Hi all,

I hate to do another "something" vs. "something" thread, but I already have a 22-250 and I am considering a 204 Ruger. I am thinking that the 204 will be a good stepping stone for my son from his 22. Am I correct in that thought? Also, I am thinking the 204 will make a better fox round than the 22-250. Yes or no?
Bottom line is, other than the fact that one can never have too many guns, should I buy a 204?

Thanks

Can anthing ever be a better fox round that a 22/250? I am inclined to doubt it.

Quite fancy a 20cal myself, but might do a Tac20 for the hell of it.

If you want it for yourself, and are using the son as an excuse to buy it, fair enough, if you really the want the rifle as a step up for the lad, I would go with a shortish barrelled 222 or 223rem.

As far as bullet weight/bullet weight goes, it would be better to compare a 223, ~30 gr H2O, with a 204, ~31 gr H2O, as the 22-250, ~46 gr H2O, has so much more potential it's almost like comparing a VW with a Miata.

I've had many 22-250's, presently and over the years, a few 22-243 Midd's, several 223's and I built a 20 Practical last year, and I'm doing a 220 Swift right now. I'm starting to get a little over gunned in the small cal department...

There is very little difference, bullet weight/bullet weight, between the 223 and the 204 or the 20 Practical, other than splitting hairs so thin as to almost make them disappear.

Probably the only reasons for my final decision to go with the Practical instead of the Ruger is the fact I have Redding Bushing dies and only required a new bushing and primer punch rod and a ton of 223 brass and it is so easy to make cases, otherwise I would have gone with the 204...factory ammo and brass and all that jazz.

I can drive a 32gr VM to 4200fs with 8208 in my Practical...maybe 4300fs in the 204, but get near 4600-4800 fs with a 30 gr Berger Match in my 22-250 and ~5100fs in my 22-243 all within safe pressure and case life expectancy limits.

I can drive a 40-45 gr bullet in the 22-250 as fast or faster, than I can drive a 32 gr bullet in a 204...so there ISN'T really any real comparison between the 204 and the 22-250...other than hair splitting again on the BC's.

All that being said I see no reason NOT to have a few 20 cals along with a couple of 17's and a bunch of 22 cals and on up the line.

I think it is MUCH easier and cheaper...and more PRACTICAL... ...to do the 20 Practical than the 20 Tactical.

But I also like the sharper shoulder of the Tac being an old wildcatter...in my case cheap won out and you would be hard pressed to see any difference in the Prac and the Tac in two "built" rifles as far as accuracy and velocity is concerned...but that just opens up the brawl for no good reason...pick the one YOU like and forget the rest.

A guy CAN'T have TOO many rifles in any one caliber...can he?

He** yes...buy a 204 rifle AND a pistol...that way you can keep on shooting while the others are cooling off.

Luck

As a step up from a .22 LR, I'd be very tempted to pick up a .222 Rem. I'm partial to the smallish .22 centerfires. I use a .22 Hornet for foxes and coyotes.

The question as to whether or not it's a better fox gun kind of comes down to whether or not you want to save the pelts... a .204 is probably less likely to exit, so you'll get less damage. I have personally gone with a round that exits but doesn't expand massively, that's why I like the .22 Hornet with 45 or 50 grain softpoints.

having a few 204's and 22/250's i would say to go buy one, but of course i say that about almost any new gun. in use i find the 204 doesn't blow up PD near as much as the 22/250, but it does so with less concussion. i guess i have harped on this before, but over the years of shooting a few thousand dogs i found that anything with a larger case capacity than the 222 mag would eventually give me a concussion headache by the end of the day. ear plugs & muffs only can do so much before the concussion goes through the bones in your head. i find i can shoot things like 223 all day with no problem, but soon as i move up to 22/250, swift, 243 etc. about 400 rds is max. bigger stuff like 25/06 take even less. the 204 is a pretty flat shooting round that can reach out and touch dogs at 400 or better. i have problems with 223 doing that distance with any regularity. no only that but i just got a hellova deal on 40 gr hornady vmax bullets at 75/1000

quote:

I am thinking the 204 will make a better fox round than the 22-250. Yes or no?

I like the 204 but I have not shot a coyote or fox with it so I don’t know if it’s as good a fur gun as the 17 Remington is. From what I see on Prairie Dogs, it’s about the same carnage as the 17 but it does it at longer distances. I think your son would love the 204, there’s very little recoil, and it bucks the wind better than a 17. IMO if you shoot foxes for fur, you need to go smaller than a 22, you’ll be happier with the results.

I own both and I really like the 204 with a 35 grain berger bullet. The 39 grain sierra blitzking 20 cal bullet fragments too easy on coyotes. There is almost no recoil to a 204 either.

As to what a rifle is "good for" depends on "what" you want it for...for fur a FMJ works, for pieces and parts, an fragmentary bullet works, and for extra long range a heavy, hig BC works much better than a light one.

