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What is your choice for the best action for a .222 or .223. I was recently fondling a Vixen at a local gun shop and I have to say I am in love. It made me wonder though if the Riihamaki was any better, these are hard to come by in Montana btw so I can't compare myself. Also my Browning in .223 wssm has a stock geometry that seems very close to the factory vixen. So is a Browning SSA a cheaper substitute for the vixen given your experience. The action definitely isn't as smooth but time and polishing might fix that. Is there another action that would be comparable? "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | ||
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To my mind there is only one real choice and that's the Sako L461 or AI (Vixen) action. You won't be disppointed! Lou **************** NRA Life Benefactor Member | |||
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I agree with Dr. Lou. The rifle sold under the name "Vixen" is really built on an "L461" action - or possibly its successor and close relative, the "A1". There is VERY little difference between an L461 and an A1: the bolt shroud was closed on the A1, and the extractor is a bit wider. Other than that, I can't detect any differences. My L461 is smoother than my A1s, but whether that comes from useage, I don't know (bought them all second hand). The rifles often listed under the name Riihimaki are L46 actions - the predecessor to the L461. In my opinion, the L46 is NOT as desirable an action as the L461/A1. The L46 has a detachable magazine, which, apart from possibly loosing the mag, almost precludes an L46 to be chambered in calibers such as .223 or .222 Rem Mag. I'm also not crazy about the way the bolt shroud (with shroud mounted safety) looks on the L46. The trigger is different than the L461/A1, and I always thought the L46 trigger guard looked a lot like a cheap stamp-job... To me it is the L461 or the A1! Btw the name "Riihimaki" is just the location of the Sako factory. If you are looking for the ULTIMATE in accuracy, one of the bench rest type actions (Borden, Stiller, Nesika etc) might be a better bet. They can be had in single shot, which stiffens up the action quite a bit. The very best after market triggers (Jewell etc) are available for these actions, and they are probably a touch above the (factory) Sako actions in terms of dimensional integrity. I have not found these actions to be as smooth as an L461, though. - mike P.S. somebody is selling this little gem on Gunsamerica right now... No, it is not cheap, but it looks like a sweet little rifle... Letiecq Custom L461 ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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I had a factory SAKO 223 sporter [skinny barre] on the Vixen action. I shot the barrel out over several years of prairie dog hunting in Wyoming. I had Shilen rebarrel it and it shoots better than ever. Since I have gone over to the Blaser r 93 for my bolt rifle I now have one of those in 223. My brother has the SAKO. It is a very slick action. Never any feeding, or ejection problems. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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In its class, the Sako L461 has to be the Valedictorian. The A-I is essentially the same action and I like it as well. I have only recently acquired my first L46, and while I like most of the features of the L461 better, it is also a fine little action with a trigger that is like cracking a tiny glass tube. Mine has the old style left hand wing safety, a nice feature to my thinking. The later S491 has a larger diameter action and is somewhat heavier than its predecessors. I think the same is true of the M75-I. The Kimber of Oregon 84 was a nice action, and very nearly a peer of the Sako. All I have tried were rather stiff, but I assume that they loosen up with a bit of usage. The Zastava "Mini Mauser", (Interarms, Chas Daly, now Remington 799) is a decent little action, but nothing like as smooth and refined as the Sako. The CZ 527 is a bit cluncky, with an enormous bolt root that requires very high scope mounting, a protruding magazine, and worst of all, a backwards safety. It has a great trigger, but its other shortcomings rule it out for a custom rifle. The small version of the Weatherby Mark V that used for the .224 Wby Mag is so rare as to be pointless to mention. I think that Krico may have had a nice mini action years ago. So did Anschutz, but I've recently seen a thread on it that appears it is a rather weak design. The current bolt action world badly needs a .223-sized quality action. Even worse, we are in need of a .22 Hornet-Bee-Jet action properly sized for those tiny rounds. Cooper comes closest on both, but it is expensive and mostly available only in single shot. | |||
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Stonecreek wrote:
