Do any of you 'small pill' fans have opinions on what the best .17 round is. There seems to be quite a few.

.17 Rem
.17 Mach IV
.17 Ackley Hornet
.17 Hornet
.17 HMR
.17 Squirrel

I'd be very interested in your views especially on cost and efficiency as I may be giving the .17 a serious look soon.
Many thanks
Brit

I only have a 17 rem and am very happy with it, shoots flat and very accurately. My 17 is a Dave Van Horn 24 inch bull barrel for my contender carbine.

regards,
graycg

British,

I have a .17HMR, a .17 Mach IV, and a .17 Rem.

On this side of the pond, the .17HMR offers the lowest initial cost - a run-of-the-mill rifle costs $150-250; Coopers, Kimbers, and Anschutz cost between $700-$1100.

Ammunition for the .17HMR costs about $7 for 50 rounds; .17 Mach IV ammunition (by Cooper) costs $42/50rds; .17 Remington ammunition (by Remington) costs $22/20rds.

If you handload, brass for the .17 Mach IV must be formed from .221 Fireball brass (neck down and fireform). Brass for the .17 Remington is available from Remington. The dies for a .17 Mach IV cost more than those for a .17 Rem.

According to some the .17 Mach IV is more 'efficient', providing about 90% of the .17 Remington's velocity while using 85% of the powder. I don't think the difference is significant enough to be a factor.

In terms of noise, the .17 HMR is quietest, the .17 Remington the loudest. I know you chaps can use sound moderators, so that may not be as big a factor for you.

Also, the .17HMR is a rimfire, which may make it easier for you to obtain 'permission' to purchase one.

George

GeorgeS pretty well summed it up. If doing a first wildcats your thing I'd suggest the Mach IV, easy to form and everything is readily available. A .17 Ackley is on my real soon list but I'm thinkin that the thinner Hornet brass might be a bit less forgiving to form especially for a first wildcat.
My speculation is the Mach IV and .17 Ackley might be a bit more accurate in general, than the .17 Remington, certainly more effecient. I have the same selection of .17's GeorgeS does, and my Mach IV is a little more user friendly than my .17 Remington (M-IV's a cooper the .17 Rem's a CZ might be a part of that). Whatever you get I hope you like it, (bet ya do)but be forewarned sub-calibers have been proven to be addicting in recent tests preformed by a multitude of shooters world wide.

Off topic, GeorgeS are you the one I got into the hot discussion with about the virtues of the Tactical .20 as a 500 yard chuck smucker last fall on another site? If you are I just wanted to say your assertion was correct. After shooting my first chucks with it since it's completion last fall my feelings are it's certainly accurate enough, (Yesterday I shot a p-dog at a Lica messured 523 yards, no BS, honest!) but chucks are tough and I don't want to poke holes in things and watch em go down the hole. Might be a little light on delivered energy at 500. I did whack one last week at 438 and killed him deader'n virginity!, so I guess I'm seeing the Tact.20 best suited to chuck sized critters out to about 400ish. That was you wasn't it? If not sorry for the ramble.

Hi Doug,

Yes, that was me on Saubier.com forums.

I like small-bore varminters, too, but for 400-500yd. shooting of 'chucks, I'll stick with my .243AI or .25-06. They just deliver so much more 'ooomph' at long range than any of the .17/.19/.20/.22 centerfires.

George

I hear ya George, I've got a 112BVSS Savage in .25-06. Rifle weighs 13 pounds with a 6X20 Leupold, has a Canjar single set trigger and shoots solidly sub-half inch. When the wind comes up or the critters get spooky it joins the fray. My farthest chuck todate with it is 659 yards. At 500 yards that 100 grain bullet picks em up and flattens em out. I agree with you George just wanted to let you know after shooting the rifle at a few of em. In spite of that it's still my favorite varmint rifle "Flavor of the Week", I'm such a fickle bastige! It is a laser on the rat species. Next I'm thinking .20BR with a 9 twist for the 50 grainers, a 50 at 4,000 oughta reach out there. Like I said, I'm such a fickle bastige!