Pick the right bullet, place it correctly and just about any shooter/caliber can take up to deer size game and beyond, depending on range...NOT that I advocate irresponsibility when it comes to picking the right rifle AND bullet for the game.

Those tiny 17-20 cal bullets seem to do things WAY outside what you would expect. I've plonked feral cats and dogs with all my small cals when out popping rats and all of them get turned inside out most of the time.

You won't have any problems with fox other than being careful WHICH bullet you use and where you place it...if you want fur.

Luck

Maybe I should clear up how I use a 17 Remington for coyotes, I shoot over a call, there are no long shots. If a coyote hangs up out beyond 75-100 yards I don’t take a shot (the 17 becomes marginal to inadequate beyond those ranges). I stop calling, let him forget about me and I move on for the day. If I have one of my 22s along then I really don’t care if he hangs up out at 200 yards, I can usually make the shot.

I don’t think the use of FMJs in cattle country is a good idea. Too much skip and they don’t always skip in the direction you want them too. You skip an FMJ and hit a breed cow, you’ll find yourself the center of attention of a pissed off rancher.

You're right Mick...most answers on forums are short and general and gentile...it only gets ugly when the answers become specific.

It is "circumstances and situations" that needs to be addressed by a hunter...NOT one specific scenario...any perceived problem can usually be solved fairly simpley like reducing the velocity on FMJ's and NOT shooting when the circumstances dictate. I think I've shot more 55gr FMJ's at rats than anything else. I got a zinger now and then, but probably no more than any other bullet other than a totally frangible varmint bullet...it all depends on the "circumstance".

I have a 17FB and a 17 Rem. I load one to ~4000 plus, 3/4" hi at 100 and the other to ~4500 plus, 1/2" hi at 100 yds...this gives a PBR of ~1" out to 250 yds and plenty of energy to take coyotes although I don't shoot them very often. They keep the rat/mouse population down and the fields clean of afterbirths during calving...and the ranchers take out any that become onerous. I also have a very nice load for Berger 30 gr varmint/match bullets that trucks along at ~4000 very nicely for my 17 Rem...It also has a PBR of 1" out to about 220 Yds. I've taken feral dogs out to ~300 yds without any problem,(yes I know about the energy/velocity/bullet drop/wind much beyond 300 yds) not to mention a couple of edible 4 legged critters...I carry a box just in case.

Not trying to get a whizzing contest going, eveyone has their own set of rules to follow, do what you feel is right and correct for you.

I have loosely set limits for my various rifles and stick to them pretty much. I just reach for the next size larger cal/case when one limit is reached.

One problem we do have now and then is feral dog packs and I shoot EVERY dog I see that doesn't belong here. There was an old "dog lady" that lived out here for a while...she went to the dog pound weekly and gathered up all the dogs she could and brought them out her. They were getting away all the time and a half wild, hungry dog isn't anything to mess with...this is the piney woods...we have to take care of our OWN problems as the sheriff is to busy elsewhere and the humane society won't come out this far.

"Circumstances and situations"...what life is all about.

Luck

Foobar, I wish I paid more attention in the writing classes I took in my youth. If I had, maybe my short posts wouldn’t sound so confrontational or angry because I’m not trying to be either one.

”Not trying to get a whizzing contest going”. I don’t think you and I have a problem. We’re just sharing experiences with others.

I know about feral dogs, I have trouble with them from time to time. I can’t shoot them, but I make them feel unwelcome on the property until they get killed by cars or starve to death. They can get very dangerous when they’re starving.

Me too...and no worries here mate,...I'm not very "politicaly correct" and tend to be more direct than is usually comfortable for most people in this day and age...not trying to be confrontational either...most of the time...a life time of dealing with the wrong side of, or dangerous things, jobs and places...I see things much different than the average person...not much distance between the quick and the dead, so to speak...plus I like to give back what someone has taught me or I have learned the hard way most of the time. I get wrapped up in thoughts and my fingers can't keep up.

This internet thing is totally awesomely great for the most part, but like everything else and everywhere else today, it is a total mess.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
They keep the rat/mouse population down and the fields clean of afterbirths during calving...Luck

That's funny... I've lived in ranch country all my life and I've never heard a concern about fields needing to be cleaned of afterbirths.

That's because nature takes an interest...magpies, crows, coyotes, rats, mice, bugs, bacteria and the CATTLE themselves, keep the "UNWANTED DETRITUS" cleaned up...otherwise it wouldn't take long before the fields would be so deep in SH** no grass could grow and no cattle, horses, ranchers and/OR everything else would disappear.

I don't think ANYONE walks around expressing an opinion about a "clean" field, especially a rancher, but if you bothered to look, they harrow and burn their fields every year or two...at least that's what's going on around here...it depends on the rancher. I've done enough driving around in circles mindlessly watching I don't overlap or miss my marks to last a lifetime.

