barrel would you put on a customized mauser, what length, what caliber and why???



to be used mostly as a deer hunting rifle (back up) or a loaner to newbie's so light recoil is a +



Dave

If you reload...257 Roberts! 22" Low recoil, great deer caliber!

OK, how about options for reloaders and non-reloaders...

I have both a .257 Roberts and a .25-06 and like them both.
I have actually been fond of the Roberts for a long time. For deer there is good factory ammo available but I think the Hornady is the best available for a non-handloader.

I have re-loaded for both and see little difference. The .25-06 is more of a hotrod but they are really close to the same. I'm now loading 75gr. hp's for the Roberts to take the place of a recently departed .22-250.

If I were to build one I'd get .257 based on the WSM case first, maybe a .257 Durham Jet or .257 DGR depending on circumstances. At this level you're really splitting hairs! BUT it's fun!

I have a custom small ring mauser, with an all weight of 8lb including 6x42 Leupold, in 250 Savage that has taken many red deer. Loaded with 90gn Sierra Game Kings, I have never needed a second shot inside 200m.

Slightly heavier at 9.5lbs with 4-10x Pecar scope, I have a 1949 FN rifle in 257R AI that can extend the effective range on deer by 100m.

I have both a 257 Ackley and a 257 Roberts.
I am a little partial to my 257 Ackley, mainly because it is a pretty little Winchester Featherweight, and is one of the only guns I have taken new out of my store because it was so cute and factory chambered in this wildcat cartridge.
I was searching through my reamers today looking for one for a rechamber job and came across a 25/284 reamer.
I cannot remember doing a job with this but it got me wondering about what a real rocketship this cartridge must be.
As far as barrels go, Shilen is the only brand for me.
Don't be fooled by other brands that say Air-Guaged (ahem... DOUGLAS...cough), as this is testing technique, not a manufacturing process.
Shilen is the only company out there that stands behind thier product enough to send out a spec sheet telling you what the internal dimensions are of your barrel.
Shilen will NOT send out a barrel that flares, only those that are parallel or choke a little bit at the muzzle.
The only thing Douglas does when you pay alot extra to have them Air-Guage it is they take a random barrel off of the pile of mass produced stuff they have and guage it.
To what specs?? Who knows, all they tell you is that they Air-Guaged it for you, and to me that means nothing.
I would go with a #2 Contour, or what Shilen calls a 'Lightweight' as opposed to their #1 'Featherweight' which is really skinny.
Hopefully you can get a competent gunsmith like me in your area to put together a nice little package for you.
Good Luck.

-Spencer

www.cliffsgunsmithing.com

Because you are are using a Mauser I would go with the 257 Roberts or a 25/06. First chioce the 257R- why? because generally a "loaner" is borrowed to a first time hunter and the Roberts has more than enough punch for killing the deer with less muzzle blast and recoil than the bigger faster 25/06.

Generally I won't get involved in an argument over who makes the best barrel, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I personally have built rifles with Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Lilja, K&P, Kreiger, Lothar Walther and Pac Nor barrels. Every single one of these barrel makers will provide me with a 100% warranty of their product- if they didn't I would'nt use their product. There are many other good custom barrel makers I haven't mentioned because I have not used their product. What I am trying to say in a nice way is I disagree with the poster on Shilen barrels being the "only" barrel. I have used many Douglas barrels and I didn't realize I have been so lucky to get so many that shoot as well as they do.

22" # 2





www.duanesguns.com

Duane--I am no big fan of the Douglas tube as some have heard from me.

Here are my thoughts, if it is going to the casual shooter that doesn't shoot a lot (which is a huge % of the world I'd guess) then it may just work fine.

Now, if it is going to the demanding shooter Id say keep on a looking. My experience with them has been as follows. The last 3 tubes that I had twisted on all had a life like this.

*--in the first 100 to 150 rounds they shot quite poorly

*--then they shoot quite well for a while

*--and lastly they (that being all 3 of them) choked and puked in and around the 1000 round range. End of story adn time for a new tube......

Now, I have a few friends that have them on casual use rifle and they like them. There again these guys and those rifles are not being used/shot much.

I do believe that one of the most important things to keep in mind when talking about tubes is how they have a tendency to perform throughout their life. I know of way too many people that say this or that tube performs like this or that and the fact is they've only seen part of their life.

