Well varmint season is starting to be seen over the horizon.. I am getting more email requests all of a sudden for load data.. in various calibers besides 223...

However, I also get the usual number of questions from people who haven't tried it, won't ever try it and think those that do, are playing Russian Roulette with their health and safety....

First, I have never received an email from anyone at all in over 4 years now about a problem with Blue Dot in a rifle... but I sure have had a boatload of requests for data, in about any caliber you could think of....it has been safe in my rifle, and safe in other people's rifles evidently.. no one is complaining it has been a problem.. or dangerous..

However, for a short list of WHY I use blue dot in the 223 for sage rats.. and prairie dogs...

1. Economy... 500 rounds to a pound of powder.. this gets more appealing as the cost of shooting goes up..

2. Accuracy... Blue Dot has proven to be one of the most consistently accurate powders of any I have handloaded, in any caliber.. and the chronographed velocities contain the lowest deviation spread that I have seen on ANY powder.

3. Barrel Wear... using a max of 14 grains of Blue Dot in a 223, barrel wear is kept down dramatically... I personally had one rifle that was maintaining accuracy when I traded it that had 15,000 rounds down the barrel.. and the person who got it, put another 2000 rounds down it, and at 17,000 rounds down the barrel, it would still turn in groups that could be covered by a dime at 100 yds...

4. Barrel heat.. in the field when the shooting gets quick and fast, using only 14 grains of powder max, it takes a long time for the barrels to heat up and make accuacy decline... the barrel also cools down much quicker if you let it rest, because it didn't heat up that much in the first place...I have spent an afternoon shooting 500 rounds of 223 ammo loaded with Blue Dot and never had to set the rifle off to the side to cool, because of barrel heat... I did have to take a breather to drink some water, or eat a sandwich.. of give my eyes a rest from scope squint... but not because of barrel heat... 500 rounds in 5 hours, I didn't stop to let the rifle cool down... 3 to 4 shots every 2 minutes and you can shoot all afternoon with Blue Dot in the 223...

4. Barrel Cleaning? even tho I always take a Bore Snake and some oil in the field with me, to clean the barrel when the accuracy goes away... even on 400 and 500 round days, I don't stop to clean the bore with Blue Dot, accuracy just seems to hang in there...

5. Lack of Recoil... with only 14 grains of powder or less, recoil is so low, that you will not loose site picture in your scope.. and you can see your hits thru the scope.. recoil is so low, that it will NOT cycle the bolt on an AR or a Mini 14... being able to see your hits, and lack of recoil are two big features that folks cheer about the 204 Ruger...

6. Noise.. and Scareing the game away... when you are burning 14 grains of powder or less, you have a lot less Kaboom, out of the barrel compared to loads that are burning 24 to 28 grains of powder.. people complain that sage rats and prairie dogs get wise to the shooting because of the noise... well with Blue Dot and 14 grains of that, I am not noticing the varmints only appearing further out... at times they are back up and close enough to my truck ( I shoot off the hood of it most of the time).. that they are a blur in a 4 x 16 scope turned down to 4 power! I have to wack them with a 10/22 and a 1.5 x 4 scope because they are so close... so evidently the noise from the 223 isn't scareing them away and to come up further out....

This is put forth strictly for the 223.. and prairie dogs and sage rats...

however, I am still looking at velocities of 3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, 3800 fps with 30 grain Berger bullets, and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets....

so I am getting 22 hornet noise, recoil and barrel heat/wear.. with MVs that are much higher and much more accurate than the averaqe Hornet will give you...

with the rising costs of primers, the primer actually figures higher into the cost per round , than the powder does using Blue Dot...

So all in all I thought I'd put this general notification out and hopefully answer a lot of questions that I get every season on this...

cheers
seafire
Feb 2008..

Just starting to load for a 223, not sure if Blue Dot is available iin the UK, but if it was, why is everybody not using it for the 223?

Is it untested? High pressure? Inconsistant? or what.

