I'm in the market for a new gopher gun but just don't know which direction to go. My situation is not one of SPORT shooting and trying to take 300 yd shots. Its basically one of taking the short ones with a .22 and needing something for the 75 to 150 yd shots. Talking extermination not sport. I have several irrigated fields that are full of them. We took roughly 12,000 from the area last year and probably left 60% of them untouched.

I've thought of getting a .222 as I have lots of brass or a .223 Rem. Any of the 24 or 26 inch HB varminter would do fine. Either cartridge would probably be loaded more for accuracy than velocity. I intend to load DOWN for barrel life.
I have also thought of a .22 Hornet but have never really done well with Hornets. Finicky, hard on brass, but I do have a set of K Hornet dies. Had the thought of a Browning A-Bolt. (any input there?)

All I need is enough accuracy to do 1" or less at 150 yds. Don't need 3000 fps, just enough to kill a gopher at 150 yds. Plus I'd like something that with proper barrel cleaning and cool downs will maintain accuracy for thousands of rounds.

FN in MT

Are there requirements like noise or richochets? You don't mention them so it seems that loading down the .223 is the default cartridge not that I like that one.

Have you run the cost of loading a .223 light vrs a 17 HMR or a .22 RF Mag?

That's a lot of shooting. Loading thousands of .223's might get tedius but economy factory loads are available.

For rodent control I have found that poison works best but I would rather shoot them of course.

As an afterthought the .22 LR in a match rifle is accurate in light wind way past 100 yds! What with the range finders available today and a elevation correction it would get a shot in there.

To add that I would have to see the situation and the wind but a Anshutz light match rifle (suitable for a junior also) or their sporter in .22 LR with match ammo would be far more accurate than many imagine.

[ 02-16-2003, 21:07: Message edited by: Savage99 ]

Frank:I saw your post about gophers being up I wish they were here havent seen a single one.I guess its the difference in elevation its about 5600 ft where I live.I shoot most of mine with a 10-22 but my long range gopher outfit is a rem.700 LTR in 223 w/4x12 leupold and I think its perfect 20 inch fluted heavy barrel is handy shooting out of a truck or shooting prone on bi-pod and its not so heavy to be a problem walking.w/regards

My Kimber 82 with a 10X Leupold is murder out to 100+ yds, When its NOT windy. Problem IS its windy about 75% of the time. Richochets are NOT a problem as we are generally shooting towards some 1000' hills. Noise isn't a factor either.

I tried a .22 RF mag a dozen years ago, another Kimber 82. Accuracy was dissapointing, despite trying all sorts of ammo. Has the ammo or the guns gotten better? The .17 intrigues me but what about that 17 grain bullet in the wind??

What about the .22 K Hornet?? Would it be feasible to load them in a dillon 550?? I'm thinking K Hornet as it should end the case stretch and easier loading shouldn't it?? I did like my old Anschutz Hornet other than case stretch and lackluster accuracy. The ballistics of a Hornet with 40's or 45 grain slugs is about what I'm looking for.

Probably 75% of my shooting is handled by the rimfires I just need something for the longer shots or for windy days.

FN

Gopher Shooter,

We are at 4200' and your right, you guys are just a bit TOO high this early in the season. years ago I used to make the trip over to White Sulphur and Ringling to shoot gophers a few times each Spring and Summer. Spent a few bad nights at the Ringling Bar!!! Wow the killed brain cells. Now I'm older and smarter!

[ 02-16-2003, 21:39: Message edited by: Frank Nowakowski ]

Frank;I have raised an elbow at Ringling as well.The bar is now called JTs and they have a gopher shooting derby every year its sometime in May.I think the winner gets like $500 or so.
I was up your way last memorial day out at Sieben Livestock they had some new alfalfa seedings and they were alive w/gophers we shot for hours and didnt make a dent in them they put out some treated oats the next week to get rid off them.w/regards

Down here in Orygun we have the same species of ground squirrel as you do there. We call them sage rats, picket pins or gophers. I shot them up at Sunburst MT. A couple of years ago also. I used a Remington 597 semi-auto in .22 magnum. It shoots MOA with what it likes. I like the extended range the .22 magnum gives you over the .22lr. It also is less prone to wind drift.
Barrel steels and ammunition have come a long way in 12 years.
I also used a Hornet and .223 on the gophers. I think if you got a Hornet and K'd it using Lil-Gun powder and 40 gr V-Max or Nosler BT's you can get 3000 FPS easy.
What I really want to get is a .19 Calhoon. I'm sure both of you are aware of James Calhoon from Havre. I like the idea of no recoil so you can see your bullet hit and the speed and ballistics of the .19 caliber. It gives you about 100 yds more range than a Hornet and hits like a .223. Using about 1/3 the powder. Here is Calhoon's website in case you don't have it. www.jamescalhoon.com/

