I have my first custom rifle in .264 Win Mag. I've been working up loads and found a couple of accurate ones, but one thing I've noticed is that the powders don't come close to filling the case.

The slowest burning powder I've tried is IMR 7828 and still it won't fill the case. This is different from the other calibers I load for. Most of the other calibers have the case really close to being totally full. The most accurate loads have been with H4831sc and 129 gr SST's or 140 gr Gamekings.

Is this consistent with anybody's experience?

Is there a powder that will give high load density?

Will that powder burn completely? I would assume it would be very slow burning to fill the case.

I've also been a little disappointed with velocities I've achieved. 140 gr bullet a little over 3050 fps and with the 129 gr a bit over 3150 fps. These velocities are for the most accurate loads.

I read an article called "Reloading the .264 win Mag" in a Guns and Ammo archive where the guy ignored the data maxes for powder and I guess had no signs of pressure, and got amazing velocity. I tried some of his data and WOW DID I HAVE PRESSURE in my gun, so I just went by the data on the Hodgdon site............

I have loaded for two 264's and IMR7828 wouldn't make anything work for me. The two powders that did work were H4831SC and H1000, with H1000 being the better of the two IMO. I don't remember how well H1000 filled the case but with 160 grain Hornady RN bullets I am getting 2950 ft/sec and good accuracy from a 26" barrel. My Encore barrel won't shoot 140 grain bullets for nothing, as the chamber was cut with a long throat and unless I get close to the rifling it shoots shotgun patterns and the 140's just aren't long enough to do it. BTW, I really like the 160RN bullet and if your rifle has a 1/8" twist rate you should try them.

Thanks Luckyducker,

It's got a 1 in 9" twist rate.

Anybody with any knowledge of a powder that will fill the case?

The owner of Swift bullets told me his load is about 61 or 2 grains of RL-22.

When I load the powders I'm using, there's a whole lot of room below the shoulder that's just air. I've got some data and Winchester 780 Supreme. The velocity published is awesome for the 130 gr bullet and the pressure is sooo much lower than with the other mentioned powders. I haven't loaded any yet, but with the pressures notated on the data, I bet you could push beyond the max load.

780 Supreme on the burn chart is not that slow and it is a ball powder. I would think that the load density would even be less.

Friends-

I received some guidance from another board member whom I consider the resident expert on the .264 Win Mag here.

Stonecreek, please step in if I get out of bounds.

There is a military surplus powder called WC872. There are several places to purchase this powder. I purchased mine from Bartlett's. It is a ball powder and it has the characteristics of a powder that was fairly well known for i) having a slow burn rate and ii) working with with the .264 Win Mag. That powder was Hodgdon 870.

I have worked up loads using WC872 and I tried loads ranging from 77 grains to 79.5 grains of WC872. My load, for my rifle is 79.5 grains of WC872. Now in virgin brass that is a compressed load. Once I have a significant lot of once fired brass, I will try for a little more powder. Not to be redundant, my load "fills" the case and I have not encountered any pressure problems.

As with any reloading scenario, start low and work your way up. I strongly recommend the WC872 powder. If your goal is to fill up the case, WC872 will accomplish your objective.

Good luck!

Thanks,

What bullets are you shooting and what kind of velocity are you getting?

rcumuglia-

I am shooting 140 grain Nosler Partition. I am achieving sub .750 MOA groups at 100 yards.

I have not chronographed these loads. I am hoping for 3200-3300 fps but, I would be lying if I told you a number.

My current 264 loves 125gr Partitions and IMR 7828. Velocity is 3300fps and it just electrocutes deer!

Couple of years ago, John Barnsness(sp) wrote an article about today's powders in the 264. Here is the essential info:

He used a 26" bbl. pre-64 Model 70 Westerner for his testing. Using a 140 gr. Speer bullet, these are his max loads:

RL-25 64.0 gr. 3130 fps
MRP2 65.0 gr. 3114 fps
Magpro 65.0 gr. 3207 fps
Retumbo 65.0 gr. 3171 fps
Magnum 69.0 gr. 3240 fps

He felt that Magpro and Magnum gave the best combination of accuracy and velocity in his rifle

I have wanted a .264 Winchester Magnum for years. Finally, the Remington M700 Sendero was chambered in .264. Fabulous rifle!

I could not find a piece of .264 brass. I guess seasonal runs. So, I bought 7mm Remington Magnum brass and necked down.

I have been using RL19 with 100 grain pills.

You might see if Bartlett has any 5010 or 5020 left for sale. roger

Hey Buliwyf.....

Nosler custom brass is no problem to find at least from Cabela's

I also picked up plenty of Winchester brass first from Sportsman's. I haven't really had a problem getting brass.

bartsche..

What maker is the 5010 or the 5020 and is there data available?

Also 30 Caliber Mag Fan.........

Who makes WC872? I can't find it on any burn rate chart.