All of the observations that Seafire makes would seem to make it an ideal choice?

Nightwalker: Blue Dot won't give you the optimum (maximum) velocities of near 3300 fps (55 grain bullet) that other, slower powders will. Seafire's point is that with it a .223 will give you performance better than a .22 Hornet -- roughly .221 Fireball power. And unlike most "reduced loads", Blue Dot as the propellant provides extremely consistent velocities.

Blue Dot is not normally listed in loading manuals for high intensity centerfire rounds simply because it is not a maximum velocity powder in those rounds. And because much of the shooting world is still discovering its unique properties. Most Blue Dot loads won't reliably cycle semi-auto actions, so it is not indicated for those guns.

quote:

Originally posted by nightwalker uk:
Just starting to load for a 223, not sure if Blue Dot is available iin the UK, but if it was, why is everybody not using it for the 223?

Is it untested? High pressure? Inconsistant? or what.

All of the observations that Seafire makes would seem to make it an ideal choice?

I also was turned onto Blue Dot by Seafire.My biggest concern in using it ,however is trowing a double charge. With most powders we use in rifles, a double charge will over flow and spill all over the place. Been there done that. That's a good thing.

That does not happen with Blue Dot and if you don't check every case it could be dangerous. I personally use a graduated dowel rod to maintain that each powder level is consistant.

Using Blue Dot can be ,and is, a real plus but your attention when loding must absolutely be focused. roger

Depends on how much you are using. I double charged my first case this morning with Blue Dot. It was a 12.7gr load and the second charge definitely overflowed the case.

for those of you that have shot 60gr bullets with blue dot in your .223, which 60gr hunting bullet is the most accurate?

i am going to get a stevens 200 .223. i want to use it for 150 yard or less shots for deer (neck shots only).

since the 22" barrel has a 1-9 twist, i want to use heavier bullets. since the blue dot has less noise that would be a bonus to shoot hogs in the head without disturbing the deer too much.

is the 60gr the heaviest bullet you can use with blue dot to humanely kill deer? i would not want something too slow that it is impractical (like effect penetration).

i know seafire posted this for p-dogs and rats, but maybe it could work for what i want it for too, if not, then it did not hurt any animals for me to ask first.

Steven, the only problem with Blue Dot and bullets heavier than 55 grains is the loss of velocity...

the only real henderence I see there is range reduction...

if you are using it at 150 yds or less, then you are having realistic expectations...

I am going to recommend the 60 grain Sierra HP and the 60 grain V Max to try out... also the 63 grain Sierra SMP would also be a good candidate....

I'd recommend starting out at about 10 or 11 grains and the max should be around 12 to 12.5 grains...

I don't know how you prefer to test your bullets capabilities... here in Oregon, I just use trees as a test, since I live in the middle of heavily forested country... but milk jugs and water are also good test media..

of the tree bullets I mentioned above, ( your and maybe the new 60 grain Ballistic Tip) your velocity should be in the 2400 to 2600 fps range... Within 100 to 150 yds, I think you will be surprised on the penetration potential of those bullets....

hopefully you have a chronograph to tell you the velocity of your load...zero 2.5 to 3 inches high at 100 yds, and you will have a 200 yd load there....

you may have to pick your shot placement a little tighter, but I am sure you were aware of that...

they will easily take most Oregon Blacktails, so they will easily take S. Texas whitetails also...

on hogs, I can't offer any experience, so I will have to defer that to some of our Texas members or maybe some of our California members...

seafire,
thanks for the reply.

yes, i do have a chrono and i will def. use it to see where it would be at.

what new 60gr ballistic tip are you talking about?

i would not want to use a v-max bullet on deer, even if it is a neck shot.
so if the 60-63gr bullets penetrate, then they will reliably expand as well then?

i just looked at my .223 loadbook and saw that the 63gr sierra SMP has an accuracy load for RE-7. i was suprised to see that, i thought RE-7 was for light bullets only in .223, guess not.

maybe i would be better suited to use that combo in the 20.5 grains they advise of, it would not be that loud, would it? is there that much of a diff. in 20grs of powder to 12 grs as far as the noise?

quote:

Originally posted by Sburd:
Depends on how much you are using. I double charged my first case this morning with Blue Dot. It was a 12.7gr load and the second charge definitely overflowed the case.