Without a doubt, its the 17 Ackley Hornet. This cartridge still lives in the effective range of faster 17s. 17s make for fun cartridges but they are limited. Inexpensive and not to complex. If someone was interested in putting the brakes on a 17 the ack hornet is easy to do. JMO

British: I own 5 Varminters (4 Varmint Rifles and 1 Varmint pistol) in 17 caliber cartridges. I absolutely love them all!
But to answer your question directly I think the 17 MachIV cartridge leads my pack of 17's!
It is an efficient and extremely accurate round! My 17 MachIV Varmint Rifle has shot groups as small as .313" (5 shots at 100 yards) and this size group is just a tad better than the norm. It is very consistent and these groups are shot with Varmint bullets and a Varmint friendly scope! Lots of velocity out of this cartridge with very small powder charges! Pleasingly flat trajectory with the 17 MachIV is also easily obtained.
The 17 Remington (at least in my 2 Varmint Rifles) is also very accurate and is quite flat shooting. I live in wind country and the 17's in my mind are very manageable in the wind. The 17 caliber bullets fly so fast that the wind does not have much time to work on and affect them.
I have owned my custom 17 MachIV Varminter the longest and the brass seems to last forever. Its small powder charge and cheap brass make for cost efficiency also.
Cost wise the custom Riflesmithing to obtain a 17 MachIV may enter into your considerations. Not many choices on the factory offered market here. Some but not many!
Good luck with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey VarmintGuy, have you tried the 30 grain Berger in your .17 Remingtons yet? Just started playing with it in mine using reformed IMI .223 brass and both WW760 and VV N135, haven't chrono'd yet but it sure looks like a winner. Ought to be just the ticket for .17's in that wind we share here in "Big Sky Wind Country".

I have a Remington 700BDL in .17 Rem. and have mixed feelings about it. It's a fun gun to shoot, and it's great being able to see your target hit by your bullet. Will it shoot? Definitely but only when it damn well pleases, and that's the rub. It's common to get a .450" group (5at100yds), preceded or followed by a 1.2" group which looks hugh with those small diameter bullets. I find the wind can be rough on it, even at 4000fps. I've tried many different bullet and powder combinations, clean the barrel
thoroughly, and it seems to make no difference. Copper fouling is pretty bad, but nothing that can be cleaned out.
Yes, it's a fun caliber, but it certainly has taught me humility. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

British:

I've had several 17 Rems and one Mach4. The 17 Remingtons were Remingtons and one Sako and the Mach 4 was on a Hart action with a Shilen barrel. At the moment the only 17 I have is a Sako in 17 Rem. Its my walking around gun. Outside of using a bit less powder I never thought there was a whole lot of practical difference between these 2 cases. Since I started using moly on my 17 caliber bullets and H414 powder my Sako shoots around .4. For me that was simpler than fooling with the Mach 4. That was a fun project, though. If I try another 17 wildcat it will be a 17 Ackley Hornet. I always thought that might be about the right size case for the 17 bore size.

knobmtn

Hey Cal, I've read your posts a number of times as to the inconsistancies with your Remington, I know how frusterating that must be. As that does not seem to be the norm with the large majority I keep wondering what a guys going to have to do to get to the root of the problem and get that rifle shooting the way it ought to.

First I was wondering how it was broken in? As bad as you say it fouls it must have a rough bore. Was it broken in properly? As much as I'm sure this'll start a storm I'd suggest taking it all the way down to bare metal as time consuming as that is and then doing a "CAREFUL!" firelap job. I'd be glad to treat the bullets for you and walk you through it if you've never done it, I've had great success tightening groups and easing bore cleaning woes using it on certain factory barreled rifles. It's time consuming but it works when used judiciously.

Second the great groups to poop groups at will issue sounds mechanical: Bedding, crown, scope mounts or bases, the scope itself, stock to action tension (inch lbs of torque) have you tried to find a sweet spot by tightening and loosening the action screws?

