I'm considering getting a 25/45 I think the number is; the .223 case necked up to .257. This would be on an AR platform and the desire is to keep as much as possible the same as the .223; so not going the larger diameter cases. the main purpose would be for small big game such as deer within 150 yards.

I'm wondering if there would be a significant difference between bullets such as the Nosler bonded 63 grain .224 bullet and several 75-80 grain controlled expansion bullets for .257 with regard to game performance.

Anyone with experience with one or the other, I welcome your experiences.

I’ve shot several deer with a .223 using 60gr partitions and 55gr Barnes X bullets.
I’ve watched several shot with a 6X45 with 85gr Game Kings and there was a substantial difference in performance.

I believe the 25/45 would be a winner too.

I have a Sako L-461 custom rifle I built in caliber 6x45 and with 75 gr Barnes, 80 grs GS Customs its killed many deer for me and my daughter, sons, grandson..all one shot quick kills...

I played and hunted with a 257X45 with light Speer bullets in a sako pistol made by the late Tony Barnes along with his 308x45..

They all worked, but I think the 6x45 was the best or at least my favorite..Longest shot I made with it was about 200 yards..

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I'm considering getting a 25/45 I think the number is; the .223 case necked up to .257. This would be on an AR platform and the desire is to keep as much as possible the same as the .223; so not going the larger diameter cases. the main purpose would be for small big game such as deer within 150 yards.

I'm wondering if there would be a significant difference between bullets such as the Nosler bonded 63 grain .224 bullet and several 75-80 grain controlled expansion bullets for .257 with regard to game performance.

Anyone with experience with one or the other, I welcome your experiences.

When "Gasgunner" John Holliger and son came to hog hunt with us they brought the 22-45 with them. I would check with him at White Oak Armament and get his opinion.

If you're considering a dedicated AR hunting upper you might give consideration to either the 6.8X43 or 6.5 Grendel. The only extra it would add is dedicated magazines. Either one would be a step up in case capacity. No experience with the Grendel, but I've taken several deer and a number of hogs with the 6.8, I assume the Grendel would provide similar results.

In 2017 I had great results with the 6x45 and Sierra 85 grain bullets on 3 whitetails. Shots ranges from 120 yards to 315 yards, 2 dropped at the shot, one hunched up and made about 30 feet before tipping over.
I can only imagine the 25/45 would be similar in effect on deer.
This year I used an AR in 7.62x39 on 2 whitetails, results were good.
The truth is decent bullets and decent shooting kill deer, caliber is fairly irrelevant.

While I don't have any experience with them on an AR platform, I' have a couple of 6x45s and a 6 TCU.

I run 100 grain Nosler Partitions thru one of the 6x45s, 100 Hornadys thru the other. Deer, turkey, hogs...all fall over without complaint. If pressed to settle on a "one rifle for Texas hunting", this would be my choice (with a 200 yard limit on the deer). I expect that a 25/45 would be just as flexible.

The 6 TCU was a Contender carbine barrel that I ultimately chopped back to handgun length; it eats 85 grain Barnes Xs.

Good luck!

Mark

I was intrigued by the cartridge, and thought about potentially getting one. While searching for it, I came across this article that made me question whether or not I really wanted to fork the money for an upper in caliber that didn't provide me with any additional performance over what I had.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com...-worst-new-ar-round/

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I'm considering getting a 25/45 I think the number is; the .223 case necked up to .257. This would be on an AR platform and the desire is to keep as much as possible the same as the .223; so not going the larger diameter cases. the main purpose would be for small big game such as deer within 150 yards.

I'm wondering if there would be a significant difference between bullets such as the Nosler bonded 63 grain .224 bullet and several 75-80 grain controlled expansion bullets for .257 with regard to game performance.

Anyone with experience with one or the other, I welcome your experiences.

Ray,
I’ve got quite a bit of experance with the 223, 22-250, on deer and two black bear. I,d say the recovery wouldn’t really be any different in terms of how far they run but the ultimate penetration might go to the 25-45 using specific bullets. Having said that I have got 20” of penetration with an exit with a Barnes 62 gr TTSX, and about the same with a 75 gr Swift Scircco. Most deer I’ve shot with the 223 have dropped within 30 yards. This year I shot a big Doe at 80 yards broadside with a Hornady 55 gr sp. She ran a little over a 100 yards. Double lung, no exit skin stretched out with the bullet on the far side, lungs were mush. Had a nearly identical shot years ago with a 338 which blew a fist size hole through the deer, it ran just as far.


