Gents....I need your thoughts on this:

I have a very early Mannlicher-Schønauer (1906) built by Charles Lancaster, 6,5x54mm, all original, original full length leathercase..

The overall condition is excellent, barrel likewise (conventional rifling), don't think even a reblue since new..

The issue...alas my eyesight need optics, age taking its toll, is it heresy to mount a small scope on it..?

Rifle has African sights as is..

What to do..? Will mounting a scope affect value..?

I have modified a few rifles in ways that hurt their value. I buy guns to shoot them and hunt with them, not to let them sit in a safe and appreciate in value. I say its your rifle, if putting a scope on it will allow you to enjoy it more, go for it.

If you could find early original scope mounts for the MS and have them properly installed that modification will not hurt the value of the rifle, BUT,if one were to find an original set of bases and rings in good condition they might cost as much as $800.00. Then getting them installed properly might be expensive as well.

If I go for a scope I will do a traditional controlled- claw mount, I have one of those on a M1910 M-S, that looks very nice..

You might try here: http://www.wattswalnut.com/ms_scope_bases.php

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
I have modified a few rifles in ways that hurt their value. I buy guns to shoot them and hunt with them, not to let them sit in a safe and appreciate in value. I say its your rifle, if putting a scope on it will allow you to enjoy it more, go for it.

+1

Sounds like you will spend a fair amount of money to decrease the value.

The world is full of shooter grade guns, yours sounds to be in collectable condition.

If it was mine I would leave it alone and find another that has already been drilled/modified.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
Sounds like you will spend a fair amount of money to decrease the value.

The world is full of shooter grade guns, your sounds to be in collectable condition.

If it was mine I would leave it alone and find another that has already been drilled/modified.

+1

Personally, I'd leave it alone and get another gun.

It's a piece of history "as is." and as such is virtually irreplaceable. For me, the dollars aren't as important as it's uniqueness.

My 2 cents only.

Since I am not a collector I probably have a different view than most on here. It is my belief that since these old M-S's originally had scopes mounted on them there is no reason not to tastefully do it now. On my 1903 of many years ago I used an old G&H mount I found in a gunshop. Redfield made a very tasteful mount for them also. I think someone is making new copies of it for a reasonable price. Claw mounts are the one mount I would not use.

why not just sell it, since it has no historical value to you and buy a new CZ/Remington/Ruger/Savage/Tika/Winchester bolt action in 6,5x55 if you need a scope? That way nobody will care how you mutilate it?

Not to be rude or anything, but it is a very desirable and collectible rifle that will be impossible to replace once you have made a permanent visible change to it. Any change you cannot undo will degrade the rifle.

That's my dilemma Idaho....it also has historic interest to me..

I can understand your dilemma. If it were mine, and I had only this rifle to hunt with, I would be torn. But I have options, and they will not be making any more of these.

I own the only custom serial numbered Shiloh Sharps ever built. The owners have told me there will NEVER by another one. This one is also serial number EK100. The initials are Elmer Keith, a famous American shooter and writer. I had to get tri-focals a year ago to be able to correct my vision. I needed one of those old time tube scopes to be able to really shoot the rifle. Fortunately, the rifle has milled slots in the barrel for an MVA scope. I would have been torn between wanting to shoot the rifle, and milling a scope block slot in the rear. I would not have altered it, and just have been content to enjoy owning it in original condition, even if I could not shoot it accurately with my glasses.

Rich

You own a piece of history there.....there are lots of rifles floating around from more or less famous users..

One of James Sutherlands .577 went on auction (Westley Richards) lately, bought back to that company..

Imagine owning that one.....I would have sold my car with a grin to aquire that one...

You sound about my age (OLD) and my opinion is that value and history pale into insignificance when shooting time starts to run out. My guns are for my enjoyment and when they no longer suit that purpose, I trade for something I want to shoot. Exceptions of course, are those with emotional/personal/family value that you want to pass down. Otherwise, enjoy to the fullest.