Oh, and when I spoke to the fella at Douglas about the problems I was having (trying to give him the benefit of doubt in that maybe just maybe they had a bad batch of 25 and 7 barrels), his comment was something to the effect that he'd burned out a STW tube within 75 rounds so big deal and tough tookies!! I was really offended by the fellas remarks, he had no customer service or phone etiquette (spl?. I am a big time firm believer in the idea that repeat business is the way to make money in business and that fella burned me off of Douglas tubes for the rest of my life. Customer service is not rocket science! When just a bit of listening and people skills on his part would of gone a long way. True story, he doesn't know me from Adam nor how I take care of a rifle or how I shoot it, But, that does not allow for his poor poor way of working with a customer concern/complaint.


Just food for thought.

Tubes, kind of like Fords and Chevy's to some extent (to some extent I feel)

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Oy, one more thing I am with Duane about going with the plain old 257 R for what you are trying to do.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Mausers are made for X57, 25x57=257. but I'd go with a 7x57 or 6.5x55. my $.02, capt david

A big reason for the barrel 'warming up and shooting bad' is another of Douglas' excellent quality control processes.
If a barrel gets too hot during the manufacturing process, it will warp. These barrels will come off the line, and Douglas will pound them back straight while the barrel is cold.
Well, once the barrel gets hot again it will warp back.
I'm not saying Shilen is the ONLY barrel, they are just what I have always used, been consistent, accurate and solid, as opposed to some other brands I was less than happy with.

-Spencer

I have a M98 with a Douglas .257 Roberts 22" in a featherweight profile. It's very accurate, and doesn't walk shot's when hot. Get the Roberts it's excellent for deer or varmit's.

Hey guys I am not saying they shot poorly when they warmed up, heck any tube is succeptable to that.

I am saying that they shot out extremely quickly, in say the 1000 round range.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

hmmmm, suprising the 257 roberts seems to be the favorite behind the 25 06. I kinda thought the 25 06 would be 1st choice due to greater range/distance and more available factory ammo. does the 257 roberts tolerate a thinner/light weight barrel?

thanks for the replies.

dave

Mark- I guess I am basing my opinion on the 63 Douglas barrels I have put for my self and my customers, I have a Douglas XX on my 250 Sav and it has fired 3450 rounds to date, with 2500+ being at PDs- with 75 grain V-max it will still shoot under.75 MOA and the good groups will be under.5, the last PD trip it accounted for many a critter between 350 and 400 yards. I find on the 22/243 Middlested that I see no significant difference between brands. I have Never talked to anybody at Douglas with the flipant attitude of the fellow you described, but if I did I would talk to his boss, and if that didn't help I would feel the same way you do and they would lose a good customer. Like I said in my first post I usually don't like to get involved in the classic "Ford or Chevy" type discussion. My shop policy is to use products from suppliers who have treated me fairly and given good service, and Douglas has done that for me. I use barrels from Shilen and others for the same reason.


www.duanesguns.com

My Roberts has a pretty thin barrel and shoots as well as any production rifle. I have used it for coyote hunting with 75gr. hp's and deer with 100gr. and heavier. It's no slouch and has a mild report compared to some. I bought my wife a .308 and she'd rather shoot the Roberts any day.

For a loaner a mild round thats fired from an accurate rifle will give the shooter confidence. For deer sized animals it's plenty potent enough and with good bullets is capable of black bear.

My opinion hasn't changed much from when I decided to buy it to now. Only now I know more about it and have proof that it's effective!

I'd go for the .257Bob, as it happens to be a favorite. If you feel like you need more "punch", then the .25-06 is nice. As for a barrel, Shilen, Douglas, Pac-Nor,on the low price side, Lija, Kriger upscale. Heck, if it's a loaner, you might even get lucky with an A&B from Midway. I have used the A&B barrels on cheaper guns, and some of them shoot very well indeed, although admittedly it's a crap shoot. As for length, with the Bob I like small, lightweight rifles, so I'd go between 20"-22" max, with a lightweight profile. Probably 22" minimum for the .25-06, though, "just because"...

If you roll your own, go for the Roberts over the 25-06 - it fits the magazine better, is milder to shoot (less muzzle blast, less recoil), and how often are you really going to be able to take advantage of the extra range of the 25-06.

