In support of hunters having questioned their confidence in NON magnum cartridges, I wanted to pass on this good article....

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/shooting/article/0,19912,1111724-1,00.html

Nothing against those who use larger cartridges, shoot them well, and effectively cleanly kill game......I wanted to impart that having a smaller cartridge chambering have virtues and sometimes 'less is more...desirable'

I do advocate, 'use enough gun' but shot placement with good bullet choice is a primary concern. Shootability/hittability is key and all of us who have either experienced first hand or witnessed others miss or wound do to their however small or great fear of rifle's recoil and blast can attest.

I think this fact is finally coming back around, given a recent trend toward promoting more sensible non magnum options for many applications where they are not necessary nor desirable.

I personally sold my first big game rifle, a 7mm Mag, as it was MORE than I needed where I hunt, and I like to shoot a lot, and many rounds out of the 7mag loaded to the hilt, pounded me and I developed a flinch, same thing with 44 mag revolvers, so now I choose to shoot rounds I can tolerate more but still reach out and kill with authority. That is just me and my preference.

This is in response to those who question their small cartridge rifles ability to swiftly down game, at typical hunting ranges. Their 'adequacy' is very often DIRECTLY proportional to our ability to place a slug.

I use to have a 300 Win Mag, but I must admit that I started to flinch when shooting. I sold the gun and purchased a .25-06.

Although the 300 was a lot more powerful I'm a lot more confident with the .25-06 just because I know I shoot a lot better with it.

thats why i want to trade my kimber montana 300wsm for a heavier 280..

its not so bad shooting the 150grainers but shooting 10 or so 190s is making me want to flinch.
the voices in my head are saying each time before i pull the trigger "look out, the scopes going to get you in the face" i think its happened 3 times.

thats shooting prone off sand bags. aint noticed it in the field. saved all the problems by putting the scope forward as far as it could go

There is truly a lot of merit to the statement..."less is better"....sometimes it's just the gospel truth.

In my experience, general trend seems to be about a 180 these days. I see far more ppl trying to do more (sometimes too much) with small cals than I see ppl chasing the mags and big bores. It seems very in vogue to see how small a cal one can use for game x, y, z...

Both are wrong. There is no free lunch. Compromise is needed. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

My buddy and I had a similar conversation at the range today. It was provoked by a 7 shot .300" group he just shot with a bull barreled 22-250 that he swapped for a similar .308. The .308, he stated , was beating himup too badly. During that discussion we both agreed that many of our rifles are not pain free enough to shoot the amount we do every week. I think some decisions are going to have to be made. Oh my roger

Good discussion. I shoot a 300 flinch-free for the first 15 to 20 rounds and then my groups widen up. So even though I hate to admit it, I do get the gips after awhile of shooting the hammers.

I spent an enjoyable shooting session last weekend with a Rem LVSF in 204 Ruger. Not much felt recoil at all, very little to no muzzle jump, and you can see the holes in the paper at the trigger pull. Nice change of pace.

Had a .338/378 Weatherby for a while. It was a real "gee whiz" rifle!!! Almost destroyed 50+ years of flinch free shooting. The use of the Accubrake required DOUBLE ear protection!!
I sold it to make room for more pleasant shooting.

That certainly is an excellent point. It would almost seem that all the cartridges one would need to take any game on the planet at pretty much any reasonable range was invented prior to 1970. All the new faster, bigger, louder magnums and other cartridges don't really offer anything in the way of straight killing performance, just different degrees of it. I'm still glad to see innovation in sporting cartridges, but I think this has become more of a novelty than a necessity.

I have shot 100 rounds of 180's from a 30-06 wearing a tee shirt. And I enjoy shooting my 7mag and 300WM. The thing is, folks get a boomer, take it out to check it out and do too much at the first sitting. Then they don't practice with it anymore. You do have to keep your hand in if you're gonna shoot the boomers well.
Since moving to Wild and Wonderful West Virginia, I have subscribed to the less is more idea. I have been using a .260 and a .300 Savage for my local deer hunting.
I never bought into the "godawfulbig" scope idea. Even when I was doing a lot of hunting out west. --my go to elk rifle wore a 1.5x5 scope-- So my rifles wear a 1.5x5 and a vintage K3.
I still shoot my boomers however. Never know when you might have a elephant come in the front yard.