You live in WA? I think big game can be only taken with a 6mm or above right? I’d prob make a 6x45 or 25-45 myself.

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:
I’ve shot several deer with a .223 using 60gr partitions and 55gr Barnes X bullets.
I’ve watched several shot with a 6X45 with 85gr Game Kings and there was a substantial difference in performance.

I believe the 25/45 would be a winner too.

What was the “substantial difference in performance”?

quote:

Originally posted by RandyB:
Hey Butch, you sure got me thinking about that 22-45!

What is a 22-45? Is it just a .223? What m I missing? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by RandyB:
Hey Butch, you sure got me thinking about that 22-45!

What is a 22-45? Is it just a .223? What m I missing? roger

I had a stiff drink before posting that. It was the 25-45.
Sorryu

Use a plain old vanilla 55 grain cup and core place in right spot and deer will take a full half minute to die in an extreme case. Take the whizz bang premium bullet and place it in the right spot and it will only take up to 30 seconds. That's the significant difference.

I am putting together a 25-45 ar-15 as we speak. The only real problem I have with the round is that you are generally limited to flat based bullets less then 90gr. If you are o.k. with that then have at it. The 6x45 and the .277 wolverine are also fine choices if you want to stick with the standard BCG. Since shot placement trumps bullet diameter I don't know that you will see a big difference with a fast twist .223 vs. .25 cal bullets. My wife uses 50gr CEB raptors in her .223 and it kills deer just fine.

This year I built a 25-45 on a Remington 700, Lawson Thumbhole stock. I had a 223 action for a while but really didn't want a 223. Was thinking 6mm-223 but went with the 25-45 because proper headstamp brass is available, just in case I take it abroad. The ammunition I loaded is all on 223 brass, way cheaper if lost while hunting.
Have not shot it yet.

M

carpetman1, In your post you said the 55gr c&c bullet takes up to half a minute to die the premium bullet up to 30 seconds to die. By my clock half a minute is 30 seconds. Don't see the significant difference in performance.
Leo

quote:

carpetman1, In your post you said the 55gr c&c bullet takes up to half a minute to die the premium bullet up to 30 seconds to die. By my clock half a minute is 30 seconds. Don't see the significant difference in performance.
Leo

Leo---that's my point--you got it.

Some don't get humor.
But you guys are killing me with all the talk of shooting big game with 22 cals or even small 25 cals. It is not legal here, and I wouldn't use one if I could.
Must read more Elmer today.....
Bigger is always better. No hate mail please; (yes believe it or not, I get it).
I know every AR member shoots moose with .17s at 300 yards.
Many guys I know and see, should use something with a bit more room for error because their ability to shoot, is often lacking. As in, they can't shoot. At least half of them I see at the range.

dpcd---several years ago, I thought the same---a .22 centerfire not big enough. After seeing it done by several youths (grandson, nephews etc) I learned my thinking was faulty. Shot placement is the key. If a small caliber wont work, explain to me how something lives with their, lungs, liver or heart shot out--in some cases a combination of those organs. Doesn't seem to be from my experience a case of how big it's all a case of where. A bad shot with a small cal is a bad shot. A bad shot with a big magnum--well it's a bad shot too. Results about the same. A magnum does not increase the size of the kill zone.

All the .223/5.56 variants have been around for a LONG time... JD Jones started the fad back in the 80's with the TCU cartridges...which are nothing more than .223 cases bumped up to whatever caliber you want... The 300 blackout, for example is ballistic-ally identical to a .30 TCU.

What makes these cartridges very limited in their capabilities is powder capacity. On its best day a .223 case will hold 25 grain of water. Stick a big, long bullet in the case loaded to an OAL to feed in an AR magazine and its just not got the ooomph to do much work beyond 150 yards. Which is why the metallic banging handgun crowd pretty much abandoned them--they wouldn't knock over steel chickens at 200 yards! I owned a Contender in 7mm TCU and was underwhelmed with it. Cold barely get 1900 fps with a 120 gr bullet. Also....they all cold be fired in a Contender frame...which should tell you something as well.

The 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 Grendel are better for an AR if you want a real 300 yard deer killing capability in an AR15 platform. But again, the real limitation with both rounds is a short OAL length and limited powder capacity to around 30 grains. The 6.5 suffers from a real lack of velocity when you try and stuff it with the supposed mid and heavy "high BC" bullets which are supposed to be the cats meow....but in your typical 16" AR platform they are lucky to break 2100 fps... The 6.8 will do an honest 3,000 fps with a 90 grain bullet like an Accubond and a safe but near max load of AA2200. But realistically--both max out around 300 yards in terms of reliable deer stomper range.