Fitting a cocking piece sight might be an option for you. My eyes are pretty old too and the cocking piece sight has kept my M-S in the game long after I would've had to put it up. Granted, those sights aren't cheap, but it would be cheaper than a proper scope mounting system + quality scope. Also, such a sight allows the M-S carbine to retain its handling/balance characteristics that make it such a joy to carry all day. Just a thought.

I have more than twenty rifles. If they were all "un-babba'ed" and iron sighted it would be a problem. I had only one it would be an issue.

Don't you have anything else to shoot?

It's like owning a Rolls and deciding to cut a hole in the hood so you can mount a supercharger so you can race it.

Get glasses.

They're only original once. Sure they scoped M/S rifles....but not yours. Really slick, unaltered M/S's are not all that common anymore.

I'm not very young and my eyes aren't what they were 25-30 years ago either and I still use open sights. I also have an unaltered 1903 M/S and I wouldn't think of doing anything to it. Here's some tricks you can try that might help with the open sights. They have allowed me to keep from scoping any of my vintage firearms....which I would never do anyway. Mater of fact I have only one scoped rifle and have never hunted with it.

It's been my experience that almost all open rear sights, foreign and domestic, have too small a notch. Use a needle file and make the rear notch larger. Open it up until you can get adequate light around the front sight. Once you open it enough you can re-blue it and no harm, no foul. The next owner will probably thank you. You can also experiment with different colors of paint for the front sight. I like to use off white that is close to ivory. It isn't permanent and if you want to try some other color it is easily scraped off with a fingernail. For shooting groups and hunting I take a piece of the blue painters tape and punch a 1/8 inch hole in it. Trim it to about 1/4-3/8 diameter. With a little experimentation you can find the correct location to affix it to your glasses lens. This acts as an aperture and focuses your vision much better. It's amazing the difference that little aperture makes. My location is as close to the frame of my glasses as I can get it and near my nose. With the tape in that location it disappears when looking normally. Using those two little tricks I still head shoot squirrels out to about 30 yards with my 36 cal. flintlock and open sights. Deer sized game out to 100 yards is a gimme if I have a rest.

I don't know anything about how dense the cover you are hunting in Norway but for me here in the heavily wooded Ozarks 75 yards is a fairly long shot. Therefore I only need to be "accurate enough" on game. If I had to have a scope I'd use a different rifle.

Just thinking out loud, but if I altered this one and later learned I lost more money through the alteration than a decent similar knockabout rifle (maybe a RSI?) costs I'd be pretty PO'd.

OTOH, if I were a M/S collector I might cheer the alteration, figuring the death of another original just makes my stuff more valuable.

Sam

I have collected Mannlicher-Schoenauers off and on for the last forty years. During that time, the number of unmolested originals has fallen drastically. And the number of available "specialty" rifles with names of great repute such as Lancaster has fallen to zero.
I will suggest three possible directions for you to consider:
1. Find a Lyman #36 Receiver Sight for the pre-war MS.
2. Find a Lyman cocking piece sight for your rifle. It's called a 1-A, I believe. An alternative would be to find a Parker Hale (or similar) and have your gunsmith or machinist adapt it to fit your rifle.
Either option might enhance the value of your rare rifle. With the Lymans, the aperture has a little swing out. It's a small aperture normally. Swing out the aperture piece and you have a large hole aperture. You could even drill out the small aperture to fit your level of visual acuity.
3. Find a Griffin & Howe, Pachmayr, Jagger, or other make of side mount. Have your machinist or gunsmith make a plate which will attach to the left wall of the magazine box under the wood line. Attach the side mount to this plate. Then, and this is a small alteration from original, chisel out the small amount of wood necessary to attach the plate and mount to your rifle. This way the scope of your choice would be mounted over the bore with minimum "decay" to your rifle's originality.
I also suggest you look on the Mannlicher Collector's Association under the CLASSIFIEDS. There is a reputable MS collector in Denmark by the name of Philip Sparholt. Mr. Sparholt often has Mannlicher-Schoenauer parts and pieces for sale and should be able to help you.
Hope my thoughts help you get your wonderful rifle suited for the hunting life you desire for it.