OK roger

I'll bet there's been more rifles blown up by people trying to load them down with powder(s) not intended for them, than people hot-rodding the piss out of them with the proper powder(s)........

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
I'll bet there's been more rifles blown up by people trying to load them down with powder(s) not intended for them, than people hot-rodding the piss out of them with the proper powder(s)........

And I will agree, more people screw up things in this world, that don't have a clue what they are doing, than those that DO know what they are doing, or at least know viable parameters in which to experiment...

Good information Seafire. I've been using Bluedot for reduced loads in 223 and 308 since you reported on it. Both work splendidly on coyotes, have yet to line up on a pig, they seem to have disappeared from our area.

Gidday Seafire,

I have yet to determine where bluedot is available down here but it may be a good load to try in the .222 rem that I'm picking up from the smith in the morning.

The muzzle end was belled so I have had five inches docked off the end giving it a 17.5" barrel. Surely a faster powder (blue dot) will perform better in such a barrel than the ussual benchrest and reduce the sheet of flame I'm now expecting.

This rifle is also a candidate for a moderator to reduce the muzzle blast.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
I'll bet there's been more rifles blown up by people trying to load them down with powder(s) not intended for them, than people hot-rodding the piss out of them with the proper powder(s)........

And I will agree, more people screw up things in this world, that don't have a clue what they are doing, than those that DO know what they are doing, or at least know viable parameters in which to experiment...

not being able to find any load data for blue dot for .223 or 30-06, could anyone help me out with data?
I was wanting to load my .223 with 36gr varmint grenades or 53gr matchkings at hornet speeds for foxes in built up areas
And 30-06 with either 240, 180 or 150gr projectiles pref 240 or at least 180gr
down to a velocity that is easier on the ears

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
Gidday Seafire,

I have yet to determine where bluedot is available down here but it may be a good load to try in the .222 rem that I'm picking up from the smith in the morning.

My .222 has digested up to 13.2gr. of Blue Dot with various 55gr. bullets with good accuracy and no pressure problems.The velocity averages a little over 2700 fps.The rifle was a CZ 527,w/ 22" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Sburd:
Depends on how much you are using. I double charged my first case this morning with Blue Dot. It was a 12.7gr load and the second charge definitely overflowed the case.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing....

I have 30cases loaded with BlueDot and 40gr Nosler BT's and That's the first thing I tried
so SEE if a double charge would fit, not a chance!

So that concern is moot.

I decided to try it because.. what the hell I have thousands of once fired 223 military cases
and cheap practice ammo that DOES NOT heat the barrel up (atleast not as fast) can only be a good thing... I HATE barrel mirage!

quote:

Originally posted by steven g:

i just looked at my .223 loadbook and saw that the 63gr sierra SMP has an accuracy load for RE-7. i was suprised to see that, i thought RE-7 was for light bullets only in .223, guess not.

maybe i would be better suited to use that combo in the 20.5 grains they advise of, it would not be that loud, would it? is there that much of a diff. in 20grs of powder to 12 grs as far as the noise?

Personally I always liked Sierra's data for the 223Rem with Reloader7 but I usually loaded 50-55gr bullets in the rifle I had at the time, a Ruger Mini14, though it did well in two different AR's owned by friends...

The thing they liked most was the absence of flash as compared with H335.



AD

[/QUOTE]
Personally I always liked Sierra's data for the 223Rem with Reloader7
[/QUOTE]


I was suprised when i saw it, i thought it was a diff. powder. it read RE-7 and not the RL 7 that i am use to seeing.
i will probably just try the blue dot for 55gr bullets instead of using it for 60gr and above.