Third loading issues:case concentricity (do you ever roll your brass on a concentricity guage?), neck tension, consistency of bullets (have you tried Berger 25's?), brass from the same lot?, how many times has it been fired?

Last, do you shoot with wind flags? It oughta take gale force wind to turn a half inch into an inch and a half at a 100 but flags sure help.

Finally, I sure hope you don't feel I'm giving you the dummy lecture, we all shoot a lot and (I've read enough of your posts to know your a knowledgable shooter) I know for me I sometimes get so close to the issue I overlook something and a fresh view from the side helps. It's just from my experience the .17 are no more mystical than any other caliber, when ones jumping from a half to an inch and a half whenever it feels like it there has to be a reason. Figuring those anomalys out is what makes shooting and reloading fun for me. The positive side is if it's shootin half inch groups on occasion it'll do it, you just need to chase the boogie men out of it.

Montdoug: I have not tried the 30 gr. bullets as yet in any of my 3 centerfire 17 caliber Varminters but I have sure been tempted. And just for the reason you mentioned. Maybe a touch less windage worry and calculation. I have seen the 30 gr. Berger 17's at 3 places. Russ Haydons Shooters Supply out in Washington state and the gunshows he does also at Ronan Sports in Ronan Montana and I also saw them at Brass & Bullets in Kalispell, Montana. The closest of those outlets is 250 miles each way for me. Do you have access to them up your way? I guess I could always order some through the mail?
Nope, not as yet on the 30 grainers, mainly because the 25's were so accurate and easy to obtain and they are so deadly on everything from Ground Squirrels to Rock Chucks to Coyotes!

Also those were great tips you gave to Cal Sibley on trying to trouble shoot his inconsistent Remington and perk it up! I hope Cal can get it humming here before he gives up on it!
I, on the other hand, am just overwhelmed with the lethality of these tiny projectiles! And for me their consistent accuracy. Like Cal said though, one of the first groups I shot years ago with the my 17 MachIV looked really bad from the bench through the spotting scope! But when I got out to the target with my steel rule that measures in .01" increments I found that it was a very respectable group just under .600"! Yeah those tiny holes are a new experience to look at and judge through a spotting scope.

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hello Montdoug,

Either you have a great memory or I complain more often than I thought. I can't really tell about the break in. I bought the gun slightly used. I clean it well using proper techniques and a bore guide. Most posts I read say the same thing, that the problem is not the group size but the consistency. I shoot from a bench and read wind fairly well so I'm not getting caught in a switch. I'm well aware of the effects of that. My major problem is living 130 miles from my shooting range. I don't get the .17 Rem. out nearly as often as I should. I'm usually accurizing 2 or 3 rifles at a time and somehow I end up ignoring the little beggar more that I should. I just laid in 200 Berger 25gr. bullets and will give them a try next week, although I really don't think the difficulty is with my reloading. I use IMR4320 and Varget mainly and load to around 3900fps. It will go faster of course. The barrel is floated, but I've yet to have the action glass bedded. That may help.
I'll play with it for another year or so before tossing in the towel. I've never had a caliber I couldn't get to shoot well and don't want this one to become the first. Thanks for your concern Montdoug, and best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal,

The problem that I've had with 17's was that one day they would be grouping ok,,,say .6 or whatever. They next time I shot the rifle I would get 3 shots out of 5 that were in .6 but there would be 2 fliers that took the group out to 1" or larger. I always shoot over windflags. Various rifles that I've had may have varied there group size one from another but the pattern of fliers on some days was always present sooner or later. I always shot 4320 powder. I may have tried one or two others but I don't recall what they were. I did notice that on all the rifles the primers occaisonly would indicate that I was getting some kind of pressure spikes. Of course, everyone was always telling me that the 17's copper fouled so badly. All of this led me to try something that I don;'t usually do. I made 2 changes at once. I went to a ball powder for more consistent metering and I tried moly coated bullets. My Sako came to life. Basically, I eliminated the fliers. With H414 and moly bullets the rifle is consistent under a half inch. The thing I don't like is that from making both changes at once I'm not sure which did the most good. If you happen to try either of these please post the results. I'd be interested in knowing if they help in other 17 Rems. I only have the one Sako at the present.