Elephant attack ....too funny!

I want to comment on Nimrod, point taken, yet I sold a rifle to a guy who takes his annual winter venison supply on a farm helping cull animals with none other than a 22-250.

I don't recommend it, yet I have no qualms with him doing it, it is a very accurate rifle, he knows and shoots it well, and waits for his shot to present, placing it well. They are deadly when you thread the bullet to the vitals. Not an all around rifle for big game no, but it works for him.

I am not in support of 'stunt shooting' like I read a post recently, a guy wanted to take a doe with a 38 special at 25 or so yds, just to do it, as he like this old Colt.

That was not a humane plan of hunting in my book.

Using a small or marginal RIFLE that is scoped, and accurate with surgical precision, to use on CHOICE shots, can be ethical.

Now to go elk hunting or elephant hunting as well with say a 220 swift might be unethical, ineffective, and the latter.....potential dangerous.....to the hunter!

I see a LOT of practicality using 260-358 winchester for deer through elk/moose/black bear within 300 yds, which covers a LOT of hunting. Now a 7WSM is fine, and I even use a 7 BR on deer, a 7STW at under 350-400 yds for deer is overkill as is a 17 centerfire being wrong.

Yes nimrod, I think the pendulum is swinging back to where a majority of hunters who don't get lots of range time, sensible shootable cartridges/rifle combo.

To another's reply, I love Kimber rifles, but a large cartridge may not be very pleasant to shoot in one. I think one might find more of the harder kicking chamberings in a used Kimber on the market than say smaller standard rounds, and for that very reason, balance of recoil vs what you need for the job at hand. I think a 270 WSM would be my largest round used in that rifle, but would settle for a 260 or 7mm-08 very happily.

SO Paul in New Zealand, I hope you never cut your eye.....watched a young kid shoot his older, and much larger brothers build....50 BMG, and thought the scope cut him, went over and asked, he said no about the time he turned and looked at me, and by gosh the kid had cut his forehead deep to the bone, and not felt it, the danged braked 50 being so loud and coming back so strong he never knew it! That will make you want to avoid the extreme for sure!

All that 50 BMG was being used for was giggles (I think ego). But, the shooting sports - that is what we do all this for right, fun? That said, I guess fun is defined differently by us all. I can honestly say I just love going to the range with my 6mm BR and 7mm BR's and likely get scoffed at a good bit, by one guy who uses 308 alot, and 300 Jarrett's, danged that was a loud gun, he spit 165's out at something like 3450 fps!

Guess what, the same guy, he is now building a custom 6mm BR. I think even as macho and he is a much bigger fella than I am, I believe he has admitted to himself, that the 6BR can punch paper all day at half the recoil and less blast, and save him money on powder and bullets in the process, without giving up any accuracy, and perhaps gaining some, while having a better trajectory, even though he uses his target knobs.

It really was a surprise to see this guy, and his 'pendulum' swing, but I think he has 'seen the light' and expect him to win many matches with his new 6BR. This is informal range competition, local matches, not serious PPC type benchrest, but it is shot to 415 yds.

I think what MIGHT have gotten his interest, when he saw my .498 group at 330 yds (3 shots) that I had done right next to his group that was perhaps an inch. This was my 6mm BR built on a Ruger #1. I think he was scared my old technology falling block might come to a meet and spank his bolt gun!

Seriously, I do realize that was ONE group, but it averages .5 moa and better, and I know I would NEVER shoot a 308 let alone a larger gun that well, which is the very reason I shoot even in the field in certain conditions, what gun I know I can squeeze off a solid shot, and that the bullet/load combo will do what is needed when it arrives. I choose among various rifles I have based upon stand locations and even morning or evening hunts, as I want more margin for error should anything go wrong on an evening hunt, where I might want a blood trail, just in case.