Ditto to Stonecreek's observation. I know your question was for "best." For utility grade, however, the little Interarms Mini-Mauser certainly warrants consideration. It is not nearly as refined as the L461 but certainly does the job. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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I am actually looking for the ultimate walking varmint/predator rifle. As I said before I fell in love with the Vixen I was lucky enough to hold. I was just wondering if any other (super)short actions out there that were held in higher regard. I am not looking for a benchrest rifle at all. Anything under 1" MOA at 200 yards will work for me. Do all factory Sako Vixen rifle stocks have the palm swell? "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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In that case, the L461/Vixen would be an excellent choice. It the factory trigger does not suit you, there is the Timney, which is rumoured to be safely adjustable to about 1 lbs (factory guarantees 1.5 lbs). Sadly, the Timney safety requires some work, unless you are happy to remove a big chunk of the stock... All the Sako Vixen and Hunter stocks I have handled with the Monte Carlo comb have had the palm swell. That thing is just such an endearing feature!! It makes the stock fit me like a glove - in fact so well, I have the Sako rear stock copied for my custom stocks... I'm not sure the Sako "Classic" stock (straight comb) had the palmswell - somebody else might help here?? I've never seen a Vixen with a Classic stock, though?? I bought an L461 in .222 Rem with a heavy barrel (Garcia era gun...) on Gunbroker just the other week. I may have paid more than what you US guys are prepared to pay, but at least the guns are available... There are L461 and A1s out there with a Sako target trigger. They usually come at a premium, and are getting pretty hard to find. You can tell the target trigger from the two holes in the trigger guard, and the trigger shoe sits further forward in the trigger guard compared to the regular trigger. The Sako target trigger is safely adjustable to just above one lbs. Nice trigger. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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The classic doesn't have the palm swell. I've seen one 222 on a classic stock - very rare I think. | |||
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In the U.S., only the late Stoeger imports and afterward came with a palm swell. The "palm swell" stocks can be identified by a rounded rather than somewhat angular fore end. Everything imported by Firearms International, Garcia, and about the first half of Stoeger's imports will be without the palm swell. I personally don't care for the palm swell, but it is certainly a matter of taste. I can contend that I have better taste than you do, but my good taste and $4.00 will buy your choice of a cup of coffee at Starbucks or a gallon of unleaded (if you act quickly, that is). | |||
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Good stuff guys, you are the reason AR has a bunch to offer! - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Could somebody explain the pre Garcia thing to me. Is there a general bias one way or the other? "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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Amen brother, they feel so good you don't want to put them down.
I am looking to spend about a grand. I figure that is what it would take to get a nice one. Hopefully by the end of summer I will be able to swing it. "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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Others will be able to tell you the "whole truth" (see also below), but until such time, I think the story goes something like this... At one point in time, the "Garcia" company (the fishing people) became the US importer for Sako. It transpires Garcia initiated changes in the Sako product lineup which are generally considered to have been for the worse. I have seen references to all sorts of supposed changes (and gripes), but it is kind of hard to get a handle on what is fact and what is fiction. I have heard a claim action sizes were changed. I'm somewhat sceptical about this. At least some of the Garcia guns were shipped with components which existed in the pre-Garcia era - e.g. L461 actions. Secondly, even when Stoeger became the importer of Sako, they were selling "Ax" (e.g. A1) actions, and at least in that action, there is no size difference I'm aware of compared to the L461. I have heard claims of poor "Garcia era" barrels. Not sure whether this is the truth?? The one place where it seems obvious (to me) that changes were made concerns the stocks. Garcia era stocks are somewhat more angular than Sako stocks I have seen from other periods. But then again, stock styles seem to change over time with most rifle manufacturers, so I'm not quite sure what to make of this. All in all, some changes were probably made. Whether it was the wholesale cheapening of the Sako production line it is often made up to be, I'm not sure. In any event, "pre-Garcia" is often used as a marketing item. I'm sure it has relevance to Sako collectors, I'm not in a position to verify whether the changes are of great relevance to shooters?? I had stored this post (probably from AR - no longer sure) on my local machine. I hope the original poster will not mind my reposting this. I added a few paragraphs, something the original post was a bit short on... The post sheds light on the various US importers and owners of the Sako company, and also deals with the (perceived) quality of Garcia era Sakos. Please note, I have no way of verifying whether the claims made are the truth or not.