I don't understand the double charge problem. I don't know how other people set up but I put my empty cases in one tray to the left of my funnel and the full ones to my right near my press. That is if I am useing my digital dispenser. If useing a powder measure I put the emptys on the left side of the charger. When useing the funnel the next case goes in upside down while the dispenser is measuring out the next load. All you have to do is pay attention to what you are doing.

Wel a batch of new posts here since I was last one...

Steve G.
Blue Dot is not my only 223 powder, I use a lot of others depending on what I am in the field for... However, RL 7 is one of my favorite powders for the 223... for both velocity and accuracy... most load data is low on the pressure with RL 7 for some reason.. but it is an excellent powder..

Ausvarminter

drop me a PM, and let me know exactly what you are looking for, along with an email address and I can set you up with Blue Dot load data for the 223, and the 06....

Hamish

drop me a PM, and I can also set you up.. let me know what you are looking for.. I have done Blue Dot data for the 223, with 30 to 55 grain bullets...including the 36 grain varmint grenade and the 30 grain Berger HP....

Not sure how it would work with a silencer on the end of the muzzle.. but maybe you can furnish a report on that after you have tried it...

on the thread with the same title on the Varmint forum above, I posted load data for Blue Dot and the 223, in response to a few folks questions there...

it should provide most of the info anyone would be looking for...

cheers
seafire

Golly! Try a double charge of 10 gr. roger

Hi Seafire
I think I sent you a PM on the 12th
I've never done it before. could you let me know if it went through Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by ausvarminter:
Hi Seafire
I think I sent you a PM on the 12th
I've never done it before. could you let me know if it went through Thanks

email with info sent...

how fast does the pressure build up when loading down?
Is it the same as maxing a load out?
Do you have to look for anything in particular other than the standard signs of over pressure?
I've never done loading other than straight from the book and after hearing a case on a 22LR rupture on the weekend, don't want to stuff up.
Is molly coating an option to reduce pressure?

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Golly! Try a double charge of 10 gr. roger

That would fit in the case and hopefully one would see the huge difference in powder height. If not, don't ever attempt target loads with H38, AA#2, WW231, Bullseye or any of the other numerous such handgun loads listed in the reloading manuals. They are much harder to catch. I keep a flashlight next to the reloading bench and shine it into my cases after dropping in the charges. I set myself up a routine with extra safety steps plugged in when working with pistol target loads because I know if anybody can do something wrong it is probably me. Others with better attention spans or more grey matter might not need the extra checks. We all should know our limitations and work accordingly. If using Blue Dot in rifle loads makes one nervous it is probably best to avoid the practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Sburd:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Golly! Try a double charge of 10 gr. roger

That would fit in the case and hopefully one would see the huge difference in powder height. ------ If using Blue Dot in rifle loads makes one nervous it is probably best to avoid the practice.

No arguement here! If you choose to miss the point ( HEADS UP ) just shine it on. roger

Seafire I it possible to use magnum pistol primers with the Blue Dot Loads? I have 1K of them and no pistol to use them in.

Assuming that you are speaking of "small" primers as used in .222 & .223, yes, the pistol primer should work fine.

If speaking of "large" primers (.22-250, .243, .308, etc), the depth of the cup is shorter on LP primers as compared to LR primers, so substituting them is not a good idea.

14.4-14.5gr of BD behind 40gr Vmaxes with a Federal small pistol primer will make a believer out of you!

I found several other accuracy nodes in the 9-10gr range.

24" 1:9 twist barreled Savage bolt-action.

quote:

Originally posted by kelbro:
14.4-14.5gr of BD behind 40gr Vmaxes with a Federal small pistol primer will make a believer out of you!

I found several other accuracy nodes in the 9-10gr range.

24" 1:9 twist barreled Savage bolt-action.

If you want another fun load.. try 15.5 grains of Blue Dot behind a 30 grain HP Berger...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by kelbro:
14.4-14.5gr of BD behind 40gr Vmaxes with a Federal small pistol primer will make a believer out of you!