To think my first rifle was a 7mag and now my most fun guns are on BR cases.....I guess wisdom came with some age. I do have to admit not hunting on usually where shots stretch or are expected more than 300-400 yds. A person hunting often out west may well be served by a flatter shooting gun than I may use.

Nice to see replies from those who want to enjoy shooting pain free, and value maximizing marksmanship, by avoiding a flinch issue.

6.5BR said,

quote:

A person hunting often out west may well be served by a flatter shooting gun than I may use

I really wonder if that statement is all that true? I've never hunted back east and all my hunting has been for mainly deer in California, Oregon, Nevada and Arizona. There were a few trips to Oregon and Washington State for elk and elk here in Arizona but my hunting is primarily for deer. I've use cartidge ranhinf from the 30-30 to the 7x57, 30-06, .270, >300 Win. mat and even a .375 H&H once. I'd just bought that rifle and used it to shoot pocket gophers and took it on the deer hunt more to get used to it than anything else.
Now, to be totally honest, with the exception of maybe two deer, possibly a third which escapes memory, in 58 years of hunting deer, all could have been taken with that plain old 30-30 Win. in am M94 carbine. That doesn't meke me some kind of great hunter, no not at all. One, I have never hunted for horns. I hunted for the meat. Now, I realize that amongst all those great white hunters on this site, that may make me some kind of low life, but long ago, I saw that a lot of unethical practices were being done in order for some dude to satisfy his ego trip by getting his animal in "The Book". Now, I have no quarrel with the record books as the idea was to recognize exceptional species of big game. My quarrel is because the name of the "hunter" is also in the book, IE satisfying the "hunter's" ego trip Has coause, shall we say questionable practices. The only way, as I see is is if the hunter's name is omitted from the book and only pertinent facts about the animal recorded.
Why do I feel this way? One one hunt, I came across the bloated carcasses of three very large Mule Deer. Only the heads were missing. Another instance, a good friend shot one of the biggest damn mule deer I've ever seen. There were three of us at the time who were trying to outsmart that old timer. George, (my friend) got the old boy with his 30-30 way down in a steep canyon. It was late, and he had to get out of the area before dark, so after gutting the deer and moving it some distance from the pile of innards, he covered the animal with his coat, left his rifle and pack and hiked out with the intention of getting his brother to help him get the deer out with some horses the next morning. When they got there, the deer was gone, George's tag torn up and laying on the ground next to his jacket. His rifle was also missing. Neither the deer or rifle were ever recovered. having seen that deer yself, I guarantee you it'd go way up in the "book."
FWIW, they followed the tracks and came across a hunter camped out and asked him about the deer. he said this guy who had been camped about a half mile away came through witht he biggest darn deer he'd ever seen draped across this guys horse. Said the guy made a comment about not even having to fire a shot. Whoever the guy was, he'd already broke camp and departed the scene.
Not that's the whole story of that deer. How big was he? My other partner Mike and I junped him while he was running with a small herd at the beginning of the rut. As they ran off, he looked almost like a bull elk running with those deer. A sad state of affairs is all I can say, all thanks to those who are too unethical to do it right.
Paul B.

Recoil is a matter of what you have experienced. When we all started shooting, any centrefire made a hell of a bang and had recoil. As time goes on this became a spectrum of this kicks harder than that. I can vividly recall when I would start shooting a 270 again in the spring after shooting a 22-250 @ coyotes all winter. That thing kicked! After a lot of years and shooting a pile of different guns my recoil continuim has changed. In the end what we should consider is what is necessary to take the game we are shooting humanely. Cannons arent required but there is definitely such thing as too light. If your 300 WSM seems brutal,pick up a 338 win mag shooting 250's. After a session at the range your 300 WSM will seem better. Not that anything has changed other than your relative experience. FWIW

On the recoil, yes, if you shoot something bigger, and hell I was offered and tried a friend's 416 Rem Mag, just cuz I was there, but I'll be darned if I ever want a piece of that again, I think it would hurt me about as much as a bear, now in college I seem to recall shooting a 375, not terribly bad, but a 338 mag Rem 700 in HS stock was MORE than I wanted with 225's, so I stuck with my 338-06 at the time, a half pound heavier at 8 lbs naked. With limited ranges sessions I could shoot 1/2 moa groups all day with 6x42 scope, but shot no more than say 20-25 rounds per session max.

