Hello,
1 year ago I bought my dream rifle for roedeer hunting : A Sako L461 Vixen in 222Rem with Sako mounts and Bushnell scope in perfect condition. Since then I worked a lot with it. The precision is very poor. It has been fittet with a new Leupold scope and mounts, bedded and had a new crowning. The barrel has been polished internally by a gunsmith. The best 3-shot series is appr. 7cm (3"). This is with handloaded 50grain ballistic tip. I have tried factory ammo in 50gr, 55gr and 62gr both FMJ and SP.
The barrel has 12 land/grooves and looks in perfect condition.

What can I do ?
Can you help me get the precision back ?

Ryan in Denmark

Ryan,
Any Sako's that i've been associated with were extremely accurate, especially in .222.
You mention that it's been bedded, by whom? While there are several things that could be causing the problem, i'd take another look at the bedding and i've always had excellent results by free floating the barrel, as in no wood/metal contact. Some here will disagree but it works for me and probably you as well. Good luck.

Stepchild

Let me first say I am no gunsmith.
I have the exact gun except in 222 remington
The gun is stock and has only been fired less than 4oo rds
I noticed the accuracy was less than desirable and all I did was loosen the torque to the mounting screws more for the rear, accuracy improved considerably. I am certain with a proper action bedding the accuracy would improve but I am not willing to alter it

You mentioned the barrel was recrowned??? why and was it done properly since that is such a critical element to accuracy

Ryan,
One other thing. There are people who call themselves Gunsmiths and then there are those who really are. Get a 2nd opinion if you can.

Stepchild

i have a couple of the old sako 222's and both are extremely accurate. I believe the first thing i'd do is the bed the receiver and make sure the barrel is floating. I have seen sakos that the wood under the trigger was holding the action up a bit and had to be relieved so the gun could sit down.

I own two L-461s and both are extremely accurate but the bedding is critical.....proper glass bedding the action and floating the barrel is what works for me.

I agree that you didn't get a good bedding job. Something is haywire in there is my bet.

Ryan, since you are in Europe, I'd suggest you try to get hold of a box (50) of RWS Jagdmatch ammo. They normally shoot very well in .222s. If these don't shoot reasonably well (maybe around 1" for 5 shots @ 100m), then there is probably something wrong with either the rifle or the sight arrangement (scope).

As I understand you, you have already tried out two different scopes (Bushnell & Leupold), and did not achieve the results you were after with either. Correct??

Does your rifle have a heavy or a standard barrel?? Is there any chance of looking inside the barrel with a borescope - in particular at the throat area?? Have you measured how far out you have to seat bullets to touch the lands?? I'm trying to gauge the state of your barrel's throat here... The crown is new, and then the next area to expect problems from in the barrel would be the throat.

When you shoot the rifle on the range, describe your shooting arrangement - i.e. are you using sandbags (or mechanical rests) both in the front
and the rear of the rifle?? How heavy is your trigger pull - and does that match the pull on your other rifles??? I know conditions in DK are often very windy. Do you get the chance to shoot the rifle in calm conditions (the .222 is very susceptible to wind)???

The early Sako barrels often came with as many lands and grroves as you have described. That surprised me as well, when I bought my L461 in .222 Rem (mine has a heavy barrel). Normally, the factory rifles are very accurate - say .5 - 1" for 5 shots @ 100 m. Btw, your Sako most likely has a 1:14 barrel, so attempting to shoot it with bullets as heavy as 62 grs is not likely to bring you much joy. Depending on whether you can reach the lands with short bullets, you should probably look at bullets between 40 and 50 grs (possibly up to 55). Forget FMJ factory ammo, that is normally not very accurate.

Let's assume for a moment your reloads might be at fault?? Describe to us the cases, powder, dies, and primers you use. Other than the 50 grs BT, we don't know much about your reloading set up.... Are you deliberately seating bullets at a specific distance off the lands - and if yes, what might this distance be??? I'm trying to get a feel for your reloading experience here, and the likelihood that something in your reloading procedure might be the gremlin... When you seat a batch of bullets, do they all seat with (about) the same force??