knobmtn

Hello knobmtn,

Thanks, I'll give it a try. I can get H414 locally, but will have to order the moly bullets. Do you find the moly bullets cut down on the fouling? Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal,

I have access to a good bore scope. The moly virtually eliminated copper fouling. I think any ball powder would give the consistent metering. I picked H414 because I had it. 760 might do it in another rifle. I feel it was the consistent metering not necessarily 414.

knobmtn

Cal & Knobmtn
When I switched to H-414 & Moly, for Berger & Hornady 25 grs.
The Where did that come from?, Went AWAY!!
This is my second 17 Rem, the newest is an SSK barrel for my old T/C. I broke it in the old fashioned way. Shoot, clean, shoot, clean etc. The standard old 4320. 4064 loads. Never a Happy rifle. I've used H-414 since the '70,s in 22-250's to light bullets in 30-06's, so I went back to that. Flyer's became my fault. Moly barrel & Bullets fixed the rest for me. I would see groups falling open @ 15 - 17 shots 5 years ago. With Moly I don't see degradation until I run out of concentration or get to 70 or so rounds on target. Your comment about your Sako reminded me that I seldom see H-414 & 17.s mentioned together. My young nephew has shot my 17 Rem in the .2-.3's I can usually manage, .3>.4 when eveything clicks. The old flyer's aren't. hMM
Shoot Safe
Keep Shootin'

H414 and WW760 being basically the same, there is an interesting episode on saubier.com forum on a 17 Rem CZ and WW760. Temperature sensitivity and resulting pressure changes in the small bores has caused some major grief!
Montdoug escaped w/o significant injury, but sure heightened some awareness!

I have used H414 in my .17/222mag imp for about 5 years, and it gave equal highest velocity with both the 25 grain Hornady HP (4,503 fps) and 30 grain Hammett HPBT (4,175 fps). Importantly, I was also able to obtain sub 0.5 moa with this powder, but you definitely have to watch your pressures as the temperature rises above 25C, as my boltface can testify.

However, I don't believe that there is anything magical in H414, but just another instance where the burning rate is almost ideal for the case capacity, when used with the 25 and 30 grain bullets.

Also have found that WIN 760, (which some many believe is the same as H414) seems even more temperature insensitive, and is very spikey around maximum pressure. My lots of WIN 760 are definitely faster than H414, as maximum pressure is reached about 1.0 grains earlier with both the 25 and 30 grain bullets, and velocity is also about 75 - 100 fps less.

I am currently testing Vihtavouri N550 with the 30 grain bullet, and this powder seems to have a burning rate almost identical to H414, and achieves similar velocities at maximum pressure. However, the one disconcerting aspect I have noticed in preliminary testing, is that accuracy is ordinary (0.8 - 1.5 moa) until maximum pressure is reached when bingo you get suddenly get sub 0.5 moa.

Also a note of caution if you had considered trying the Berger 30 grain HP. I discovered (like many others) that it gave excellent accuracy at about 3,500 - 3,600 fps, but at 3,700 I noticed comet tails (black smudges) appearing on the bullet holes, and between 3,900 and 4,150 fps the bullets would not reach the 100 yard target. I have switched to the Hammett 30 grain HPBT, and those problems disappeared.(Kindler and Genco 30 grainers should also work)
Good luck and hope the above helps. Brian.

WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING

DO NOT BUY A 17 ANYTHING, they breed and become addicting


If it was not such a big deal to form the brass I say 17 Javalina. Hotter than a Mach 4 but not as over bore as a 17 REM. My vote is gonna have to be for the easy forming, cheap to load and do almost everything inside 200 yards Ackley Hornet.

Wish list 17 Ack Hornet (Oh that one is being built),20 VARTARG Turbo (Collecting parts, almost there) , and a 14 squirrel (Collecting parts).