Tell us about elk or elk sized animals with 6.5 common rounds. 260, 6.5x55, 6.5 Creedmore or similar sized rounds. Especially penetration.
dmw

There is a myth that in Sweden the 6.5x55 can be used for their moose.A recent thread here explained that only SOME rounds are permitted and those are all 156-160 gr.
My question was will a premium [NP or Barnes ]140 perform as well .Someone answered yes, but it's not permitted.
So you could search for that thread and draw your own conclusions.

One of the guys hunting with me shot an eland bull at 350 yards with a 6.5x284. 140 grain Nosler Partition, broad side shot through heart/lung. Bullet recovered under skin on off side. One step and it fell on its nose.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
There is a myth that in Sweden the 6.5x55 can be used for their moose.A recent thread here explained that only SOME rounds are permitted and those are all 156-160 gr.
My question was will a premium [NP or Barnes ]140 perform as well .Someone answered yes, but it's not permitted.
So you could search for that thread and draw your own conclusions.

This is not correct.
There are shot thousands of Moose every year in Sweden and Norway with a .264 bullet. Most of them with the old 6.5x55.
The minimum bullet weight for hunting Moose in both Sweden and Norway with a .264 is 139 grain.

And these rules are overdue to be changed with some of the high quality premium bullets today in my opinion.
These new bullets have made the old 6.5x55 even more potent than it already was.

I know for sure that a 120 grain Swift A-Frame or a 120 grain Barnes TTSX bullet do the job well on Swedish and Norwegian Moose.

Even with hits on the shoulder on rather large bulls, these bullets either stop in the opposite shoulder or just under the skin of it.
With shots behind the shoulder, you will normally get two holes in the Moose.

150-160 grain old fashion cup and core bullets don't perform that well.

With a 140 grain Swift A-Frame or a Barnes 130 grain TSX bullet I would feel 100% confident on Elands and smaller.

To get the true potential of the 6.5x55, you either need to buy European made ammo(the American made are very anemic) or reload your own.

That previous thread didn't explain it that way. In any case my 6.5x55 was my deer [American white tailed] rifle for 25 years .I have very warm feelings toward it !
In the USA they have wimped it out so it should be handloaded and of course premium bullets would make it even better.

Lots of elk and moose are taken every year with cartridges less powerful than a 6.5 shooting a 140 grain Nosler Partition at 2600 fps or better. I've taken a couple of elk with a .264 Win using the 140 Partition at around 3,000 fps, and although I prefer something a bit heavier, that combination caused both elk to cease and desist about as quickly as any larger caliber I've used or seen used.

I wish Hornady still loaded the Light Magnum with the 129 bullet and Federal the 140 Partition. I am about to run out of each. I would not be afraid to take elk with either.

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
your own conclusions.

in my opinion.
These new bullets have made the old 6.5x55 even more potent than it already was.


150-160 grain old fashion cup and core bullets don't perform that well.

I really don't understand this statement or believe it for a minute. Punching through an animal isn't necessarily a measure of outstanding performance. At least I haven't found it to be true. the cup and core 156 to 160 grain bullets I've used have ALWAYS been meat getters. That holds true for the 6.5 Carcano. 6.5 X 55 and the 6.5 x .284. The 156 was a Barnes' original and the 160s were were Norma or Hornady's circa 1966. roger

The 6.5 or .256 bore as the British called it had quite a following back in the day.
I think this was for a couple of reasons.
I base my opinion on the older hunting books I have read.

First the 6.5/256 rifles were very handy, sleek, lightweight and easy to carry.
They had little recoil. The most popular bullets were long and heavy for calibre, usually 156/160gr in weight. Many times they were full patch bullets, ie solids, and gave great penetration. Velocities were low compaired to today, so even the SP bullets gave great penetration.

Fast foward to modern times to the Scandanavian countries, their Military calibre being the 6.5x55 and thus in wide use, and it still carries on the tradition of a long, heavy, calibre bullet, at moderate velocity, with excellent penetration.