It is never easy to provide a long range diagnostic for an accuracy problem. But perhaps we can collectively suggest one or two things for you to try out over the next period of time. With luck things will improve. It would be a pity if the Sako did not live up to its normal reputation of excellent accuracy.

- mike

quote:

It is never easy to provide a long range diagnostic for an accuracy problem.

Hell.....I thought Switzerland and Denmark was next door neighbors.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Hell.....I thought Switzerland and Denmark was next door neighbors.

Close, but no cigar... We are about 650-700 miles apart. But Sweden is right next door...

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Hell.....I thought Switzerland and Denmark was next door neighbors.

Close, but no cigar... We are about 650-700 miles apart. But Sweden is right next door...

- mike

PM sent.....a little history about Switzerland and Denmark

First of all, Thanks for your interest in my problems.

I'll give you the long story in short, but with more details.

After the purchase i gave the rifle to a wellknown gunsmith for a safety service. It was a second hand gun.
He cleaned it, removed a bit of the stock under the barrel, bedded the action, adjusted the trigger. After he checked the scope, not to be shot resistent.
I got new scope and mounts. No change in precision.
All my test shooting is done like this : Sitting at a cement table, rifle supported by steel tripod in front and sandbag at the rear. Trigger weight is minimum, appr. 800-900grams.
After asking for help on a danish forum, some pointed out, that the Sako straight crowning could be a problem.
Therefor another guy got the task of making a new and testing precision. He has good experience with remaking precision rifles. He reloaded some test rounds, but did not get the result i expected. I'm not yet a reloader so I use factory ammo.
I picked up the rifle 3 days ago, and as i found a lot of experienced shooters in here, it was natural to ask.
Both the above mentioned guy's said the barrel was in perfect condition. There was no signs og wear.
The barrel is a thin hunting with sights.
I just took the rifle apart. There is some brown plastic under the recoil lug, but not at the rear of the action. Is that a bad bedding job ??


I am in doubt : should i give it to number 3 gunsmith, sell it or mount new barrel ??

I think i got around answering all your questions.

@Vapodog. Distance to Switzerland is 1200km. Same distance you have to Washington DC (appr)

Ryan

quote:

I just took the rifle apart. There is some brown plastic under the recoil lug, but not at the rear of the action. Is that a bad bedding job ??


I am in doubt : should i give it to number 3 gunsmith, sell it or mount new barrel ??

I think i got around answering all your questions.

@Vapodog. Distance to Switzerland is 1200km. Same distance you have to Washington DC (appr) Wink

1. is that bad bedding?....IMO YES...it's bad bedding...but I've seen worse.

2. Mounting a new barrel is premature.....

3. The distance to Switzerland.....I was just kidding. I'll copy you on the PM I sent to MHO

Ryan,
You say there is some brown plastic UNDER the recoil lug. Concerning the recoil lug, you only want contact at the rear of the lug, none on the bottom, front or either side. If it's touching in any of those places it wont shoot properly.
You can put a dab of bedding material under the tang as well(use sparingly and use masking tape to protect the stock finish)) and use a release agent(automotive wax works) on ALL metal parts. One other thing, I relieve any wood that contacts the action other than the above mentioned areas and don't forget to seal any open wood with stock finish. Don't over tighten the screws, snug is all it takes. I hope this helps.

Stepchild

I'll get a new bedding job done ! But this time I know how it should be done ! THANK You.

The bedding stuff is under and around the recoil lug in a very tight fit.

Vapodog, don't wory, I got it as a joke.

Ryan

You say that you are using a tripod to support the front... is there any padding between the rifle nd the tripod? If not, the rifle will jump all over the place...

Perhaps you could try a sandbag between the rifle and the tripod..

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
is there any padding between the rifle nd the tripod?

There is some rubber on the tripod, and I usually put a rag over it too, to prevent scratches.
I use the same setup with my 308Win, and manage groups less than 1".

Ryan

Ryan,
If you have a Dremel tool(small rotary grinder) and some small bits, just remove the unwanted bedding material as directed and then shoot it. Might save you some cash. At this point you don't have much to lose.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by A_Zoli:
There is some rubber on the tripod, and I usually put a rag over it too, to prevent scratches.
I use the same setup with my 308Win, and manage groups less than 1".