I found several other accuracy nodes in the 9-10gr range.

24" 1:9 twist barreled Savage bolt-action.

If you want another fun load.. try 15.5 grains of Blue Dot behind a 30 grain HP Berger...

Seafire2

Sorry for coming to the party late but...... is your recommended loan for the Blue Dot and 30 grain HP Berger the one at 15.5 grains?? Is this the one previously referred to as around 3800 fps? Also was this velocity acheived in a 26" barrel?

I've enjoyed your recommendations for the RL-7 loads with the 40 grain Nosler BT and have gone with 27.0 or 26.0 with that load depending on the dynamics of two different .223's. I've had velocities at 3925 fps with each one of those loads out of two Remmy 700's with a 26" tubes.

I would be interested in hearing your experience in the field with that 30 grain Berger also. Thanks again for your great input on this board and help you provide to others.

Yes, 15.5 is the load that I do.. accuracy was stellar.. very very tight group.. even for Blue Dot...its accuracy was worth the extra cost of the Berger Bullets..

I know I tried 13 grs behind a 55 gr bullet in my 223 TC contender and it turns the dimple in the primer inside out. Be careful with these loads as far as dbl charging. Why this load shows such high pressure signs in my rifle is a mystery!

Do you have a tight chamber?

Did you also work your loads up in your contender?

What were primers looking like at 12.5 grains or so?

Blue Dot will not pressure spike like other powders, so working up should have indicated high pressure before you got to the 13 grain loads..

I use 13.5 grains as the load for my bolt 223s, with no problems whatsoever...

sounds like you have a tight chamber and/or tight neck.. working up should have caught the problem before it reared its head at 13 grains...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...I am still looking at velocities of 3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets......

Hey Seafire, 1. Are you getting those Velocities without piercing the Pistol Primers?

2. What kind of CHE & PRE are you getting?

3. How many times can you reload a Case using those Loads before the Primer Pockets loosen?

4. What barrel length are you using?

Those Velocities seem way too close to the SAFE MAX velocities developed when using much slower Powders for them to be SAFE.

Well HoTCore;

1. In those kind of loads the primer most often used is Winchester LR, or CCI or Rem 7 1/2 when the Wincheseters aren't available but the others are...

2. You'll have to explain to me what CHE and PRE mean.. "PRE" are you referring to pressure???

3. How amny times can I load a case before the primer pocket loosens? Well that is not the problems... either neck splits or the case developing cracks at the web around the 8th plus reload.. I usually give a case a life span of 10 reloads in a lot number and then depending on how many there are... they get scrapped or regulated down to low pressure loads or experimenting...

4. Barrel length... 26 inch normally ....chronographed originally in a Ruger VT... Chronographed in a Rem VLS gave pretty much the same and also in a 24 inch ADL barrel...

40 grains and under do show some imporessive velocities...for the amount of powder used...

But gettting a life span of 10 reloads or so out of used brass, that normally I either get at the range on the ground.. or brass I have bought for $35.00 to $45.00 per thousand, I can live with that kind of life span...

Yeah brass prices are up, but I still pick up range brass, and I have stock piled about 6,000 rounds of brass already...

My biggest concern is primer availability.. I only stock 1,000 to 1500 small rifle primers normally, along with a 1,000 or so of small pistol...

quote:

Originally posted by Buster:
I'll bet there's been more rifles blown up by people trying to load them down with powder(s) not intended for them, than people hot-rodding the piss out of them with the proper powder(s)........