NPCD,
Maybe you should shoot a few deer with a 223 or even a 222 before you make a decision..Ive shot and seen shot a lot of deer with both calibers, Ive culled sith the 222, 223,22-250 and 6x45 and found no fault in any of them..The best bullet Ive used in the 22s is the 60 gr. HOrnady SP or HP..I used them on the small Texas Hill country deer, coues deer and large Mule deer, as have my kids and grandkids..I would bet anyone that the 22s give a higher percentage of instant kills than any other caliber..and its a good thing because they seldom leave no blood trails when they do run..I don't use them because they are terrible about leaving huge amounts of blood shot meat everywhere..and that's the rest of the story.

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:
I’ve shot several deer with a .223 using 60gr partitions and 55gr Barnes X bullets.
I’ve watched several shot with a 6X45 with 85gr Game Kings and there was a substantial difference in performance.

I believe the 25/45 would be a winner too.

What was the “substantial difference in performance”?

Sorry for the delayed response.

Average distance traveled by deer I’ve shot with a .223 is about 50 yards. I’ve had a few DRT and a few that were well hit that required long tracking jobs of up to 400 yards. That is an average of a little over 100 deer that I’ve shot with a .223

Average distance traveled by deer my son has shot with his 6x45 is 4 yards. That is an average of 10 deer that he has shot with his 6x45. 1 went 10 yards, 1 went 30 yards, 8 were DRT

I’ll further qualify my opinion of the 6x45 being more efficient than the .223 by saying my sons sample size of 10 deer are from a child age 6 through 11 where is my kills with a .223 were all in my 20’s when I was in my prime and shot 10,000+ rounds a year in practice.

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:
I’ve shot several deer with a .223 using 60gr partitions and 55gr Barnes X bullets.
I’ve watched several shot with a 6X45 with 85gr Game Kings and there was a substantial difference in performance.

I believe the 25/45 would be a winner too.

What was the “substantial difference in performance”?

Sorry for the delayed response.

Average distance traveled by deer I’ve shot with a .223 is about 50 yards. I’ve had a few DRT and a few that were well hit that required long tracking jobs of up to 400 yards. That is an average of a little over 100 deer that I’ve shot with a .223

Average distance traveled by deer my son has shot with his 6x45 is 4 yards. That is an average of 10 deer that he has shot with his 6x45. 1 went 10 yards, 1 went 30 yards, 8 were DRT

I’ll further qualify my opinion of the 6x45 being more efficient than the .223 by saying my sons sample size of 10 deer are from a child age 6 through 11 where is my kills with a .223 were all in my 20’s when I was in my prime and shot 10,000+ rounds a year in practice.

Probability owes you nothing. This especially apparent in small sample sizes. Always wanted to fart around with a 6x45 or 25-45.

The 223, 222, 25-35 and 6x45 generally kill deer very quickly with a proper rib shot..The problem with these small calibers is twofold, one they dont' leave a good blood trail as a rule, so they should be used only in open country IMO, the other is they tend to blood shoot too much good meat...That said my experience with them has been a good deal, and we have never lost one..We generally cull with the light calibers..The kids and grandkids all started hunting with the 222, 223 and 6x45,,My grandson, now married with two kids and a rancher and cattle inspector has never shot a deer except with my 6x45, sees no need for anything more But he is in a position to pick and choose his shot, and is strictly a subsistence hunter, sez you can't eat horns....I can honestly say Ive had and seen more DRT deer shot with a 22-250 and the 60 gr. Hornady HP or SP for the most part, but with other bullets as well, than any other caliber..

SmallFry.
I live in Idaho..I use the 22s in Texas on Hill Country Whitetail culling operations only these days. still use the 6x45 on Antelope and deer in Idaho and Texas, and mostly the 250-3000 on Mule Deer.but I don't deny anyone to use a high velocity 22 on deer size game if the limit the range to 200 yards and under and on broadside shots..under these circumstance they work just fine..Keep shots off the shoulder..

I recently read wherein a gun scribe of some talent and experience stated he didn't believe that 22 bullet blew up on shoulder shots as he had never witnessed such...I have on two occasions, once on a Mule deer buck with a 222 and a factory pill, again on a Coues deer with a 223 and factory ammo..One was recovered the other Muley was not..that shoulder blade is tough stuff it seems, in both cases it blew out hide and meat the size of a saucer.