Frank,
You know the answer to this one... The .223 is the answer... CZ has tree versions of their 527 Fox that would fit the bill and not be too expensive. They have a 24" sporter (like the one I have in .222), they have a cute little 18 1/2" barreled carbine and they are now makeing a heavy barreled varmiter. These new CZs have excellent fit and finish and are reasonably priced. They also have controlled round feeding and set trigger. CZ has apparently backed off from their distributor program and it is my understanding that dealers can now buy direct again.
Or, Ruger makes some interesting rifles for a good bit more money.
The Bearman
(also known to you as Bill S.)

Tough to beat the 223,despite my great love for the K-Hornet.

The initial savings in utilizing those inexpensive 223 hulls and their longer life,would soon negate the propellant cost differences betwixt the two. Also numerous bulk 223 specific propellants for cheap and that further greases the skids,before one even thinks about weighing the performance differences,which of course is another feather in the 223's cap.

Brass is 10-$20 per 1000,powder is 6-8$ per lb and bullets cost what they cost,depending upon your preference but I much like the bulk R/R 50gr SP's for high volume and a guy can find 'em for $50 or so per 1000.

The Dillon 550-B is my preferred platform for assembly and it of course yields an excellent end product.

I think for the loot the 700 VLS is a tough one to beat,when talking specific rifles..............

When I was a kid, back on the farm in ND, we'd have alot of problems with gophers. Doesn't sound like we had the amount that you do. One thing we did was to concentrate hunting when the young ones first started to show above ground. Young, stupid and curious, they made easy, close range targets with the 410. If you did it right, it was possible to get as many as 5 per shot. Not sporting, but effective.

CAL9

Frank: I know what you mean with the Gopher situation - year before last I shot 4,000 rounds out of my 3 Ruger 10/22's at the hordes of Ground Squirrels where I Hunt. I went back through there the next spring and it was as if I had been cloning the little Varmints not harvesting them! I did not even make a dent in them! Your distances and wind conditions are exactly what I deal with myself when shooting Gophers! One of my shooting partners goes with this solution. Cast bullets in 222's and 223's! This keeps him away from the Gunsmith and those expensive rebarreling projects! I have never cast a centerfire bullet in my life but know lots of guys that do. It is labor intensive! I breathed so many lead fumes when I was a kid and did not know better that I fear doing it anymore for health reasons! I made lead cast balls for my slingshots for 6 or 8 years and even made some attractive but not very functional lead knives!
I just hate to wear my centerfire barrels out on the Ground Squirrels! So I mostly use the afore mentioned 10/22's and a 22 Magnum. One of my custom Ruger 10/22's has a Lilja barrel on it and I am positive it has 10,000 rounds through it but still shoots as well as ever! I do not know but maybe you can not wear out a 22 LR barrel?
Thats my best suggestion for now and the 150 yard+ shots on Gophers - 222 with cast bullets! I was just talking to a skookum (Indian word for smart, savy) counter man at the Sportsmans Surplus store in Missoula, Montana and he raves about the 17 HMR and its performance out to 175 yards on Gophers. He used one last season and relayed how happy he was with it! Let me do some figuring here - if he had a 4,000 round season that would come to... ahhh... $800.00 in 17 HMR ammo costs! Hmmm... I do not know if that is a solution for you there either. Have a good season!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I use .22LR for close range when the gophers are from 10 to 60 or 70 yds. Beyond this I like to use the Hornet. Mine is a Ruger 77/22H chambered to K-Hornet. My idea of using the K-H was to eliminate brass stretch but it didn't work at first. I could only get 4 or 5 reloads before the brass split. I ended up sending 5 fired brass and my dies to RCBS to be refitted. I have reloaded 10 times now with no indication of stretch or splitting. I have one spare mag. to carry for when your in a rush to get in an extra shot before you can reload the empty mag. You can also carry about double the amount of ammo compared to .222 or .223 . The Hornet is quieter to use and fills the distance to 175 yd. without hold-over. I use a Weaver 2-7x .22 scope and find this quite ideal for the caliber and it's intended use. I like using the .222 and .223 also but the Hornet is my ideal gopher gun and enjoyable to use. Have fun whatever you use.

where's all the .17 hmr shooters at? i thought this would be ideal for this task, but nobody has mentioned it yet. also, how about the .221 fireball,low recoil,long barrel life and very accurate.