There it is, my sentiments exactly.
The reason guys can't seem to find loads for Blue dot in the Books for their .223's and such is that the maker of it states it is absolutely not intended as a replacement for the appropriate powders. Blue Dot is an extremely fast shotgun and pistol powder that works ok for seriously reduced loads. It is not intended as a replacement for recommended much slower burning .223 powders.
Several years ago on another site I frequent there was a picture of a guys eye just after surgery when his reduced load of Blue Dot in a .223 catastrophically blew his contender to pieces. One a those pictures that kinda made ya weak in the knees thinking about it. Pretty spooky.
Call Alliant Powders and ask for the Technical dept. you'll talk to Ben Amonette, the number is 1-800-276-9337. By the way, he doesn't want to be involved in an internet , nor do I. But ask him what he thinks of the .223 velocities friend seafire is getting with Blue Dot and various weight projectiles. Those are starting level regular .223 loads, not reduced loads.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure I'm not cause I researched this with Alliant etc. quite a bit before I spoke up the first time quite a while back but if I am I'll be the first to admit it. I'm sure not trying to argue with the guys on this site I respect and enjoy discussing things with and if your convinced you know your loads are safe I'm sure you'll use em and ignore me. That's just fine but at least I stated my opinion. I just can't get past the pictures of that fella's eye and the fact it was a reduced load of Blue dot that did it.
I'm an unapologetic safety freak but that don't mean that I'm in anyway trying to impugn anyones reloading credentials or make you do things my way. Simply giving you something to think about and if you have any doubts call Alliant and see what their take is.
Blue Dot for highly reduced loads preferably with cast bullets is one thing (I've done that myself with NECO's FireLapping kit), loading jacketed bullets to beginning level standard loads within a few hundred fps of an upper end loads with small amounts of super fast pistol and shotgun powders to save money on powder is another deal all together.
No hard feelings, just varying opinions on what's safe in reloading. In the mean time safe shooting to all.

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:
Gidday Seafire,

I have yet to determine where bluedot is available down here but it may be a good load to try in the .222 rem that I'm picking up from the smith in the morning.

Vihta N110 is a very good alternative to Alliant's Blue Dot and works well in my .222, among others.

It is however not so "fluffy", means that double loads are not so easy to recognize. Always double check, then check once more.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
Well HoTCore;

1. In those kind of loads the primer most often used is Winchester LR, or CCI or Rem 7 1/2 when the Wincheseters aren't available but the others are...

Well Seafire, I'd say you are treading on disaster for someone. You used to advocate using Pistol Primers for your non-factory Tested Blue Dot Loads and now you have moved to Rifle Primers. I thought you always advocated Down-Loads (reduced velocity) using Blue Dot which I can see will work SAFELY with Pistol Primers to SAFE GUARD the Pressure Spikes. You might get a Pierced Primer, but the chances of Blowing Up a rifle are greatly reduced. That Safety Valve is removed with Rifle Primers.

For the Beginners who think you can SAFELY duplicate the Velocities I questioned with Blue Dot("3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets"), the problem is a rapid rising and just as rapid falling "Peak Pressure" in order to achieve the velocities Seafire is claiming. Using much Slower Powders, there is still a rapid rise to Peak Pressure(but not quite as fast), but the Peak will not be anywhere near as high.

Plus the Slower Powders will fall(from their lower Peak Pressure) at a much less rapid rate. That proper Powder dynamic provides a SAFE sustained accelleration Push on the Bullet Base, which results in a SAFE MAX velocity at SAFE Peak Pressures.

quote:

2. You'll have to explain to me what CHE and PRE mean.. "PRE" are you referring to pressure???

This is the worst possible situation I can imagine. Here Seafire is recommending Blue Dot Loads which appear to be way over Peak Pressure and he is doing nothing to verify the acutal Pressure Expansion in comparison to a Factory Load. Well Seafire, I simply can not believe you would be so wreckless with recommending such potentially dangerous Loads. And even worse to have no understanding at all about the two main Pressure Indicators available to all Reloaders.

Any of you Beginners who believe you can SAFELY duplicate "3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets" using Blue Dot without using good old time proven never fail CHE & PRE are on the road to disaster.

quote:

3. How amny times can I load a case before the primer pocket loosens? Well that is not the problems... either neck splits or the case developing cracks at the web around the 8th plus reload.. I usually give a case a life span of 10 reloads in a lot number and then depending on how many there are... they get scrapped or regulated down to low pressure loads or experimenting...