I solve that problem by drilling new holes in a scope mount that match whatever holes are already on the rifle. You need to sort-of match the contour of the receiver, but there are a lot of Weaver mounts for assorted contours.

If you want to make it more of a shooter I would dump the stock for a McMillian (pretty sure you could bondo one up that would work for your M-S), have a picatinny rail fitted, top it with a Zeiss 6.5-20x50 in Warne tactical mounts, and fit it to a Pelican case with pluck out foam.

I mean, if you're gonna do it, go all out.






On a serious note, I feel your pain. I have a Aya shotgun that is too short. Thinking about adding a leather pad over the nicely checkered butt. Kills me to think of having it drilled. But for now, it sits, unshot in safe, and likely I can't replace it for one that fits for what I could get for it.
No way could I start modifying your rifle.
(Oh, pics would be fun to see)

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
On a serious note, I feel your pain. I have a Aya shotgun that is too short. Thinking about adding a leather pad over the nicely checkered butt. Kills me to think of having it drilled. But for now, it sits, unshot in safe, and likely I can't replace it for one that fits for what I could get for it.
No way could I start modifying your rifle.

At least you have an option, a not cheap option, but an option that might actually add to the value of your Aya shotgun. Have a stock maker produce a new buttstock, checkered as the original, of the correct LOP. Just use a wood grain that closely matches either your forend or the original buttstock.

If you need to sell the Aya at a later date, reinstall the original stock and offer the shotgun as original plus having the secondary buttstock for longer LOP needs. You'll only need to assure the stock maker doesn't damage your original buttstock while making the additional buttstock.

Get a Merit disk and stick it on your glasses at the range. It will improve your focus significantly. Combing that with a cocking piece sight or Lyman bolt stop sight will make your rifle useful.
In the beginning many of us spent a good bit of time and practice to learn to use a scope as they became practical. We left iron sights behind.
Now going back to irons is not something that happens without time and effort.

The cost of dorking up your rifle will go a good ways toward buying another MS with a scope.

If you choose to modify it look at the EAW mounts sold by New England Custom Guns.

Mount a scope on it and DAMN the naysayers. Lots of original and newer EAW/Recknagel options. You could do a G&H side mount as well.

Sure don't under stand why every one thinks scope when the eyes start to go. A good peep sight will let you still use iron although not the buck horn style.

Al

Here's my take on this...no diss or flame intended.

I've come across many questions just like you've asked on this and other forums and they all go something like this...

"I've got a fancy schmancy, highly valuable collectable shiny thing and I want to mess it up because I da dah, da dah, da dah...what do Ya'll think"

The responses follow the same pattern as above.

I don't collect ANYTHING...don't want or need the BS that comes with high value collectables, but if a valuable rifle fell into my hands I SURE THE HECK wouldn't go and devalue it by hanging some geegaw off it unless it came originally with that babble and then I MIGHT look around for that original pretty that could increase the value...THEN SELL IT.

Hey...you're obviously over 21...it's YOUR shooter...collectable value is in the eye of the beholder or another collector otherwise it's just another useful rifle to use...or maybe you're just waving around your fancy and trying to get fanny pats and saying "Lookee here what I got, bet YOU don't have one like it".

Very pleasant and well considered language there Wyoming. Do you perchance have any other nuggets of wisdom?

You might try to find a bolt peep sight. Good for older eyes AND original.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3 X 75R:
Very pleasant and well considered language there Wyoming.

Don't be offended. That's just how they speak in California.
Interesting fact - until 1963 Ridgecrest was named Crumville.

Honestly, the word is so engrained into the culture I work in I had not thought about it until I read it.

Aviation is a F''''ing fantastic F'''ing place to work.