A buddy of mine in Georgia loads Vhitivouri N-560 and is in love with it for just about every caliber.....Any thoughts about this? He also says that the .264 is "over bored" and really there isn't any powder that will give really good load density. It holds too much powder and if you try to fill it, pressures become a problem.....

True?

30 Cal Mag Fan has found a powder that fills the case. Does it completely burn or does the unburnt powder just blow out the end of the barrel? Have you ever shot with a white sheet out in front of the bench?

rcmuglia,

Got your PM this morning. I see that Mark has chimed in and I'm glad to see that he is having good luck with the WC-872 I recommended to him. I didn't mention any powder weights for WC-872 in my PM back to you, but the charges Mark is using are very consistent with my loads.

I currently have two .264's. One, which I have owned since 1965 and shot profusely as a teenager, has a rather eroded throat (although its accuracy is still excellent). It can take about two grains more of very slow powder for the same apparent pressure as my newer .264 which has no throat erosion. The newer gun tops out right about where Mark's gun does in terms of WC-872.

You'll have to order WC-872 from one of the surplus powder dealer (Bartlet, Powder Valley, or others). If you try it, use some caution because surplus powders can vary somewhat in actual buring speed. For "over the counter" powders, Hodgdon's US 869 or AA 8700 are good prospects. I don't know of any .264 data for US 869. It would be purely a "start low and work up" situation in the .264. However, it sounds like you're experienced enough to tackle this somewhat dicey task.

One note: I don't know the chamber specs on your Remington, but the original chamber specs on the .264 called for absolutely NO throat, that is, the rifling started at the case mouth. Winchester loaded a two diameter bullet -- the base being .264" and the nose portion in front of the case mouth being just under land diameter at about .256". Guns with the original chambering specs require deep seating with conventional bullets and have a somewhat smaller effective chamber, therefore can take less powder. My guess is that the newer Remington has a more typical leade. You'll know simply by how far out you can seat the bullet without the riflings engraving it.

rcmuglia,

Well, the expert has weighed in, that being Stonecreek.

To answer your question though, WC872 is a military powder. This powder is used for 20 mm cannon shells. I am sure that any and all of the powder manufacturers make this for the military under contract. I have always been told to use Hodgdon 870 loading data as a reference point in working with WC872. Hence, I would conclude that the burning rates would be similar. I cannot remember if "Steve's Pages" has the burning rates for WC872 or not. But, you may want to try "Steve's Pages" as a reference point, assuming that web-site is still working or not.

Good luck!!

Ahhh... yet another example of someone discovering that the reality of the 264win doesn't equal the hype of the 264Win.

It's a lesson we all must learn.

Someone recently told me that the 7mmRem was undesireable because it was like a belly button... everyone had one... belly buttins serve an important function
and without one you've never been born.

what the same guy said about the 30-06 doesn't bear repeating, but if someone here said the same things I
wouldn't kill them before burying them alive in a manure pile! but only if I didn't get trampled by the mob of others trying to do worse things to them.


AD

Not sure if I'm philosophical enough to understand your reply, but thanks Allan.

It's funny, Stonecreek and 30 Cal, last night I logged on to the Hodgdon site and sent a contact mail about the problem. I asked them if they had any data for the cartridge using ...... you guessed it ..... H 870 since it was the slowest burning on the chart.

I checked the new chart and some Vhitovouri powders are even slower....... What do you think?

Also, no one as answered my question about if the very slow powders get a complete burn down the barrel.

I've been told it can be tested by shooting over a white sheet and inspecting it to see if any unburnt grains exist.
????

If you guys know, please reply.....

Thanks

I use a chronograph for all my load development. When I find sustainable single digit standard deviation in velocity I feel I am getting repeatability.

What I have found on some of the REAL slow powders (I was playing with a 7STW) when I got real slow a full case just couldn't give me the highest velocity.

Running Loadtech and a 140 it lists some real slow powders like 5070, 870, 5020, 50BMG all giving around 100% case capacity. However the highest velocities come from powders like MRP, RL22, 7828, RL25. Using 88-98% capacity.

I have found that 7828 gives the highest velocity and accuracy with 140 grain Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames, however, for 125 and 100 grain Nosler Partitions I find that IMR-4350 yields the best accuracy, with minimal decrease in velocity versus 7828 or 4831.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
bartsche..

What maker is the 5010 or the 5020 and is there data available?

They are surplus powders. The last that I bought was $28.00 for 8# The 5010 seems to burn just a little faster than the 5020. There is some data on it That I can share.I know Bartlett carried it for a long time and still might. roger

Thanks bartsche,

I may PM you to get the data, but I think I'm going to try some of the current powders on the market that are very slow.

5010 has kernals the size of young logs. It is impossible to meter and is even kinda difficult to get it to funnel into a .264 mouth. It's the right burn rate, but I would recommend trying something else.

