer rifle, you are just more of a man than I am...... Dutch.