Regarding current second hand Sako prices: Being from outside the US, I only see the part of the used gun market taking place on the Internet - i.e. I have no access to gunshows, pawn brokers, used gun racks etc. The figure of about $1K for an L461 in good condition is not out of the question - at least not on the Internet. Give or take a few hundred $$$, that is the range in which the guns are advertized. Whether one could be had cheaper via other channels, I can't really answer. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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I bought a Kimber of Oregon M84 barreled action years ago. I rebarreled with a Kreiger and chambered it in .223 and made a stock for it. I rate the actions as "OK." Mine was stiff when I got it and I figured it would loosen up with a little use. Never has. I am toying with the idea of reworking the action, but it is waaaaay down on my priority list right now. Maybe one day I will get around to it - but in truth I doubt it!  The little 461 Sako would be my choice if I were to sink that much time into another small bore "walking around" light weight varmint rifle. BTW-Sakos are no longer made in Riihimaki. I am told they do have a nice firearms museum there, but I have not been to it. I used to go through Riihimaki all the time and kick myself for never taking the time to visit. Oh well, maybe I will go back to Finland one day. | |||
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I'm somewhat in disagreement with Verhoositz take on Garcia Sakos. First, let me state that I am a pre-Garcia enthusiast and comb the corners of the Earth looking for well-preserved pre-Garcias. I do, however, own and shoot several Sakos imported between 1972 and 1978 by Garcia (and a few even later from Stoeger). In terms of average accuracy, the Garcias may have the edge. This is generally because they have a slighly heavier barrel, one of the big differences in "pre" and post. The barrel steel and manufacture are exactly the same -- the famed "Bofors Steel" mark being nothing other than a mark, one which was dropped about 1969-70 due, I have been told, to the objections of the company in neighboring Sweden who actually owned the name. The stocks differ mainly in the Garcias being slightly beefier, with thicker grips and heavier foreends. The comb height was increase a bit, also. The stocks were also generally of better quality wood than "pre's", particularly in the Deluxe. Prior to Garcia, many of the stocks on the Deluxes were of very plain wood. The quality control of the checkering also improved. A few "pre's" had truly amatuerish checkering. The luster of the bluing was dulled a bit on the standard model Garcias, but the high luster of the Deluxe models remained. There were other changes like adopting sling studs for QD swivels instead of fixed swivels, and dropping the third or "safety" lug at the rear of the L61R bolt. Mike is justified in his skepticism of Garcias being "larger" actions. All of the L461's, L579's and L61R's maintained identical dimensions, as did the similar A-I, A-II, A-III, and A-V actions. When the changeover to the S-series occured, I believe that the Vixen action (L-491) grew in diameter and weight. This may be where the erroneous reference comes in. Most of the guns imported by Garcia were very nice guns. The Garcia Model 72 (not to be confused with the P72, a rimfire/Hornet action) was a "stripped down" bargain model. Curiously, they went to the expense to add a rear open sight, the first that Sako had offered in many years. The Model 72 was soon replaced by the Super 74, which was for all intents and purposes a return to the pre-Garcia standard grade sporter except for the polish of the blue and the barrel/stock contours. I've never encountered any problem with the varnish (polyurethane, I believe) on any of them, pre or post. Some of the oldest Sakos do show finish checking, much like many older Brownings. The "pre" recoil pads were famous for disintegrating. Some went squishy and others simply crumbled. This was due to inconsistent chemical curing by whomever the subcontractor. Later pads usually held up fairly well. Fortunately, most of my pre's have recoil pads that are holding up reasonably well. | |||
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How do you determine a Garcia from a pre Garcia? Are the Garcia era Sako's actually marked Garcia somewhere on the action? "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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I don't know when this regulation was put into place, but I believe guns currently imported into the US must show the importing company's name. The Stoeger imported Sakos (post-Garcia) I have handled have all been marked as such - more often than not under the barrel. I don't know if this is the case for the Garcia imported guns as well?? From verhoositz' post, it sounds like the Garcia period runs something like "late 60'es" - 1974. With that in hand, there is always the serial numbers to compare. There are several sources for checking serial numbers against manufacturing dates: - the Sako factory, at least they answered me when I wrote them an email about my first L461. Address is on their website http://www.sako.fi/ - there is a book called something like "Arma Fennica" (excuse my inadequate Finnish spelling). It can be bought on the Net, but I can't find the link to the site right now. I has been discussed in here, so maybe a judicious use of the search facility might turn up something... (See below for excerpt of serial numbers from a "remarkably similar" book). - there is a Sako Collectors Club on http://groups.msn.com/SakoCollectorsClub/_homepage.msnw?&pps=k. - there is AR....  . Use the search function, and you might find a bunch of stuff.I just happened across a post by AR member "XXX", who had been kind enough to provide an overview of some of the Sako serial numbers out of the "YYY" book. I had stored this post locally, and hope XXX won't mind my reposting... (The true poster's name is known to me, but he was worried about copyright issues, and so chose not to post this publicly. In the name of international shooter cooperation, I think it would be a pity if this information would not be available to Sako lovers all over the Internet  ).