Hey Frank, how are you? Did you make it to Reno this year?

I went through the same search last year for ground squirrels in eastern Oregon. We had been using .22 rimfires in tricked out Ruger 10/22's and have good success out to 120 or so even with a wind if it is consistent. Last year Howard took his new .22 hornet CZ and I used his Mountain Research .223. We both had a ball with those rifles. The long shots got somewhat monotonous at times. I talked him out of the .223 for a stock on his CZ. I have since picked up almost a 6000 rounds of brass for the .223 on ebay for very little money. Proble is not in loading it with a Dillon 550 but in trimming and chamfering the case, grrrr. I have an electric lyman but it is slow. Am leaning towards a Gracey trimmer which does the same thing at once.

I have gotten the MR to shoot consistenly under a 1/2" for 5 shots. AFTER i found out it had a 1 in 14 twist. Doesnt do as well with 55's. Likes 50's and 52's and does well with bergers ($) but likes sierra HP boat tail match bullets also and they are much better for my pocket book.

Any room back there for some visitors to shoot those critters? Might be looking for a break this spring.

Frank... you would be well served with a 22k-hornet. Yes you can load them in a 550. An easy way to obtain this rifle is through a CZ. Or take a look at a Cooper, they are very serious rifles for the money.
The 17 HRM will be but dead in a couple more years.

Frank at those ranges the 17 may work for you we have been playing with it down here for the last few months,and it works great so far,and now that a few other ammo companys are gearing up it will be around for awhile. I don't see it going the route like the 5mm remington. We bought two of the CZ's and they are just flat shooting fun.

Gentleman,

I appreciate all the feedback. I love a quest like this!!
I'm leaniing a few ways here........ CZ and rechamber to K Hornet. OR .... .17 HRM/ .22 WMR in a good bolt gun.......... or just getting a .223 HB Varmint gun and loading it down a bit for barrel life.

Then the real wild card... doing a .19 from Calhoon on a CZ.

I have info on the way from CZ, Cooper Arms, Legacy Rifles,etc. I need to think on this a bit!!

FN in MT

Think Savage in 223 I have several and have shot several others. They do shoot under .5 with any good 224 bullet. All they need is a new triggerm My favorite load uses surplus wcc844 and 52gr serrias cheap powder last stuff I brought was $7.05 a lbs shipped to my door.

Frank,

I talked to Lance at Herdershots in Maryland just the other day (Thursday). He has a Cooper 38 Varminter in .19 Calhoon. I was looking for the same rifle, only in .17 Ackley Hornet, so I passed. But one day I want one in 19 too!

His price was SRP from the Cooper website, plus $100 bucks for the .19 caliber...per Cooper. Phone is 301-678-6869. Those Coopers are sweet rifles.

Anyway, I shoot the .22 Hornet on chizzlers here (probably the same thing as gophers), and it works great out to about 200 yards...little noise, little recoil, and a whole bunch o' fun!!! Also looking to "K" another Hornet, but haven't gotten around to it yet!

In my opinion, any of the Hornet based cartridges will serve you perfectly!

The 17Hummer is a hoot to shoot,no doubt about it. But for serious Vermin dispatch,I believe the 223 stands alone. It will shoot a higher BC bullet,faster and cheaper,while still being easy on barrels. Them is good things.

I'm not cussing the Hummer,as a pard has one and it really is fun. But for rolling my sleeves up and inflicting serious carnage,I couldn't reach past a heavy barreled 223 to grab a Hummer instead of.

I love the K-Hornet and think I have 5 of them currently. However,I see it is a more of a niche rifle and in order for it to excell,one must shoot more expensive projectiles(my opinion,of course). The baby V-Max(last of the 33's),being my hands down favorite,though pards like the 30gr Calhoon. She hasn't the muscle to really shine with the plethora of bulk bullets in the 50gr+ weights,to keep projectile costs down.

Regardless of how precise the chambering job is and how perfect die geometry is,there remains an inherent constant in the Hornet. It's brass is much thinner and frail than the 223 in general,mil-surp stuff in particular. The Hornet's life is shorter.

In the 223,you can have your cake and eat it too. I like the mil-surp brass,have had very good results with both LC and WCC hulls and assuming sane loads,they live forever(especially in 223AI configuration).

If I was battling winds on the average and at ranges to 200yds,I'd grab the 223 and every time.

But hell,that's me..............