With other rounds, I shoot them more.

Oh, I was did some impromptu 'varmint type' hunting with a 270 BDL SS 700, that sounded like a canon it seemed with 100 gr topped out, and it was devastating, recoil not bad, but I never did want to shoot the number of rounds in it in a day like my 243 Sako at the time, which never got 'tiring', my experience, I have always shot better, and had more fun, using cartridges that were tolerable. Reocoil is subjective, some people are small and roll with it, others bodies don't 'absorb' the recoil well and it rattles their teeth, that seems to be me

Chance of getting a shot at a spike elk in WA: 1%

Chance of another hunter within 200 yards: 50%

If you don't knock him down, someone else will get him, and you will not live long enough to get ANOTHER chance.

If you think that the 30-06 is big enough for 600 pound elk, then you must think that the .223 is big enough for 200 pound deer.

Sir, I do not advocate 223 for deer, but I will tell you if it was what I had, and a good shot opportunity presented, knowing my limitations, I might do a head, neck, or lung shot with a good bullet, and the first 2 or a spine hit would Dtop right there,

A 30-06 is not my cup of tea, yet it is entirely adequate on elk, a 338-06 being what I would prefer if chasing them, now the problem of someone else claiming your animal, is that the cartridges fault?

I hear you saying what, you need 50BMG power on elk to vaporize, I mean, Immobilize with any hit? I have NO lack of confidence in a 30-06, and would choose very likely a premium bullet, just as I would even in a 338 bore, and use a high sectional density controlled yet expanding bullet, and break one or both shoulders, but hey, nothing stops one from doing a head or neck shot on an elk either.

In speaking with a barrel maker, he and another reputable person were culling elk with a 6/284 and I do believe 107 GKM hollow points, head shots of course, and at a good range, shot placement is needed more than ft lbs to maximize DRT kills, as yes, a larger bore or more power MAY Lessen an animal traveling/or as far, yet a shot to the CNS is in order to guarantee it does not travel.

I guess before 1906, hunters using 30/30's did more trailing, but they did not go hungry.

Actually, it is VERY sad anyday, any person (not sportsman mind you) Steals another's animal. I heard of it many times, yet not experienced it, and I am surprised things are not escalated in the field, I guess tempers are contained........

I am sorry you experience fear of theft of an animal you fairly take, and a need for 'extra insurance' but by all means, whatever you need to ensure you COLLECT after you harvest an animal taken with your firearm, by all means use it.

I am just taken aback that a 30-06 is considered inadequate on elk. I think bullet choice can make the difference between good or great performance on game. I think a good 180-200 spitzer would offer plenty smack down on elk. Yes, they can be tough to kill, but I have seen them soak up 300 Win mag, and stand/travel more than you would ever imagine, though dead on their feet not knowing it.

Just as people loaded 220's long ago when in grizzly country with '06's and did what needed to be done, when used, even the 220 might be appropriate if not needing to shoot way out.

Perhaps your distances are greater and you do need more, way out there than an '06 can provide. I can understand that.....since distance diminishes energy.

I have lost track of how many times a pheasant was chased up by another hunter, and after he shot at it a while, it flew near me, and I shot it down.

Once the guy's dog retrieved it to him before I could fetch it.

Here is in the state of WA, we fish shoulder to shoulder from the shore, and the trolling boats are few feet apart. The hunters can see a half dozen other hunting parties at any time. Parking for hunters is often a problem. Hunter traffic jams are a problem. I90 is now less of a hunter traffic jam than it was in 1965.