- mike P.S. I might have found the website for purchasing the Arma Fennica book?? Sadly the website (like the book) is in Finnish, so I'm not quite how to make it work... http://www.riistamaa.fi/cat/product_details.php?p=1415 ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Only some Firearms International (c. 1946-1972) imported rifles were so marked. The etching was on the underside of the barrel just in front of the forearm. To my knowledge, all Garcia (c. 1972-1978) and Stoeger (c. 1979-1999?) had the import marked etched on the underside of the barrel (except for Mannlichers, which were on the upper side of the barrel as to be visible). There was no importers mark on the actions of rifles imported as finished products; I believe that bare actions did have the importer's mark. Often you will hear that if a rifle has no import mark that it was brought into the country by a returning serviceman who purchased it in Europe (most popularly at a base in Germany). While it is true that these individually imported guns will have no importer's mark, many (most) of the FI guns did not have the mark either, as they came in prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968. The lack of an importer's mark merely indicates that the gun is either pre-1968 or imported by an individual. I have been told that some FI rifles had the import mark, but it was further to the rear on the underside of the barrel and thus covered by the forearm. I have not personally seen an example of this. | |||
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Another vote for the L461...  Cheers, Dave. Aut Inveniam Viam aut Faciam. | |||
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This auction has some interesting pictures of a Garcia imported, heavy barreled L461 in .222 Rem. In particular, note the importer's mark under the barrel... http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8638797 - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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That baby is sweet! An excellent example of what to look for on the barrel. "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." -- General George S. Patton | |||
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George, Did you ever find a .222 Rem?? I just came across this one, and was wondering if you might still be in the market for a Sako?? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104617464 There is not a lot of technical information about the rifle, but it is an A1 action, and that is basically the same as the L461. Barrel looks medium heavy. I have a barrel in that contour and consider it an excellent compromise. Anyway, just in case... - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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If you need Arma Fennica books (they are mostly written in finnish but some chapters also in english) why not try to contact the editor directly. I would think that he is more than happy to sell you a copy. editor: timo.hyytinen (at) armafennica.fi | |||
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The Remington model 7 is a great action for the .222 or .223. I have a stainless model 7 that was originally chambered in .223 until I shot out the barrel. I had it rebarreled to .222 Rem. and like it even more. The 7 makes a great light weight predator rifle. It weighs 6 1/2 lbs with scope. I also like pairing up a Remington cartridge with a Remington action. Another thing I like about the Seven is that there is a good selection of aftermarket parts, such as scope mounts and stocks. | |||
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I'll put my $0.02 in for the L461 or AI action. Here's a pic of an L461 single-shot action, that I've since built into a 17-222 PD rifle. BTW, nearly all of my F.I. L461 actions show the importer acid etched on the right side of the receiver, below the ejection port. Hope this helps.... Kevin [IMG]http://outcast.homeunix.org/uploads/SakoL461SSaction.jpg [/IMG] | |||
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Kevin, There was a space too much in your picture URL, thus it did not display. Here is the picture:  First single shot L461 I see - I have 2 single shot A1s, though. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Thanks Mike! Yep....the single-shot AI PPC actions are nice.....and truly solid bottom actions. I've two of them also....a 22PPC and a 6mmPPC. The 6PPC will become a 20PPC PD rifle, when I get the stuff together. Kevin | |||
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I'm trying to fit the serial number from the L461 action pictured above with the serial number/production year schedule even further above and I can't seem get the two to fit. The serial number on the action appears to have 6 digits when the schedule appears limited to 5-digit serial numbers. Am I reading something wrong? | |||
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