Now before anyone jumps on me - I used the 25-06 for years, and now own a 270, so I'm accustomed to the recoil/noise issues. Recently borrowed a Roberts (built on a yugo 48 action), and I was mighty impressed. My son recently suggested that we need 'something between the 223 and 270, and my immediate reponse was the Roberts.

FWIW

Duane, Of those 63 tubes how many of them have you observed from beginning to end? I'd guess not many,and my point is that not many people really get after it and shoot their rifles. So, a tube mnay seem great to some but they also may not be much in the long run either.

It would be intersting to talk to the owners and the shooters of those tubes. Personally number do not impress me at all, quality does. I'd guess that a lot of those tubes went out to the casual shooter, yeah he loads a bit but in the real world of shooting and such he isn't a real player. He knows the talk but he doesn't spend much time walking the talk. This is just an observation about the shooting world. There is a ton load of people out there that can talk, but not many that actually do. You and I see them and talk to them every day.

I have a couple of friends that have Douglas tubes on their rifles and they like them. However, I also know the kind of casual shooter they are. They do not get after it enough to ever burn out a tube. And so, they are happy with what they are driving. Honestly I suspect that the Douglas tube goes on many a rifle for this kind of casual shooter. Probably not a lot of serious long range shooters out there nor serious benchers using them would be my guess. A quick look in the back of Pre Shooting would most likely bear this out.

It sounds like that one of yours has been wonderful and I am very happy for you. I do also know this in life there is always exceptions (in many ways). Now I could say that about the 3 bad tubes that I had, it could be that they were exceptions, personally I think not, but you never know.

As to the person I talked to on the phone,honestly I do not remember his name. If I recall right he sounded a bit older and he ID'd himself as the owner. He had a lot of arrogance and ignorance when it came to customer service. He had a big time problem with the concept of listening to his customer. And I found him very abrasive and I will not do business with him again! His attitude was that his product wa the best and I knew jack *****.

In short Duane, I am not trying to keep an ongoing debate with you about Douglas tubes. I am just trying to kind of keep what I feel is the record straight about Doulgas tubes (at least in my opinion). Now I don't know if that makes any sense or not. Guess I am trying to be respectful of you and your business (although I don't know you and have never met or heard of you b4), but am also sticking up to the facts of what I know of the attitude of the people out of the Douglas shop (based on my conversation with them) and also about my experiences with the quality or lack therof.

Have an awesome week by the way.

I am gonna be traveling accross your state at the end of August on the way to Minnesota. Where is your shop (town), and how close is it to the interstate? Perhaps I could stop in and we can cuss and discuss the shooting world.

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

Mark- My shop is only 5 miles south of I94, about 1/2 way between Bismarck and Jamestown- a small stop called Tappen. I would welcome the chance to meet with you and continue or discussion in person. Most of my customers come back for repeat work, so I do get to see many of the barrels I install from new to scrap, and as I said in my post the "hot rods" seem to wear all brands out at about the same number of rounds. One thing I will say though is some barrels just wear smooth, and others don't look all that bad, but they start tearing bullets up or the velocity needs to be reduced in order to keep on shooting. I have a piece of a Hart barrel that was a 222mag that you can barely see some smooth "bumps" where the rifling used to be, and it was still shooting around 1"!(14000 rounds).
Give a shout when you pass this way, maybe we can have that discussion.


www.duanesguns.com

I'll be driving down the road in your area sometime on the last Monday in August (29th perhaps) I'll have to get your phone number and see if we can get a quick minute or two with you and some relief from the road.



C-Ya





"GET TO THE HILL"



Dogz



ps I'd like to discuss with you about a round you like I can't quite remember what you call it but it is a 257 DGR I believe. I think it may just work out great for the wife for all comers out here in this country. Just don't ask me to do it with a Douglas tube ok........grins

Do enjoy the discusion on barrels, but I must say that over many years I've bought some very accurate rifles from a number people who are critical of, and run down the barrel supplier.
The REAL PROBLEM was basically the owner can't shoot straight!

Back to the 25's, one of the sweetest hunting rifles that I've seen for a recoil sensitive lady was a 6mmBR/25.