Today a 7x57, 7mm/08, or 308, with a heavy for calibre bullet, would and has, done just as good.

Also remember that the early 6.5/256's made their reputation back when iron sights, and thus close range shots were the rule.

If you look at the History of hunting, most problems happen when a bullet, uszually light for calibre, is driven faster than it can hold together.

For many years the 30/06 was not regarded as good a killer on Big Game as the 30/40 Krag...

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Norwegianwoods:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
your own conclusions.

in my opinion.
These new bullets have made the old 6.5x55 even more potent than it already was.


150-160 grain old fashion cup and core bullets don't perform that well.

I really don't understand this statement or believe it for a minute. Punching through an animal isn't necessarily a measure of outstanding performance. At least I haven't found it to be true. the cup and core 156 to 160 grain bullets I've used have ALWAYS been meat getters. That holds true for the 6.5 Carcano. 6.5 X 55 and the 6.5 x .284. The 156 was a Barnes' original and the 160s were were Norma or Hornady's circa 1966. roger

I don't think it is crap to use heavy(155-160 grain) slow going cup&core bullets for Moose. It has worked for very many years here in Norway and Sweden.
And it works very much better than fast going light cup&core bullets.
I think the light cup&core bullets have much of the blame for why many regard the 6.5x55 to be to small for Elk and Moose.

I have used the 156 Lapua Mega(a modern cup&core) in my 6.5x55 for many years and it performs very well on deer and well on Moose.
But I think the modern lighter premium bullets work even better on Moose. Specially if you hit heavy bones on larger bulls.

I know some prefer the bullet to stay inside the animal to deliver maximum energy and damage, but I always prefer using a bullet that might deliver a bit more narrow wound channel, but insures better penetration.

I load the 140 Nosler Accubond in my 6.5-284 but have only taken deer and pronghorn with it. I don't doubt it would be fine on larger animals.

My favorite bullets for my 6.5x54 M/S before it was stolen were the 160 gr. Norma and Hornady round nose bullets. They'd penetrate a deer from A-hole to appetite if necessary and in some of the heavy cover I hunted in the rain forest of Northewest California, those shots were sometimes necessary.
I also like to 170/175 gr. round nose bullets at times in my 7x57 but sadly Sierra has dropped the 170 gr. RN and Hornady the 175 gr. RN. My rifles just don't shoot the 175 gr. spitzers all that well.
I'd be a hell of a lot happier if those two would at least do a "seasonal" run like Winchester does with certain less popular cartridges.
Paul B.

Thanks all.
dmw

Now that I have a bit of time to fill in the question; I have two reasons for asking. My son is currently 11 is outfitted with a 260 Rem. in the Ruger 77 and after using it with 140 Remington CL and 160 Hornady RN's on Deer, I have no doubt the 140 Nosler Partitions that I have stored away will kill an Elk just fine on anything other than a "Texas Heart shot" as they were called in CO back in the day. However with the source of information here, I felt that there might be several folks who have already ventured forth with gun and bullet on Elk. Second; I told a cousin of mine in CO the other day who is looking for a new Mule Deer gun, that I would like to have a Ruger 260 with a 26" barrel but since they don't make one of those that the 6.5 Creedmore sporter would be fine too. I then mentioned that it and a 140 Nosler Partition or Barnes 130 TSX would kill all the elk he wanted should he want to leave his 338 home for a day or two. Again, I figured some of you folks both here and in Africa could validate that for me.
Best regards,
dmw

Well I shot two bull elk with a 6.5 x 55 and with Norma 156 gr Alaska loads. This was back in the late 1980s. It was what I had at the time an when the opportunity to hunt elk came. Worked fine No problem at all. Thou both shots were under 200 yards. One of those elk was my most memorable stalk. I would think that these days a good hand load with a 120 gr Barnes X would perform as well if not better than that old norma load. And that load performs well.