Ryan

Ryan, since you have good results with your bench setup, this is unlikely to be the reason for your Sako's problems. Still, when I read the above, I could not help thinking how you really need to use a sandbag for your front rest.

If what you call a "tripod" is a regular front rest, you'd need a bag much like this - assuming it would fit your rest (?):



You can buy something like this over the Internet for around 15-20$ plus shipping...

- mike

I've come across some old 222s that were built on old 1/16 twist 22 Hornet barrels. One might try loading some 40 grain poly tipped bullets and see if the rifle shoots any better.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
If what you call a "tripod" is a regular front rest

I think it is a regular front rest. It's a steel pipe with 3 feet and a V-shaped groove on top.
The sandbag shown, I use to support the rear stock, so the rifle can sit in this setup without my support.

quote:

Originally posted by Johnly:
I've come across some old 222s that were built on old 1/16 twist 22 Hornet barrels.

My 222 has a 1/14 twist, with a lot of lands and grooves.
But maybe you have a point with the 40grains bullet.

Ryan

Ryan,

hopefully your rear bag will be akin to the bags on this page:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RIBBRBRB&type=store

I admit the picture I posted above is perhaps not the most detailed. Basically, there are front and rear bags. The front bags to be used with a mechanical rest was what I was hoping to illustrate.

Here is a page with a bunch of different front bags:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RIBBRBFB&type=store

- mike

Dear Mike,
I think Johnly might very well be on the right track if the bedding isn`t the problem! I have seen several of the Vixens as well as the L-46 Riihimakis with the slow twist barrels. As Johnly said, try a load with the 40gr and see what happens. You will only have to try one load as it`ll either group or it won`t! Good luck with the little Sako.

Aloha, Mark

If you havn't did it already clean your barrel with a good copper solvent like Sweet's 7.62.
The barrel may look perfect but without a bore scope copper can be hard to detect. Pedro

You may have more than one problem. Check the bore with a borescope. I had a near new Sako Heavy Barrel in 6mmPPC that wouldn't shoot inside 1 and 1/2" at 100m. It had what I thought was a pristine bore. But a benchrest gunsmith showed me that the bore was quite eroded on one side, like the surface of the moon. It turned out that a complete shipment of Sako rifles was stored incorrectly and they all had the bores rusted on one side. Unfortunately it was too late to claim warranty. It now has a new Shilen.

Ryan:

I have the same model only in .222Rem Mag. It never shot a group less than 1/2" until after 6000 rounds then it went to hell and wouldn't keep them inside 6". Replaced the barrel.

Ok, what mine started out like brand new. It had several hollow place's several inches long where the bullet would lose contact with the barrel. I discovere this while cleaning it.

Take a piece of soft lead and mash it tight just ahead of the chamber and push it slowly on up the bore and out. Feel how it glides thru the bore all the way. Once you get it out, look for any strange markings on the slug other than land & Groove's. In addition, pay special attention when the slug is at the last inch of the muzzle to any difference in feel as it slide's out the bore.

As you're not too far from where it was built. Might be good to contact Sako factory, they'll be friendly, I was there back in 1972 and was treated very well. I also ordered a second gun while there, in 7mmag.

Take that bipod off and use sandbags under the fore arm, not under the barrel. I like to sometimes not even hold the gun, just bag it well so it won't move any. And just squeeze the trigger and gently put more shells in it to fire a 5 shot group. Make sure the gun don't move.

I've had two scope's, one after the other and one was brand new that were bad too. So obtain at least a third scope. I'd suggest shoot it on another gun to make sure the groups thru it are good and tight. Then install it on this gun and see how it match's up with the first group on the first gun.

I'd also suggest you measure the twist by using a tight patch and marking/measuring your rod at one revolution to learn for sure what the twist is.

Heavier bullets take a faster twist. My gun had a 14" twist and shot just great with 55gr and lighter.

Make sure all the screws are tight everywhere. but, don't over tighten any of them. Take each screw out one at a time and retighten them. That goes for every screw on the scope rings too.

I don't believe there's been a better scope base made than what Sako has on their rifles.

Best of luck, and don't let it whip you, it's just a piece of steel and hunk of wood/or plastic.

George