My grandson usually hunts with .308 but last week-end we were using .22 cals so he continued this week-end. He got a doe with his .222 (not a .223). Dropped on spot--was using 55 grain Win bulk packed bullet.

Tell the wee lad .......Well done.

actually not a wee lad--he is now 21---very experienced hunter

Just wanted to report the progress I've made lately with my 458 deer rifle. Ammo is loaded, and rifle sighted in, so I'm ready for Texas.

I tried the 300gr TTSX bullets, and they are accurate, however not any more accurate than the 405 Rem bullets. That's a bit of a surprise. I loaded both bullets using the same powder - 60grs of H4895, same primer - Fed 215, same brass - Hornady.

Today at the range, doing the final sighting in, I made a surprising discovery. At 100yds both bullets hit at practically the same place, aiming at the same place.

The picture below shows the results of dialing in the first few shots, by the holes near the center. The two holes at lower left are the final confirmation. One is the 300gr TTSX, and the other is a 405gr Rem FN which hit exactly where I was aiming. This is with the heavy German #4 crosshairs. I raised the scope 2 more clicks and called it good. I'm very pleased since I can use either handload with no adjustments, holdover etc., out to at least 125 yds.

If the TSA folks ask what I'm hunting in Texas with a 458WM, I'll say hogzilla.

KB

All these recent .22 cal centerfire threads got me thinking back over past 25 years or so. I don't recall any experience with .22's on deer before that and certainly there was a time I thought it was a questionable deal. Now after a lot of experience and what I have witnessed I do have an observation (certainly not offered as a conclusion)--more deer dropped on the spot with .22's than what did with larger cals. Something I never would have thought or believed--but it has been what happened. All those years and all those deer--haven't lost a one--hard to believe.

Funny that you mention it. All the deer I've shot in the neck or head dropped on the spot too. It's amazing that we share such similar experience.

KB

Were those deer shot in the neck at 300 yards?

I firmly believe the 223 and the like can take deer but inside 100 yards or 1100 foot pounds. Bullet placement is also a key component.

I am fairly certain that within 100 yards would cover all the deer I'm speaking of. One man used a .22hornet and he said it was his main gun for years and he always put the bullet in the deer's ear. That's what he did on the one I'm aware of. That's the only one I recall hit in head or neck. The rest were hit in the body. Except that one with the hornet and one other all were using 55 grain Win bulk packed bullet. Oddly, none were using an AR platform. These were all Texas whitetail and probably 150 pounds or less on the hoof would cover them all. About 50-50 on the buck doe ratio. Night hunting not legal and all were taken legally. Meat damage very minimal on all.

Has anyone ever blew off a deers lower jaw while making all these head shots? I can't imagine a more horrendous way to make an animal suffer prior to death. It's the main reason I would never even attempt such a shot.

Scottfromdallas--All these head shots. I posted about one head shot. The guy that did that is not a regular where I hunt. I know of no others. Kabluewy did say ALL the ones he has shot in head dropped---but his would be a non factor in blowing off a jaw as he uses a .458 mag and everyone knows they don't need pinpoint accuracy--just getting close is all that is needed.

I got one with a T/C Contender 204 Ruger yesterday using a heavy (45 gr.) bullet and it dropped on the spot at a range of 252 yards. Though it did drop on the spot, it did then seem to revive and try to get up so I had to shoot it again but total distance it traveled after the first shot was maybe 10 feet.

Interestingly, there were 2 other deer with the one I shot and though the went away briefly, they then returned. It shows how much gunfire, at least from a 204 Ruger doesn't scare them that much. Actually, one that I took with a 22-250 was with probaby half a dozen others and they didn't leave until I had approached on foot to within about 100 yards.

I've also taken 3 deer with .224 caliber centerfires. One with a 22-250 required 2 shots because the placement of the first was bad. The other with a 22-250 was a DRT 360 yard shot. The one I got with a 222 went probably 100 yards after the one and only shot.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
actually not a wee lad--he is now 21---very experienced hunter

Tell the big lad....well done.

I've taken mule deer buck with the .223 (loaded hot) at 150-345 yards all with the same result. DRT.