I've shot several elk with a Rem Model 700 Classic in 6.5x55 Swedish. It has worked well. Everyone I have shot with it went all wobble legged and fell over.

That doesn't make the 6.5 any better or any worse that things like the 30-06, 7mm Mags, 300 Mags etc... but I do think that because it is so easy to shoot well due to mild recoil it often allows for better shot placement. People just semm to shoot the 6.5 calibers well.

Would the 6.5 be my top choice for elk, moose etc...? Nope it wouldn't. I'd rather have my 7mm Mag or my 9.3x62. But I wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk or moose with it if I had to or if I wanted too. Same could be said for my 6.5x54 MS.

Norwegian's closing line, in his first post, bears repetting:
To get the true potenial of the 6.55X55, you either need to buy European made ammo....or reload......
Norma's 156over2500fps and 140over2800fps is a step over the old Swede's military loading and pressure(46KCUP). But we're frequently advised not pushed these old guns, even though Norma and others developed their ammo on 96 actions and sells the said products to consumers with 96 type actions. Go figger

To make a noticeable difference over 6,5 or 308w(50y) in running distance of scandinavian moose studys show you to have to use a cal. bigger than 300wm like 9,*62(35y).

Why bother using these too small light cartridges on large animals when there are far better rounds available today.
The 6.5x55 is just a throw-back to the beginning of the smokeless era, the Scandinavians dumbed a whole bunch of surplus rifles chambered for this cartridge in the USA and told the American public, 'here boys this is the best round for hunting, sur we hunt moose with it in Scandinavia'.

What about all the game that is wounded and lost with this small round ?

The 30-06 and above are far better to use on big animals.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:
Why bother using these too small light cartridges on large animals when there are far better rounds available today.
The 6.5x55 is just a throw-back to the beginning of the smokeless era, the Scandinavians dumbed a whole bunch of surplus rifles chambered for this cartridge in the USA and told the American public, 'here boys this is the best round for hunting, sur we hunt moose with it in Scandinavia'.

What about all the game that is wounded and lost with this small round ?

The 30-06 and above are far better to use on big animals.

Joe

Mackey, Mackey, Mackey,

Have you bothered to read the post where the originator explained that he was asking because his son, who is 11 is wanting to hunt elk and has a 260 Rem. He was not specifically asking about the 6.5x55 but 6.5s in general for use on game of this size.

And, as to your asking about all the "wounded game" I distinctly remember when you had an entire post slamming the 6.5x55 yet you never once would actually give an example of it failing instead choosing to speak in generalities. The vast majority of the people that responded did not agree with you and I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not going to agree with you here either.

Many of us, myself included, stated that we had never had a problem with the cartridge. I'm willing to bet everything in my bank account that 99.9% of lost and wounded game is due to poor shot placement or using the wrong bullet for the game (too light or too soft etc...) and not the caliber itself. There isn't a game animal in the elk/moose size in the entire world that can survive a 6.5mm hole in the lungs. If you place the bullet right, it will work. If you place it wrong, it doesn't matter what the caliber is.

Is a 6.5mm cartridge the best choice for game like those mentioned? No it isn't. Will it work? Most definately. Would I take a kid after elk that shoots a 260 Rem? Yep, I sure would because I've got personal experience with both the 6.5x55 Swedish and the 6.5x54MS and I have seen how effective they can be.

Flags

Chief Sigs--I'd say you pretty much nailed it. A 6.5 is not suitable if you hit em in the wrong spot. What is? In the right spot have a good knife, you have an animal to dress out.

quote:

The 30-06 and above are far better to use on big animals.

Mackey
Did you ever check out the date the 30-06 was put into service?
The 9.3X62 was put on the market in 1905.
The .375 H&H in about 1912.

Cartridges are better when they've been proving themselves for 100 years or more !!

6.5x55, 45-70, 30-06 375H&H, 45acp and more - all winners !

