Hi-

Been looking around for a 223 with suitable iron sights on it. I'd love to have the AR15A2 sights on a bolt rifle. Is this possible? Does anyone else even use irons with small bore rifles??

I have seriously considered an AR type rifle, but the way autos toss brass around is pretty discouraging. I hate having to root around on the ground to find my brass to reload (I save all my brass, even that used in the field). I do like all the various sighting options for these rifles though. I have never seen anything but mediocre iron sights on other rifles, if any at all. Are you required to use a scope on bolt action 223s? The highpower shooters can do a lot with iron sights...

What else have you all tried on your rifles?

maxman

If you want iron sights, look to Savage and Ruger.

Go ahead and get the AR. I reload for mine(have too, 3-4000 rounds a year) it really isn't that bad on tossing brass. You have 2 options. 1 buy a 20 dollar brass deflector that dumps them in a nice neat pile right next to you. Or 2. Potty train the rifle. Strip the bolt, drive out the ejector spring retaining pin, cut off ejector spring to where face of ejector sits just above or at the face of the bolt umcompressed(use a dremel cutoff wheel), reassemble. this will pile brass in a neat little stack 1 foot forward and right of you in prone position. ( WAnted to add that you can buy once fired lake city brass that has been cleaned resized and had the primer pocket reamed for about 60 bucks/thousand, so don't worry about lossing a few.) try rvow.com

[ 10-02-2003, 06:29: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

Thanks guys. That does help. I think I will go with the AR. I'm very familiar with them, and I really like the sights. Kevin- good info on the options. I didn't want to hang one of those brass catcher bags to the rifle. They really mess me up. I'll have to look into that modification. maxman

Sir: there is no reason at all not to put match quality open sights on a .223 bolt gun. check with some of the ar gunsmiths as many also smith bolt guns. Bravo to you. ned

See, now I'm having second thoughts on the AR. I just revisited the blue dot topic on reduced 223 loads here. If I want to try these easy and economical loads, an automatic is not the way to go. I would guess that there will be cycling problems at these reduced velocities. Of course, this might be worked around with an adjustable gas block, but bolt guns are so much easier to load for than autos.

I've got an auto in .308 that has done a lot to discourage me from going that route again. They are fun, but experimentation is limited!

Are there suggestions on sight brands that are match quality (maybe even similar to the AR type)? What kind of options are out there? Is it going to be just a new rear peep, or are there good sight _systems_ available? Any recommendations would be great. I shoot very well with good iron sights. Plus, they are lighter, simpler, and stronger than scopes....I tend to be hard on equipment...lol thanks, maxman

Sir: do searches on the jouster and ar-15 forums for iron sights, check ok weber, rpa sights, compass lake, ect. you can have exactly the same sights installed. you are right. the flight envelope for auto's is different and perhaps not as big as the bolt gun. regards ol' 513-t ned

If you go with match sights be ready to spend around 450 dollars. That is another reason to buy a match grade AR. Look up White Oak Precision, gunsmith John Holliger, he does a modification of the standard AR sight that includes interchangeable apertures and 2 pins that go through the rear sight doen into the receiver, it tracks like a 400 dollar Warner rear sight. The whole upper assembly with a shilen SS 1/8 twist barrel,float tube and the sight mod is only $875. I've got 2 and everyone on the state service rifle team is shooting them too. A big added plus is now you can shoot service rifle matches. Add a jewel trigger to the lower and you have a gun that can and has one the most prestigious matches at the nationals. Don't worry about screwing around with Blue Dot, buy powder in bulk for savings, I buy 30 lbs of RE15 at a time. Most of the 308 autos will indeed discourage you from reloading, not so with the AR.
(you're also going to have better resale on the AR if you change your mind)

[ 10-02-2003, 23:57: Message edited by: KevinNY ]

Ouch. Those match sights are expensive. I was hoping that some version of them could be had for about the same price as a set of AR sights. Plus, they don't look as strong. At least the AR sights have protective ears around the pieces. This will be a field/hunting rifle. When I win the big lotto, I will be building a long range rig like one of these - but not today. It would appear that the AR is again leading the pack...

Kevin - how sensitive is the AR to various loads, bullets, etc? I know there are accuracy issues depending on the bbl twist, but I'm thinking more about reliable cycling, feeding, extraction, etc. Is there room to mess with loads a bit? What really intrigued me about blue dot is the ability to fire many (relatively) low-temp rounds. This would really add up at the end of the day in barrel life and continuous shooting. maxman

I should add that I have a nice old .222 that I can use for some of this messing around. That one is scoped, and I don't want to mess with it and iron sights. So, I really don't NEED another 22 centerfire, but the 223 has always kinda caught my interest, and I'd like to see what it does with iron sights. thanks again, maxman

maxman

If you go with the service rifle sights instead of the match rigs, you can swap out the aperture in 10 minutes, replacing it with a $15 hooded peep from Rock River in whatever size fits you best. I did it with my dedicated upper so now the sight picture's identical to what I see when shooting my RR CMP gun. The hooded peep is a big improvement over what you usually get with service sights.

If you want to spend slightly more, Bob Jones has an aperture with all kinds of adjustable inserts, popular with us "salty" geezers who can't see the front sight so well anymore

HTH

Redial

[ 10-03-2003, 04:32: Message edited by: redial ]

Remington made their model 78 in 223 with iron sights.

So does the Lux version and carbine version of the CZ 527 in .223.

Maxman,
There certainly is not the loading flexibility of a bolt gun with the AR. That said, I don't see it as any handicap. As a for instance, I now only shoot RE15. You could go as low and slow as maybe 23 grains for around 2550fps or my load of 24.7 for around 2900 fps or a bit more powder and more velocity if you wanted. I use 24.0 gr with the sierra 80 which is mild but very accuarte, a bit over 2700fps, 24.5 is a combo I may mess with next year. A great bullet is the 60 gr Sierra flat base varminter, I used to use it for 100 yard reduced course shooting H335, W748 or one of its surplus equivalents, or AA2230 or 2460 are all good powders in the AR with the lighter bullets. You will have no function problems with any of them, I prefer the extruded powders for the heavier bullets. Of course there is surplus 55's and 62's available for plinking but they will give your accuracy fits if you try to get serious with them. AS for durability you definately want the a2 battle sights, even match modified they are way tougher than match sights or scopes.
Dont worry about barrel heat too much. A typical days practice for me is 40 to 80 rounds, 10 or 20 slow fire offhand, then 3 to 5 strings of rapid fire. standing to sitting or prone in 60 or 70 seconds with a mag change. after 5000 rounds of this it still shoots little knots.

[ 10-03-2003, 17:26: Message edited by: KevinNY ]