I think some of the communication problems about the .223 come together when a guy from the East or Midwest is use to shooting whitetails out of a tree stand, where he either uses a 4-wheeler or a truck to drive from the farm house to the edge of the field, at 50-100 yards thinks that anything beyond that range is simply a stunt.

Out in the West the areas are mostly public hunting at distances when you can see deer and elk at 800-1400 yards and are thrilled if you can stalk and close the distance to 300-350 yards. You have to actually hunt for them and spend a little energy hiking around to find them and the hiking is not across a farmed field but the ups in the mountains, many times at high elevation.

Different experiences and different paradigms.

more Discussions with the open minded? Not in this life time! roger

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy did say ALL the ones he has shot in head dropped---but his would be a non factor in blowing off a jaw as he uses a .458 mag and everyone knows they don't need pinpoint accuracy--just getting close is all that is needed.

Actually CM, now that I recollect, I did blow the jaw off one with my 338, but got it in the neck with the second shot, upon whince it did in fact drop.

BTW, I have never hunted deer or hogs with a 458, but plan to ASAP. I think I'm getting plenty good accuracy to take head shots, within range, but at the velocity these bullets are moving, bloodshot meat should be minimal, blood trails plentiful (although very-very short), so there's no reason to not just take a good shot, whenever presented.

Unlike those who insist on using the 223, I don't take head shots just to ensure a quick kill, but to minimize meat damage. A hit near the shoulder with a 338 messes up a lot of meat.

Regarding "experience", a word that you and some others like to harp on so much to your delight, I have zero experience deer hunting with a 458. Imagine that - and furthermore I can make a prediction as to its effectivness, in my hands. Hard to believe, eh? Believe it.

That must seem like arrogance or genius to you. Furthermore, I have never seen a deer or hog shot with a 458, unlike my "experience" with observation of a deer shot with a 223, which got up and ran off after flopping around for a while.

The reason I can predict the outcome with shooting a deer or hog, with no practical experience with the cartridge except at the range, is because I have been to the range with it, and know how it shoots and where. I have experience with other cartridges. I actually pay attention to what the manufacturer says about the bullets and what they are designed to do. I know the math re external ballistics, trajectory, and energy of the bullet I'll use. With the 300gr TTSX .458 bullet, for example, I can predict that it will mushroom out and hold together and penetrate about five or six feet of hog. I can predict that is will not bloodshot a lot of meat, and punch a nice size hole on the way out, about the size of a 50 cent piece, and if I'm patient and skillful to wait for another hog to line up standing in just the right place on the opposite side of the first hog hit, the bullet is likely to kill the second one too.

Likewise, by the same means, with the additional benefit of actual observed results, I can predict the performance with a 223 on deer and hogs. It must amaze you, but really it's not difficult.

Actually whether you believe it or not isn't relevant. I'm going to post pictures to prove it, and like calling my shots, I'll shoot one in the head just for you, and one in the heart/lung boiler room, and I predict a clean kill in either case. Truthfully, I hope to be lucky enough to have the opportunity to take two with one shot. It could happen where I hunt, because often they come in bunches of a dozen or more and mill about. In the past I just didn't think of it, but instead waited until one seperated from the bunch.

KB

Wow--what a prediction. You are able to conclude that you can kill a hog by shooting it in the head with a .458 mag. and even post a picture. How did you ever make such a profound determination? Come on now, fess up you musta done this before when nobody was looking.

Like I said, it's amazing isn't it. Of course I could be wrong, depending on how much confidence I have at the time, and how much I believe in it. But then again, nevertheless, it is actually the sum of all that's measurable and thus predictable. I don't need to embellish it, and it will whack a hog just the same whether I believe in it or not, or whether I'm having a bad day, or whatever mood I'm in, phase of the moon, etc. I predict that the 458 will do exactly what it's supposed to do, when I squeeze the trigger, and the 300gr TTSX hits where I'm aiming. No surprises, just boreing hog whacking. Unlike using a 223, if the hog isn't DRT, I won't be able to blame the bullet.

Obviously there is some magic to the 223 that indicates it's the sum of more than what's actually there, measurably, so the magic must be intangibles such as belief and confidence that makes it such a 100% effective deer killer in your experience. You wouldn't make this stuff up, eh?

KB