Maybe you need to look more closely or more broadly...you never saw a momma cow or ANY placental animal, licking the birth sack off the infant and chewing up the afterbirth? It is full of good stuff(prostaglandin and oxytocin) that helps start the milk and shrink/clean out the uterus or at least that's what I've been told...or seen a coyote or two sneaking up grabbing a bite...or birds working the ground??...OR potguts eating their brothers and sisters I just sent to rat heaven??

Come on...I may not be a field worker now, but I have helped deliver a few breech and hard births on cattle and goats, spent way too much time on a tractor bucketseat prepping, "cleaning", planting, cutting, bailing and bucking hay and Sudan/vetch for the working horses and fixing sickle bars AND broken tractors and field tools...way back BSH(before sh** happened)...

"Clean" was a figure of speech...don't be getting all "literal" on me.

Luck

I wouldn't deter you from buying another rifle if that's your bent. But since this forum is named ACCURATE RELOADING and my first thought is anybody that comes here reloads his own ammo anyway, why can't you download some 22-250Rem ammo to mimic that of the 204?

I'm not shilling for Speer, but their reload manual always contains reduced load recipes.
10 grains of SR4759 behind a 50gr SP goes 1650fps. That's a soft recoiling load if ever there was one. Use a FMJ bullet for no pelt damage.

Even though I am also slightly biased being a 20 Tactical owner myself, I suggest seriously considering a 223 for a first centerfire for your son. It will shoot the same bullets as your 22-250 and there is a much larger 22 caliber selection than 20's. Performance wise you'll see no difference until your getting close to 300 yards anyway. Ammo will be easier and cheaper to buy off the shelf, and you can always rebarrel to a 20 later on if you want.

I have found the 204 Ruger, much like the 17HMR is a very good prairie dog and other small varmint cartridge. It gives you similar performance to the 22/250 with less blast and powder burned per shot. Would I use it as my 1st choice for fox and coyote? Not beyond 300 yards, but inside of that it is deadly on the larger varmits.

I watched ChopperGuy hit a prairie dog last summer at 607 yards with his 204 Ruger Dakota Predator, in a 20kt cross wind, it is clearly capable of matching the 22/250 out to 600 yards with standard bullets.

I have a 204 Kimber and my son has a Ruger 77 with a Steve Satern barrel, they are a hoot to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
"Clean" was a figure of speech...don't be getting all "literal" on me.
Luck

Literal or not, it was YOUR figure of speech, not mine or one I'm used to hearing. Just telling you...

quote:

I am thinking that the 204 will be a good stepping stone for my son from his 22.

All I can say here...is...get a .22 Hornet!

I've seen cows eat afterbirth. I've seen vultures try to eat calves before there was afterbirth..............whole different course for this thread to take..........main question....stepping stone rifles........the good vet suggests the Hornet. I say skip a step and opt for the 204 thereby "skipping a grade" in school. The 204 is so far ahead of the Hornet it's not even fair to compare! And noise level..............sharper crack but decibel level probably not much different. Effective range between the Hornet and the 204?............next hemisphere!! Recoil and "kid proofing"........None with either. If the 204 had been brought out 30 years ago there wouldn't be as many 22-250's out there!! AND I AM 22-250 fan!! No better all around varminter has ever emerged than a 22-250!!!! But the 204 out to 500yards is a force to be reckoned with!! Not NEAR the report of the 250. Recoil is so low that seeing the bullet hit the target is easy without losing sight picture and reloading for it is another + with the decreased powder and projectile cost...........what's not to love about the 204?? What's not to love about the Hornet? What's not to love about the 22-250? They are all effective. They all go "BANG"!! Buy one of all and have fun!! GHD

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
I've seen cows eat afterbirth. I've seen vultures try to eat calves before there was afterbirth..............whole different course for this thread to take..........main question....stepping stone rifles........the good vet suggests the Hornet. I say skip a step and opt for the 204 thereby "skipping a grade" in school. The 204 is so far ahead of the Hornet it's not even fair to compare! And noise level..............sharper crack but decibel level probably not much different. Effective range between the Hornet and the 204?............next hemisphere!! Recoil and "kid proofing"........None with either. If the 204 had been brought out 30 years ago there wouldn't be as many 22-250's out there!! AND I AM 22-250 fan!! No better all around varminter has ever emerged than a 22-250!!!! But the 204 out to 500yards is a force to be reckoned with!! Not NEAR the report of the 250. Recoil is so low that seeing the bullet hit the target is easy without losing sight picture and reloading for it is another + with the decreased powder and projectile cost...........what's not to love about the 204?? What's not to love about the Hornet? What's not to love about the 22-250? They are all effective. They all go "BANG"!! Buy one of all and have fun!! GHD

Yeah! What he said!!!

P.S. GHD
Ya forgot the generates way less heat and uses considerably less powder part for the .204, especially in colony rodent situations. Gotta have one a each.

I love my .204 as well.

As a kid...carrying my Savage 340 .22 hornet...those were the days.

Shoot a head off a squirrel, shoot turkeys, all sorts of varmints, bull-frogs...and a few deer and feral hogs.

.22 Hornet is just a great kid gun!!!