What does it all mean?
If and elk is running in WA it will draw fire every so many yards as it runs past the next hunter.
The lucky hunter who gets an elk, may draw dozens of other gawking hunters who heard or watched the shooting.

Arguments over who shot an elk are common, often resulting in communal autopsy looking for the bullet.

WOW, talk about hunting pressure! OR, lack of enough acreage for the hunters! Things are not that bad down here by any means, but public hunting can get to be a hassle and potential dangerous due to poor hunter safety actions.

One must be careful and I know personally some gave up hunting due to slobs coming in the woods drinking beer on the wheelers etc. No excuse for that in today's time. Guns/alcohol do not mix.

The fact hunters continue in your area speak of the ambition they have to pursue the sport given the situation at hand there....but geez, that must take a lot of the fun factor away for sure!

A .308 Win is to much gun? Granted it kicks more than my .223's, but I can't say it makes me flinch.

Now firing a .454 Casul at full loads makes me shake at times!

Using enough gun for the game you're taking is a good reason to take up reloading, though many people don't shoot enough to justify it. I don't like a lot of recoil, which is why I enjoy .223 & 22-250 at the rage. Yet I still like to shoot my 45-70; it's just that 300gr HP's at around 2100fps in my 6-pound NEF is downright harsh. I know that's not much to you .458 Lott aficionados, but it's plenty for me, being a master flincher and all. The alternative is I can load 350gr cast bullets using pistol powders, and shoot it all day and still have fun shooting the same rifle.

quote:

The use of the Accubrake required DOUBLE ear protection!!

It is not just the recoil that can cause us to flinch, in many cases the anticipated noise from the muzzle blast does it. If any of you have nerve damage or tinnitus like me, you will know what I am talking about. That almost ended my shooting career. Also FYI, wearing double ear protection only increases your protection by about 5 decibals. Not much, but critical with magnums. I can no longer shoot a magnum even with double hearing protection because of my flinch, ringing, risk for more harm, etc.

I have hearing damage as you, and it does not help matters. Also, to the above poster, if you shoot say 308 with heavy bullets with top loads alot, then shoot say a 6mm BR, you SHOULD notice, I did, as well as fellow comrades, a noticable jump in shooting enjoyment, actually enjoying shooting, w/o the cumulative effect that the recoil from a larger round begins to have set in.

I am sure we are all different, but a 260-7mm/08 is all I want for volume shooting, a 25-06 or 6.5x55 in long actions. Heavier calibers affect my shooting over time with a certain volume of rounds. When in the past using heavier calibers i.e. 7mag, 338-06, 338 Win Mag, or 350 mag, I restricted my shooting to a very limited number of rounds, having to consciously think, squeeze, follow through, and not flinch as breaking the trigger. With my 6BR and similar guns, I don't even have a conscious thought of them going off as the recoil is a non issue.

Perhaps others can shoot larger cartridges in that manner, not I, nor do I care to try gaining a tolerance, as my hunting does not require larger cartridges. That is me, and my hunting. I realize others might differ.

As to 308, well I push 140's at 2960 in a 21" 7mm-08, that is all I want, does not make me flinch, but after a number of rounds, I don't care to keep shooting it. I shoot it well, and stop before getting too tired. Now as to the 454, I stopped long ago at a 4inch Smith & Wesson M29, 44 mag, the blast and recoil was past my limit, so I now use 41's. Honestly, shooting them recently with moderate loads/cast bullets reminded me of what I thought long ago when I began shooting 41's, how they felt with max jacketed loads. Age perhaps, perhaps lack of range time, both, don't know, but perception to things vary to all, but as the saying goes, pereception is reality. Recoil is a real concern in what I choose to use, handgun or rifle. A friend swears recoil has NO effect on him, yet he is always saying his gun is not sighted in correctly, this is a 350 magnum and he has had little shooting mileage in his life, and when I check/shoot the gun, it's dead on. Funny. I guess I flinch right and get lucky! Seriously, he never had that problem with his 243 or 280. After making a few quick DRT kills on 2 deer and a hog, he missed a couple of animals and blamed it on the gun. He lost confidence. He also carries a cut on his nose from getting too close to the scope while shooting late one evening at an animal, the scope bit him. He swears again he is not worried or scared of recoil, but I bet if I faked putting in a round in the gun, he might just jerk that trigger and dry fire, and learn what the real culprit has been. He has yet to master the 350's recoil, but I have to say he has been shooting more to get practice and confidence, just a few rounds at a time. I think that was a real case in point, and a true one.