Mark R. Dobrenski: I am a happy Douglas barrel owner but the two custom Rifles I have with Douglas barrels on them are not a big enough sample to make any sweeping conclusions from! I am sorry your 3 Douglas barrels petered out after some time!
Might I inquire further of you in the use and cleaning of those barrels? Are you confident you cared for them properly? Did they get overheated at some or several points in your use of them? Were they on Varmint Rifles or sporter weights?
I have a close friend out in the Puget Sound area of Washington state that really feels the Douglas barrels are a good value for the money. He is a custom Riflesmith and has built I am sure 700 to 1,000 Rifles over the decades he has been in business using the Douglas barrels. At any one time he had 50 - 60 Douglas barrels in stock! He has a lot of repeat customers! Again I am not arguing your point at all I am just always gathering knowledge and experiences from other like minded folks as I am.
One of my Douglas barrelled Rifles is an old Model 70 Winchester action (made in the factory the same month I was born - July 1947) that my Riflesmith friend added a 25" medium weight Douglas barrel to in caliber 280 Remington! This Rifle is and has been very accurate and the barrel is easy to clean. I might have 500 rounds through it so far though and have as yet to notice any diminishment in accuracy. The next 500 rounds though may just last me the rest of my life! It is only shot anymore for yearly sight verification and at Big Game so 15 - 20 rounds a year that should be 25 years of use at least and I hope to live maybe 10 more years! So that Douglas barrel will probably be a "lifer" for me so to speak!
Anyway I appreciate your experiences being posted and the shiver that went up my spine when I read your posting has now subsided.
Did you use any harsh chemicals on those Douglas barrels? Did the throats show excessive wear or anything noticeable in the innards of the barrels?
Thanks in advance for any additional info.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

On a Mauser the .257Rob. is a classic choice. I have had great luck w/ PacNor lately. My gunsmith used only Douglas until he started putting some PacNor rifles togehter for me. He now recommends PacNor to his other clients looking for a custom or rebarrel. Customer service is good & the barrels fin. inside is very good for the money.

I will second Fred on Pac-Nor. They are less expensive by about 50-60 bucks than Hart, Lilja or Shilen. They are great to deal with. They will chamber your barrel so that you will not have to buy a reamer. I just had one installed. The smith borescoped it. He said it was excellent. It was here when they said it would be. Even after we got our wires crossed on the countor. They call and double check with you when The blank is ready to go. I get really good results with a 25-06 the recoil is about as much as my 280 and 30-06. Atleast I can not tell the difference. You could load some light varmit bullets for practice and go with hot 100-120grains for killing. On a mauser I would probably go with the Bob because they are both classics. Pac-Nor for sure over Douglas or ER. Shaw

Hey VG good to hear from you (seems to me you have some kids in the football age is that right? are they getting ready to gt back to school? or do I have you mixed up with another Beaverhead)

Yeah I understand cleaning, barrel break in, barrel heat up (I even put a thermom in the tube at the range and owuld to find some of those temp strips for the barrel) so I feel that these tubes were used in the same manner as other companies. They just up and puked at an early age and I didn't like the attitude of the guy from Douglas. I am not gonna take that kind of attitude from anyone, let alone someone I have to pay to get it from!

The tubes were in the 23 to 25" range and in the .67 to .7 at the muzzle range. So, they were not full race fat barrels and they were no skinny minny's either. That is the weight I like to hunt and shoot with. I use these rifles a pretty darn fair much shooting chucks and yotes and rocks all year round and then in the fall for the freezer. The round were the 25/06 and the 7 Mashburn Super (2).

I shoot those rifles quite a bit and 500 rounds in a year is not a big deal for me to put through them and often quite a bit more. So, I've been thru enough tubes to have some understanding of this game, and how a tube is gonna be effected by use. ( I think I've been thru something like 17 tubes over the years not sure as I haven't had my morning Joe yet if you know what I mean)

I've no doubt that your friend/smith has gone thru a lot of the tubes. I mean for years from what I could tell it seemed that about everyone used them. Then I think that over the last few years that some other tube makers came on the market that will sell you a tube for not a whole lot more but are in my opinion for the serious shooter/user a lot better tube for the money.

Now I would agree with you that for the rifle that is gonna see only say a box or two of shells a year that it is gonna be a good long term tube.

But for the tube that is gonna see some use and some serious use at that then I feel from my time around them (and from the buddy's that tired this as well) that for the money there is much better values out there.

Just my thoughts on said subject.

Have a great day!

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dogz

ps I saw your deal on the snow in July I remember back in the late 70's when we got a fair bit of snow on the 4th of July. Now that was an interesting day for chucking!