Well Seafire, Apparently that means the Primer Pockets are still "snug" for 10 reloads. I'm certainly not saying you are pulling a clinton on us, but it is very difficult to believe for Loads with those velocities using Blue Dot. Past experience has my mind waving a HUGE Red Flag.

Perhaps your Range Pick-Ups have a much harder Case Head than the 223Rem cases I normally use.

quote:

4. Barrel length... 26 inch normally ....chronographed originally in a Ruger VT... Chronographed in a Rem VLS gave pretty much the same and also in a 24 inch ADL barrel...

That is good to know. The Hodgdon #26 used a 26" barrel during their Testing too.

For the Beginners, Barrels are all different and it would not be uncommon to see 200fps difference between two rifles made at the same time on the same production line. Some are simply faster than other barrels. And that might be the reason Seafire attained the velocities he mentioned. However, it is extremely misleading to quote those velocities and leave the "impression" that anyone should be able to duplicate them with Blue Dot.

For example, Seafire mentioned "3375 fps with 40 grain bullets" using Blue Dot. And everyone should know the 223Rem has a SAAMI MAX of 52K CUP. So we go to the Manual and see what the "Fastest" Powder Hodgdon used and we find:
49,600 CUP using 22.5gr of H4198 for 3601fps
44,400 CUP using 22.0gr of IMR4198 for 3361fps
44,000 CUP using 28.0gr of W-748 for 3579fps
45,000 CUP using 24.0gr of RL-7 for 3559fps

The reasons they are so far from 52k CUP varies between "lack of space" to add more Powder and (the real Problem) fluctuation in the actual "Peak Pressures".

Now as you look at the above SAFE MAX velocities using Powders which are much Slower than Blue Dot, Seafire has said his Blue Dot Loads exceed the velocity of the IMR4198. HUGE Red Flag
-----

So, from my perspective, the Loads Seafire has given out which attain "3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets" seem irresponsible and dangerous. He has not used CHE & PRE to verify the Pressure Indicators and the SAFETY they would provide. It seems fairly apparent that anyone who tries to duplicate those Loads is really taking a HUGE Risk that is totally unnecessary.

I still support Seafire's Reduced Blue Dot Loads when Pistol Primers are used as a Safety Valve. As long as you do not Double Charge a case, and you must ALWAYS work up from below, the Pistol Primers will Pierce before a serious Over Pressure condition exists. A Pierced Primer has problems enough with small pieces of Brass headed toward your eyes, but it is better than having the firearm Ka-Booooooom.

I simply find "3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets" using Blue Dot as unacceptable, irresponsible and overly dangerous, when much better Powders exist.

I've no desire to get in a heated verbal battle with anyone, simply stating what I see as a HUGE disaster in the making. If you believe Seafire has provided SAFE information, let your conscience be your guide. I would encourage anyone believing Seafire's Loads are SAFE to call 800 276-9337, which is the Alliant Powder Technical Support Line, and see what they think.

If you do make the FREE call to Alliant, please post what they have to say.
-----

Best of luck to all you folks.

Well Boys, you speak of Theoretical experience on the subject, not actual experience. utilzing the powder here.. I speak of experience..

I am in no way going to get into a pissing contest here.. especially since I respect both of you folks here...

each reloader must make up his own mind.. because utilimately it is him and only him, who is going to be shooting the rifle with his handloads in them...

All I can say is that I have not had the problems that have been expressed above after shooting thousands of rounds of Blue Dot and 223 loads in the field and also in other calibers as well...

I have also given access to tons of folks to the data I have come up with here.. and one would think that if this was such a disaster, I'd have tons of emails back complaining about it, singing horror stories themselves of disasters etc... however it hasn't happened...

When I am getting an average of 10 reloads on a case that was a fired case in the first place.. either from once fired brass, or range brass... you'd think that if this was such a problem, then I would not be getting this kind of service life out of so many military and civilian 223 cases... call it a Clinton or not... since I offer all of this data to share for free, I am not getting compensation from anyone for doing so.. a few folks have been nice enough to send donations to my son's scout account.. which I thank them for.. but unhappy folks would not be doing things like that...