I hate to sound like a whimp on recoil, and at 190 lbs, built fairly well, working out regularly, yet my nervous system and ears just don't agree with too much of it. Just my experience. One the comment about loud guns affecting shooting, if we had silencers legally on all guns, we would truly shoot them with better accuracy I am convinced. Eliminated the blast would do wonders for us all on our shooting concentration, significantly reducing the perceived effects of recoil, I truly believe.

I never have, do, or try getting or expecting top accuracy and groups when fellow shooting are next to me with loud guns. Anyone else have that happen?

110%, without a doubt! One of the worst days I've ever spent (actually it was only about 15 mins, had to leave, couldn't take it) was encountered while working up an elk load for my .338 win mag. I had my custom molded ear plugs in and a pair of muffs on over top.

The problem - the guy next to me was shooting a 5.56 AR with a 16" bbl and a break! INTOLLERABLE! Hell, I flinched every time he shot it, and I was 10 yards away.

I'm a middle of the road kinda guy. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I still maintain, in the past ten years, I have seen far more ppl trying to do too much with a small cal than I have seen ppl trying to do too little with a big bore.

It is the noise for me. I shoot my 300 win alot better with ear plugs and muffs over the top of them. All that being said I am having a poster here put a 260 barrel on a mauser action for me. I am hoping it will be my go to gun, I will still shoot the 300 win but not as much as the 260 I think.

Nimrod, I am guessing where you live, are you seeing alot of 22 and 24 cal rifles used on deer with mixed results?

That 260 on a mauser might do real nice, set up to take advantage of all the OAL you can load, and get heavy bullets if wanted, seated to not eat more powder capacity than you have to, should be a dandy.

Let us know how it does.....oh, what mauser, some '98?

quote:

Originally posted by jnemmers:

It is not just the recoil that can cause us to flinch, in many cases the anticipated noise from the muzzle blast does it.

Quickload calculates muzzle pressure, and that [and chamber and barrel volume and barrel bore and length and muzzle shape and environment reflections] gives the noise characteristic.

Loads above 10,000 psi muzzle pressure send a hard to ignore shock wave through my face, that hearing protection does not keep out. I wear the ear muffs AND the ear plugs.

Amen to using both, I always do, and try to always have some plugs of sort while hunting.

Trying to save what's left!

I've definitely noticed I'm more sensitive to blast than recoil when shooting handgun in an indoor range. Plugs and muffs for sure.

I had 7x57Fw which I felt was not enough, so went 270WeathMag.Discovered 270win was more than enough. These days 6.5x55 or 7x57 with quality bullet is sufficient... things come full circle.
There have been photos posted on this forum of 280rem7mm139sst2986mv that retained 47% weight on mountain goat at 437yd.
If you loaded your 6.5x55/130AB-2900mv, it would be traveling only a fraction slower at 437yd,butwould have fractionally less wind drift. and would do the job just as good if not better than the 139sst.
Ballistic Calculator

My main .308 load is 150 gr SST, which isn't heavy for cartrige. When I shot it, I often put about 20 rounds down ranged before I put it down.

I do shoot my .223's a LOT more, and recoil does have something do with it (price is the main consideration). I guess growing up where I did, a .308 was considered "average" recoil, with the .300 WinMag being "a lot" so my perceptions are a bit different.

Now, I would not send 20 rounds of a .300 WinMag down range on any given day. I have seen to many bruised shoulders and ringing ears for that.

quote:

...and the caliber was 8x68mm, which is popular in Europe and would be a good choice for North American moose and big bears.