Don't fall off your ponies boys !

If the small cased 6.5 etc. were so great then there would have been little need to develope bigger and more powerful cartridges for large game.

I didn't say the 6.5's will not kill, of course they will, like even smaller cartridges such as the 22/250 class.

My point is that they are not very versitile when compared to the larger cartridges, you all know on here what I am saying is true, bigger more powerful is better for large game.

Joe

mackey, how many animals have you shot with a 6.5?
And please tell us about all the game that is wounded and lost because they used a 6.5x55 instead of something bigger?
I guess 99.9% of them were lost because of crap shooting and/or crap bullets.

I have used both 6.5x55, 6.5-06, 308 and 30-06 for many years and have shot lots of animals with them. I have never experienced any difference in effect between them on animals from Roe deer to Moose.

This is also very much supported by the large Scandinavian Moose study Nordic2 referred to, where it was recorded thousands of Moose shot with different cartridges and what effect it had on the Moose and how far they ran after the shot before they hit the dirt.

It is the largest high quality study I know about in the world that have really looked into the real effect different cartridges have on wild animals.

It clearly shows that you need to go bigger than a 300 magnum to get a significant difference on Moose.

I prefer to use 9.3x62 or .375 on Moose and bigger, specially because I used to track wounded Moose with tracking dogs before and needed something for shots I would never take in a normal first shot hunting situation.

But during a normal Moose hunt, I think a 6.5 is as good as a 30-06 and I use a 6.5 with 100% confidence.

I don't mind recoil at all and shoot my 375 as well as my 6.5, but many hunters shoot better with a 6.5 than they do with a 30-06 or larger.

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:
I didn't say the 6.5's will not kill, of course they will, like even smaller cartridges such as the 22/250 class.

My point is that they are not very versitile when compared to the larger cartridges, you all know on here what I am saying is true, bigger more powerful is better for large game.

Joe

Mackey,

I don't believe a single person here would dispute the fact that something along the lines of a 30-06 and up would be a better choice for elk sized game. But, and this is a big but, the originator is not asking what is the best elk cartridge. He is asking about the performance of 6.5mm cartridges on elk sized game. And, he further explains his reason for asking when he later stated:

"My son is currently 11 is outfitted with a 260 Rem. in the Ruger 77 and after using it with 140 Remington CL and 160 Hornady RN's on Deer, I have no doubt the 140 Nosler Partitions that I have stored away will kill an Elk just fine on anything other than a "Texas Heart shot" as they were called in CO back in the day. However with the source of information here, I felt that there might be several folks who have already ventured forth with gun and bullet on Elk."

Note that he says his son is 11. He doesn't say how big his son is or how well he could handle the recoil of a 30-06/7mm Mag/300 Mag/338 Mag. He is merely asking if the rifle his son already shoots would be adequate for elk. He does not ask if it would be the best, only adequate. And he is asking for our personal experience with using the 6.5mm on elk. And I seem to remember that you have admitted that you have never shot an elk with any caliber, much less a 6.5mm.

My question to you is why you can not simply answer the man's question without going into your usual anti-6.5mm rant? You earlier claimed to have used the 6.5x55 for "years" in your native Ireland and that you used it to take "hundreds" of deer. If it was so bad then why did you continue to use it? And despite all your negative comments about the cartridge you never once gave a detailed account as to a single instance in which it actually failed. Rather, you spoke in generalities about game running 100 meters before falling or being recovered the following day. If the game was recovered, then the cartridge worked. If it was not recovered then you can not say for certain it was the cartridge's fault and not the shooter's fault for placing the bullet poorly. Many people are quick to blame the cartridge and caliber when in actuality it is the shooter that failed. I do not know if this is true in your case because as I have already stated you have refused to give specifics. You never have stated where you lost an animal to have someone else kill it later with healed wounds. That would be cartridge failure. Game running before dropping is not bullet failure. That is an animal fleeing on instinct as nature has programed it to do.