There are two Vhitavori powders that are ".50 BMG-appropriate". While they are listed on the company's powder chart, I've never seen either of them for sale. If you can find them, they're good candidates. In looking at the surplus dealers websites, I don't find anyone with WC872 currently available. WC-860 is similar, but the lot of it I have worked with didn't do as well as the WC-872. Pat's reloading is listing another powder, WC-868, in this burning range, but I have no idea how useful it might be.

Again, Hodgdon's US 869 and AA 8700 are your best bets for over-the-counter powders.

I've worked with loading .264's since 1965 in five different rifles, and have owned a chronograph since 1970. I can assure you that the set of powders regarded as "slow", ie. 4831, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, RL-22 & 25, etc. used with 140 grain bullets, can only achieve the velocities you are looking for at the expense of VERY high pressures. If you want to "go fast", you've got to "start slow".

I'm working pretty hard on this Stonecreek, and am taking in everything you say.

On the burn chart H870 and even RL-25 is slower than AA-8700. I checked with Steve's reloading pages and with the 140 gr bullet he thinks that H870 would be his choice. There is some data there for it and other slow powders.

What do you think of Steve's pages and do you think that any of the powders slower than AA-8700 would be good candidates?

What about the H 50 BMG? It would definitely fit your "50 BMG" type criteria.

rcamuglia

check your email...sent the data that you requested...

10-4

Thanks a bunch

Update:

Hodgdon says there is no H870 available anymore.
They also say US 869 is available and is slower burning than H 50 BMG.

I think I'll first try Bursness's loads and if that isn't satisfactory, try US 869......

Keep your eyes open at gun showsetc for a can [or or3 or4] of Hodgons H-870. You can still find it. I got 2 lbs at the Roseburg shot last week for 9.00 [2] Then load 85.5 grs with a Sierra 140 Gameking and you`re good to go at about 3155 out of a 23" bbl. At least that is what I get. You can use the same load for the Hornady 129s 140s and the 160 RN.
Aloha, Mark

Thanks Bohica

I think that at a gunshow is the only place you'll find it.

I talked to the tech at Hodgdon and he said it is no longer produced or available.

I've been loading 5010 in my .264 a caseful gives the velocities most powders produce with a starting load. I haven't worked up any good compressed charges yet so it's showing promise. The velocities are very consistent too.

Hey jerkface,

What kind of velocity are you talking about?

It's IMR powder, right? Is it available over the counter or is it a surplus powder?

I was getting around 2900 fps with a 140 grain bullet. It's a surplus IMR powder.

Jerkface.....

Do you have a 24" barrel? That velocity sounds about right for that length. I have a 26" barrel and am getting 3050 with H-4831SC.

If you are only getting 2900 with the slower stuff that sucks. I haven't tried any real slow stuff yet and was hoping to get more than with the H-4831. I hope my experience is better........

Have you tried the faster stuff? If so, what kind of velocity?

like your handle, by the way..................

It's a Ruger 77MKII I'm pretty sure they have a 24 inch barrel. I can still get a few more grains of powder in there though. This was with a very slightly compressed charge. I'll work it up a little more and see how it does. I really doubt that I can fit too much 5010 in the case.

No I haven't tried a faster powder. Though I do plan on getting some Retumbo or something similar to work up a hunting load.

I have 3 264's in various configurations.

RE-25 is the powder that gives best accuracy for me up to 130 grains.

I'm planning to try Viht N570 with 140's.....it's burn rate is slightly slower than Retumbo and it is a high energy double based powder.....I think it will be REAL good in this round.

I was of the understanding that single base powders are best for extremely overbore cartridges. Supposedly they don't cause so much throat erosion

Hey Blair338/378

Who makes the RE-25?

Do you mean RL-25?

I also think you mean to try N-170, not N-570. On the burn rate chart N-170 is slower than Retumbo. N-570 I don't see on the chart.

R,

Sorry mate, Alliant Reloader 25.

And your burn chart is out of date.........N570 is a new powder......it's a high energy version of N170. Burn rate is about the same as AA8700. Buy the VihtaVuori Manual #4......

N570 gave me 3150fps with a 200 grainer out of a 300RUM. And with groups of .4 with the 200 Lapua Naturalis.

If you can get it, you could also try 24N41.

I'd try US869 as well, if it was available in Oz.

Double based powders will give you the best velocities..don't worry about throat erosion...a 264 is like a sports car......performance

Have fun, it's a great round!!!!!

Thanks Blair,

I bought some US869 and am going to try it.

Have you used the N 570 or the US869 in your .264 and if so, what velocities did you get with the 140 gr bullet?

I'm on the Vihta Vuori website and on their burn rate chart there is no N-570:

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.co...rning-Rate-Chart.pdf

I haven't as of yet. That burn rate chart is not the one in their #4 manual....the schmucks haven't updated their website.........

US 869 is unavailable here.

Will be trying N570 in the 264 with 140's in about 2 weeks...soon as I work up a load I'll PM you mate.