No one should Blue Dot or any other powder that they have doubts about in any caliber or cartridge or firearm...

But I am not experiencing these horror stories whatsoever.. nor do I get emails or PMs from anyone else who has worked with the data.. I sure get a lot of emails complimenting the data and the results tho...

Folks are working up as instructed and finding out what is working best in their firearms...

I have spoken to Ben Ammonette at Alliant several times.. he even asked me to email him data on the 223, which I did and got a thank you not back from him...

Cast manuals give load data for powders a lot faster than Blue Dot in 223s, and smaller cartridges...

I have tested a lot of them and have found much more consistency with Blue Dot that any other powder in those load scenarios...so I pass it on to fellow shooters...

I invite you folks to search this forum to find a post where someone has flamed me personally for using some of the Blue Dot data I put forth for others to share and tell of any death doom or destruction from it...

Then search for the number of posts that have complimented both me and the results that others have experienced....

The only criticisms come from folks who have not actually had hands on experience with it...

And I don't consider the above posts from Hot Core or Mont Doug as flames or slander.. both of these gentlemen are genuinely concerned for the safety of our fellow forum members and shooters, and I respect that foremost...

But I have no financial gain in the promotion of this data or personal incentive finanically in sharing it..

its free to anyone who wants to use it, and free for anyone who wants to walk away from it...

But for anyone who doesn't know what they are doing.. they have no business handloading, regardless of powder, cartridge, bullet weight etc...

I will tell ya this much.. Alliant markets Unique as the most versatile powder on the planet.. and I have found greater consistency and accuracy with their very own Blue Dot..
and Blue Dot is slower than Unique...

folks also speak of the versatility of Red Dot, yet once again, I have found more consistency and versatility in Blue Dot..

Each case, cartridge and bullet weight have given parameters they operate in.. finding that is the objective and then see if that corresponds to your needs...

if you are more comfortable using data developed by folks in a lab, that is fine.... but when I see a load is safe in this book and then not safe or later exceeeded in another load manual from the same source, and find that some times data is popping primers in my rifle before I reach the "expert's lab data" in my rifle...well I rely on working up my own data, and use the others, strictly as a reference.. and we all have to make that decision for ourselves...

I sincerely hope Doug and Hot Core take this response in the aire it was intended.. which was neither meant to be hostile, or offensive..but containing the utmost respect...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
...I sincerely hope Doug and Hot Core take this response in the aire it was intended.. which was neither meant to be hostile, or offensive..but containing the utmost respect...

Hey Seafire, I also did not intend my post as hostile toward you. I do support the Seafire Reduced Blue Dot Loads using Pistol Primers as strongly as anyone on the Board. But I did want to word it strongly enough that people WILL NOT follow your lead with the Loads that produced "3375 fps with 40 grain bullets, ... and 2975 fps with 55 grain Bullets", because the Peak Pressure to attain these Velocities "with Blue Dot" has to be WAY TOO HIGH for a SAFE Load.

It also bothers me that there are "only" two of us in the thread that have posted Warnings about those Loads. That indicates to me the other posters are very inexperienced and can get into Pressure Problems without knowing they have done so.

Years ago a fellow(not Seafire) on "Shooters"(now defunct) got a M43 and began posting Loads that he claimed were 100Kpsi. When challenged on it, he basically said the same thing Seafire said, "each reloader must make up his own mind.. because utilimately it is him and only him, who is going to be shooting the rifle with his handloads in them...".

Here the problem is a well respected member of the Board(Seafire), who has had excellent results with Reduced Loads has simply made an improper assumption. Seafire has now posted Loads that get into an area of Pressure that apparently he simply does not understand. That is not a slam on Seafire, just a Warning that anyone duplicating the Loads in question is making a HUGE Mistake.
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Didn't anyone call Alliant???