I've had deer and elk run 100 yards when shot in the lungs with a 375 H&H. Does that mean the 375 H&H is not an adequate round for deer or elk? Of course not. It is merely proof that game often reacts to a shot and flees from where they were hit even if the shot is fatal. And different animals react differently. One animal may drop without a twitch while the next may go on a flat out run for 200 yards even if shot with the same rifle and load in the same spot on the body. This is nothing unusual and it is not indicative of an inadequate round. It simple is what it is.

So, in keeping within the context of the originators reason for this topic, it must be acknowledged that the 6.5mm his son uses would be an adequate cartridge for elk. It would not be the best choice, but it is adequate (and legal) if he places a well designed bullet into the vital area. If he places his bullet in a non-vital area then it does not matter what caliber he is using. The cold hard fact of the matter is that a 30-06 will not kill an elk any deader than a 6.5mm will. There are not different levels of dead.

Flags

Thanks Chief for the well rounded answer. I have killed quite a few elk, all with three calibers. 30-06 accounted for a few, the .338 Win Mag for a few more and the .44 Mag. Model 29 that I happened to have at the time for one. All very dead. Never lost a one. I know a young lady back in the area of CO where I grew up that has killed 4 or 5 elk with her 6.5x55 Model 96that my best friend sporterized for her. She is a good shot and is careful. As you stated, I have no doubt the 140 Nosler in the boy's 260 will kill one dead if I do my part and get him up within about 200 yards so he can make a fine shot on him and he does his part by doing so. Thanks all for the asked for references on your usage of the 6.5 on Heavy game.
Best regards,
dmw

Fury01

Although not quite elk size, I've shot a lot of fallow and red deer with my 6.5x55 with 130 grain Nosler Accubond. Distances have varied between 50 and 300 yards and I haven't had any problems.

Given elk is bigger you could limit shooting to, say, 200 yards, but have a look at the ballistics and what kind of energy you are getting at different ranges.

If I was going for elk I'd probably bring something a little bigger to get more range and power. But, having said that, power is no substitute for good bullet placement.

The 260 is very pleasant to shoot and if your son is 11 years old he'll probably be more comfortable and more accurate with this caliber.

Happy hunting!

Christian

Thank you Christian. I appreciate the references on your fallow and Red Deer! They are helpful. I have found a mature bull elk to have very dense bone in the joints, legs and spine. Shoulder blades, not really much of a problem to penetrate but behind that thick Skin, muscle and on into the vital zone is still a punch to make. The 6.5 140 Nosler Partition is a very good bullet though for that type of shot at reasonable distances seems to be the common thought. Ribs are ribs but get into the paunch full of grass and that is another story. Up the rear to the vitals is quite another. I have only shot one that way but it was quite successful with the .338 Win Mag and a 300 grain Barnes .049 jacket that was not meant to expand. The shot exited the throat and I have never seen such a wide but short blood trail. Looked like paint poured out of a gallon can for about 30 yards. the animal was running when shot.
Thanks again,
dmw

I guess I'm like Baby Bear...I don't like extremes, neither cartridges that are too small to be reliable on elk, nor those which are bigger than reasonably required...both with due regard to the terrain being hunted.

For most of my elk shot for sport or for control purposes that has been either the .300 Weatherby (in Arizona) downloaded to somewhat more velocity than a .30-06, or the European 7x65R
equivalent of the .280 Remington (in Oregon).

I would not select the 6.5x55 as my own first choice, but when used as described above, I think it a great choice for a young lad learning to embrace the big herbivores into his possession.

If you put a bullet through an animals heart, lung or liver or combination thereof a few thousanths bullet diameter or a few hundred feet a second velocity isn't going to matter much. That animal is going to expire pretty close to where you shot it. I can't prove it, but my opinion as to how far that animal will travel has more to do with the animal itself than the rifle used. I've seen animals that were heavy hit, for lack of a better term that went a longer distance than some that were lighter hit. You never know till you pull the trigger.