Frank,
What a lovely dilema you are in! I shoot about 6000 WW powerpoints a year at the little buggers. However, for the early season stuff I have settled on the small centerfires. As even these guns get hot due to the frequency of firing, I seldom head out without at least three rifles to cycle thru. Usualy a 223 or two (or three,) I have a Ruger 77VT in 22 PPC that I treat like a red-headed step-child, but boy does it shoot, so that sees a lot of action this time of year. It is also nice to have a Bee (#1) and/or a K-hornet. The new Fireball will also get into the starting rotation. Most of the shooting we do early in the season is from a stationary location, over the hood of the truck.

I am really a huge fan of the processed 223 brass available from RVO and Scharf. I buy the processed and primed stuff for about $65/1000 and it is addicting. I can fill up a mess of 223s with 748 and 50 Vmaxes in a heartbeat.

Later in the spring when we start driving around the fields the centerfires take a back seat and I shoot Powerpoints thru my 1710, older Kimber 82 and a worked over 10/22. Still do some Hornet/Bee/Mach IV during this period as well.

Come May when the younin's are out, the 10/22 and M41 S&W see a lot of service. Sometimes we even revert to a scattergun if they get real dense.

Long-winded answer, but the bottom line for me is heat build-up. Thats why I have settled on the 223 and smaller cases. A Swift or 22-250 just ends up spending too much time on the toolbox cooling off. Additionally, it is real hard to see the moment of impact with the larger 22 centerfires. I get a lot more enjoyment out of watching a squirrel take a 35 Vmax out of a K-hornet or Bee then a 55 BT out of a Swift, as you can see the whole process as opposed to just catching some chunks falling.

The 50 Vmax works great for me, they shoot great out of all my 22 CFs and really pop when they encounter organic material. Have not tried the 35 Vmax out of anything beyond the K-hornet and Bee, where they are really really impressive on littel light-skinned (or feathered) critters.

Daveinmt.

Hell, I am getting all worked up, any idea what the weather is supposed to be like this weekend?

Daveinmt

Frank: Somebody mentioned the .221 Fireball. It would seem to fill your bill perfectly and is currently available in the Remington 700 Classic.

I have a K-Hornet, and it's great for the shooting you describe, but the previous owner probably spent $6-800 on making it shoot (which I very much appreciate). That little .221 Rem should come out of the box ready to shoot up a storm.

How about the 221 necked down to 20cal. I think that is the 20 Var Tag. I think with the wind this would be the best choice for the distance described and cheap to shoot and an easy wildcat to make. The K-hornet would do a fine job I would think though.

Frank,
Please don't take this as being too forward, but i'm sure there are a lot guys out here that would love to help you with this problem. I know this means you having to open up to people coming onto your property and that may not be your wishes. But i'm sure with the right type of screening and controls, things could be worked out. I'd would bring my hornet, 222, 243, & 308 to let you try them as much as you wanted while solving your predicament. Just a thought. Like another thread said maybe a fee is inorder also.
MBK

Hoo boy, little varmint at <200 yds.? I've never had an application for the .17 HMR but if there ever was one i think you've found it. U ever take kids shooting? I have A LOT and the .17's are IT.

Frank,

Tell you what - tell me where to be and I'll meet you amongst the gophers with a .17HMR, a 223 or two, some 22-250s, et al and we'll conduct some 'speriments! Howzat? Talk about inviting myself!

Seriously, here at 3600 feet, we haven't seen a one yet this year.

VarmintGuy - same offer!

Redial

A message to the "interested" shooters,

The idea of a few of us getting together to pop several hundred of these buggers in a day is appealing. There would be a few rules of conduct though. None are extreme, basically just common sense and good manners. Currently it is 5 degrees and snowing though, so it will have to be another weekend. I am 40 miles north of Helena right off I-15 at CRAIG.

I have looked into a Cooper Varminter and if I can find one in either .221 Fireball or .222 Rem I'll buy it. Need to move a shotgun and a few other assorted items first. Theres a spring gun show in Bozeman March 21-23 and that will probably be the time to see whats available and make a final decision.

A Cooper with a 12X Leupold ought to be THE ticket I think. A .17 HMR doesn't appeal as ammo is over Ten buck$ a box. I'd just as soon load my own,hence the Fireball or triple deuce idea.



FN

Frank,

Just a thought, the 17HMR in a marlin new in the box will cost you around $249. and then there is glass. If you buy ammo by the brick its alot cheaper and you will be plesantly suprised with its ability to perform out to 200. However if you have big wind most of the time and are not afraid to hand load maybe think of the Tact20, its a barn burner that flatlines. 1" high at 100= 7/8" low at 300. if you want more info before you make your decision let me know.

smote the yote
Slydog