Maybe moose. But I'd still feel more confident shooting a brown or grizzly bear with my 416 Rem mag. It, and my 10ga magnum shotgun have about the same recoil.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: with a big game animal in my sights when I squeeze the trigger, I have never felt the recoil. Sitting at the shooting bench is a whole nother thing. That can get down right punishing.

i dont know, but, when im out for the day i'll save the 257 WBY and the 45-70 for last just in case.

quote:

Also FYI, wearing double ear protection only increases your protection by about 5 decibals. Not much, but critical with magnums. .

jnemmers,
The way decibels work is like this. An increase of 10 decibels (one Bel)is ten times louder. 3 is double, 6 is double that again or 4 times. 9 is 8 times louder and ten is ten times louder. An increase in protection of "only 5 decibels" is actually huge, and well worth it. It's too late for me though.

Typical Carmichel drivel. Just fluff and BS to have something to write about.

Assuming that we're speaking of adults of sound enough body and health to be hunting big game in the first place....I can understand a discussion of how a lighter caliber might make a better choice for use on heavy game for those that are sensitive to recoil - such as a.375 Magnum vs a .470 Nitro Express. However, to suggest that such might apply to lesser calibers for use on lesser big game, like .250 Savage vs. a .30 caliber something or other, is both absurd and pathetic. Such articles do nothing but promote waste of game due the use of inadequate rifles.

Any responsible hunting ethic matches cartridge selection to the game hunted. Recoil will never have anything to do with it. Any average adult who cannot handle a rifle that is adequate for a given game animal without flinching should not be hunting that game.

A small bore rifle (7mm Magnum) that causes a flinch?......... jayZUZ!
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 nitro, I am east of Tx, and they say everything is bigger in your state, perhaps shooters, and rifles. Me, yes, volume shooting with a 7mag affects my shooting.

Perhaps if I were not trying to squeeze the accuracy I do out of a rifle, it would not be that bad, but when you get a 1/2" group at over 330 yds, its hard to shoot rifles that you might be lucky to do it at 50.

I love shooting, lots of it when I get to the range, and I limit my larger guns. The smaller the round, the more I spend time shooting them, learning them, and enjoying them as well. My ears notice as much as my shoulder.

I won't knock anyone who can shoot their large guns well, I have no problem with it.

I do frown upon shooters/hunters who cannot, do not, and will not spend time building up to shooting the heavier caliber rifles well, as when you miss your game, or the vitals, what is gained?

I suspect MOST posters on AR know their weapons and do well. I do believe we represent less than 10%, and likely not anywhere near that, of the hunters out there. Game IS wounded and lost with bigger guns. Now if you place the shot equally well, whether by no flinch, luck, flinch right, etc, it does not matter, I am in favor of having as MUCH gun as the shooter can handle, but again, a lot of shooters simply don't shoot these larger guns well if you notice the neophytes at the range. I watched a guy just about burn up a 7mag, I believe BAR also, and maybe with Boss, barrel was SMOKING hot! He did not know to let it cool, so between the barrel heat and his tender shoulder, he was not having any progress even getting sighted in.

I absolutely hate when say any deer, doe or buck is wounded or lost. Whether clean miss or wounded, if a hunter loses that animal and no blood is found, you might never know the outcome. Now plan well, prepare, practice and know your equipment in and out, then your odds are much in favor of being successful. The situations I have witnessed or been on hunts, are guys who are not on AR. Yes, they could benefit big time, by learning more.

Worst kicker I've encountered was a Marlin 336 in .45-70. Was shooting 300 gr Barnes bullets at somewhere around 2200 fps. Downright uncomfortable to say the least. In fact, had to go to the dentist to have a bridge recemented after the first session, and put a Decelerator on it before the next.