Fury01,
When a mate and I hunted in Namibia almost 2yrs ago, his choice of rifle was a Sako finnlight in 6.5x55.
He took red hartebeest, oryx, kudu and a number of springbok with it. All were drt, all were well placed shots. He was running handloads pushing the 140gr Accubond.

I have no experience with elk, so I won't comment but the 260 is fully the equal of the Swede and both are very capable rounds in the hands of a good shot.

Looks like the Barnes 130gr. TSX was the penetration winner in this test done by bcsteve..

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com...62814&highlight=test

When any discussion comes up on the suitability of certain cartridges or calibres for big game such as this post, its answers always seem to gravitate to elk as though these are some mythically hard animal to put down. Obviously elk are the biggest deer animal in Nth America and I don't think there are any red deer there. We here in NZ have elk (we call wapiti) and these were introduced into an area called Fiordland in the south west of the South Island. They certainly proliferated living from sea level in the dense and rugged bush to the alpine tops. Many of our early hunters who shot wapiti for trophies or culled them as their population exploded spoke of them being a 'soft' animal to kill compared to our red deer. Most of these hunters used the 303 British and 7x57 in their day to shoot wapiti. The modern hunters use their normal deer hunting rifles, 7mm,308,30.06, 270, 243, the various 6.5s, etc and a few magnums thrown in for hunting wapiti. The 7mm-08 has become one of the best selling and most popular big game cartridges in NZ now for our species and it is the cartridge you will more often than not come across in the bush and on the mountain tops for taking every animal we have in NZ including our comparatively large and tough red deer.

So just how hard are these elk/wapiti to kill? Perhaps to those used to shooting nothing bigger than whitetail and the other deer species in Nth America, the elk is a big step up but why would it be harder to kill and need nothing short of bazookas with super premium bullets in the States when we happily knock them over with anything from the 243 and up usually with standard cup and cores.

In sweden there is a law to have access to a tracking dog within two ours after the shot. Most biggame hunting is made with dogs so its easy to find game if it walks 200m after a lungshot.

Thank you JohnFox for the Namibia reference and the 140 Accubond!
dmw

Eagle 27--Actually moose is the largest North American deer family member. Being bigger they hold more air, but a bullet through their lungs puts them down just like all the rest. They frequently will stand for awhile after being shot and then fall over. 30-06 and even smaller is plenty big, but many try to pass it off you need some sort of magnum. They don't wear kelvar and they don't read the internet as to what it should take.

While living in Grand Junction CO. a neighbor of mine use to pull mil. 06 150 grain bullets and replace them with Speer 150 grain cup and cores.Every year in the 50s , 60s and into the 70s he'd get at least one elk. He swore he never lost one.
Enlighten me. How would a 156 grain Norma bullet fired from a well loaded 6.5X55 compare to the ammo my neighbor was using? roger

Roger, why do I think you already know that the two would be similar, with a little edge going to the '06 in energy delivered.Best

Having actually shot a bunch of elk and seen lots shot and gotten even more first hand reports from other hunters and guides over the years the most important factor is:

#1 Shot Placement

Next comes something I call the "mood" of the elk. How much adrenaline is currently flowing in its system. If the animal is relaxed expect a DRT or very short track given good shot placement. If the animal is very cranked up, the only thing that will give you a down and out is a CNS hit. I once saw a very jacked-up calf elk take a 150gr NP through both lungs and still travel a good half mile, and it still required another round to put it down for good. Same load, same shot placement, two large (relaxed) bulls, they dropped so hard they bounced.

Old guide observation: The client has an old worn rifle he is comfortable with, caliber NOT important, the hunt will go smoothly. The client has a new ultra fast, nasty kicking magnum, don't expect the hunt to go well at all. Why? Please refer to #1.