I like the .25-06 and 7 mag, but then everyone to his own.

there is no doubt in my mind I can shoot my deer rifles , such as my 25s 270 and similar rounds at the bench better than I can my .338 win.
As I get older I have less intrest in magnums.
I am rather proud that I once got a little to close to the 1X4 leupold that sits on my Marlin 45/70 and split my forhead open abit, I then turned the magnifacation , down to 1 and disiplined myself not to think about the shot just squeeze and wait for the recoil. next 3 350 grain hornady bullets went into 1.10. with the blod dipping in my eye.
I am thinking I will build another whelen. And call that my elk rilfe.
Its not a cream puff round either but I can shoot it
prety comfortably...tj3006

Recoil is cumulative. The bigger the caliber, the less you shoot them at one time. One of my most consistently good grouping guns is my .416 Rigby, almost never much over .5 for three shots. A lot of days three or four shots is all I shoot, but I never go a week without shooting. Size means nothing, I'm 5'9 175 pounds, recoil bothers me a lot less than most big guys.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
400 nitro, I am east of Tx, and they say everything is bigger in your state, perhaps shooters, and rifles. Me, yes, volume shooting with a 7mag affects my shooting.

Perhaps if I were not trying to squeeze the accuracy I do out of a rifle, it would not be that bad, but when you get a 1/2" group at over 330 yds, its hard to shoot rifles that you might be lucky to do it at 50.

I love shooting, lots of it when I get to the range, and I limit my larger guns. The smaller the round, the more I spend time shooting them, learning them, and enjoying them as well. My ears notice as much as my shoulder.

I won't knock anyone who can shoot their large guns well, I have no problem with it.

I do frown upon shooters/hunters who cannot, do not, and will not spend time building up to shooting the heavier caliber rifles well, as when you miss your game, or the vitals, what is gained?

I suspect MOST posters on AR know their weapons and do well. I do believe we represent less than 10%, and likely not anywhere near that, of the hunters out there. Game IS wounded and lost with bigger guns. Now if you place the shot equally well, whether by no flinch, luck, flinch right, etc, it does not matter, I am in favor of having as MUCH gun as the shooter can handle, but again, a lot of shooters simply don't shoot these larger guns well if you notice the neophytes at the range. I watched a guy just about burn up a 7mag, I believe BAR also, and maybe with Boss, barrel was SMOKING hot! He did not know to let it cool, so between the barrel heat and his tender shoulder, he was not having any progress even getting sighted in.

I absolutely hate when say any deer, doe or buck is wounded or lost. Whether clean miss or wounded, if a hunter loses that animal and no blood is found, you might never know the outcome. Now plan well, prepare, practice and know your equipment in and out, then your odds are much in favor of being successful. The situations I have witnessed or been on hunts, are guys who are not on AR. Yes, they could benefit big time, by learning more.

about 3 weeks ago, i took a 50yard shot at a yearling red stag (spiker) using my 300wsm and 150gr accubonds. i managed to kill it, it ran less than 50m. i never found him till a few weeks later i passed by that same spot on another hunt. there he was, lying dead where i swore id looked weeks earlier. its amazing how sometimes they are lying infront of you and you just cant see them. that is the first one ive managed not to find within a half hour of shooting it. normally find them within minutes.

oh well, maybe i should just neck shot them all from now on and drop them on the spot.

My 40 yd doe this year was head shot, o yd traveled of course, did have a NICE buck a few years back LEAVE the scene for good after I dead centered (reticle-forgot about 1.5-2" high) and saw hair fly in 4.5-14 scope, 260 rem, deer never was seen again! Wish I had held a tad lower, I believe I grazed the hide, but certainly not hit spine or artery.

Deer at any distance also can move their head and neck, so only if a deer is Very motionless, as the last two shot that way were, both looking at my muzzle and objective lens! My 243 took one in neck, buddy lasered the doe kill at 42 yds, looked up as I aimed, thought why not, using a 70gr TNT anyway as that is what it was sighted in with, and I was more keen on using ammo I could hit POI with, than be off or miss with another grain bullet. That deer almost lost it's head!

Longer shots have more chance for movement in my mind, but very close shots on non trophy animals can often be taken as mine did, esp. when staring at you trying to figure you out!