Does anyone have a dozen non-moly'ed .223 77 grain SMKs they'ed be willing to part with? In my desire to go to the 77 grainers, and moly, I ordered 500 of the moly 77s. However it would appear that I should chrony some naked ones to establish a velocity base line in comparison to the data, (which is all using plain jacketed bullets, no moly bullet data found to date). The 77 grainers aren't available in lots of 100, and I don't want to buy another 500 untill I've given them a try. So a handful to chrony would be most helpful. I'll happily pay something & the postage. BD

BD: I believe I moly'ed all of mine, but I will check my stock.
IMO, you could skip your concerns about baseline data w/nekkid 77's, and just use available data with the moly'ed 77's. I have never experienced anything unexpected, just the predicted minor velocity loss using moly. Normally a conservative 2-3% increase in powder puts you back at the velocity of nekkid bullets.
Try the Sierra bullet hotline; those guys could give you the best advice.

This is a new DCM AR. I don't have any chrony data from it at all to even make any general assumptions about it relative to published data. I still have some nekkid 69s and 80s, but I'd like to avoid working up a load with them just to get an idea of how "fast" or "slow" this barrel is, as I'm really hoping to use the 77s and maybe the 90s. BD

BD, check your PMs.

BTW, I dumped Sierra for Hornady for my NM AR15.

I use 75 HPBTs for 200 and 300, and 75 AMAX for 600. I'm getting 3/4 MOA vertical dispersion at 600 with the AMAX on top of 24.7 gr of Reloader 15, in a late Lake City case, lit by a Remintgon 7 1/2. I use the same exact load with the shorter 75 HPBT for the short line and it too shoots knots.

HP, It sounds like you've found the sweet load for that AR. How is RL15 for temp sensitivity? One of my issues up here is the temp variation between 0 deg and 90, (if it's near 0 or below I just stay home). While the matches are only held from April to October, temps then can still range from the low teens to 90. I'm thinking Varget, or the new "extreme" H4895. BD

B, I haven't used RL15 in the really hot weather yet, but all reports from those who have is that it is a little more sensitive than Varget but not enough to create problems.

Hello HP Shooter,
In the future, you will be banned to the pits for double duty!! Can not believe you dropped Sierra for the H bullet!! Hey, if it works for you , go for it, but truthfully, I have never had any luck at all with the Hornady's????

Long time ago, very talented long range shooter who had withstood the test of time and many matches gave me a piece of advise that has proven true to date and that was if the bullet brand did not stat with an S (Sierra) and the caliber w/ 3 (30 caliber) then you were using the wrong stuff!! Don't know about the 3 part, but can say always depended on the Sierra's for the best scores.

Noticed some talking about the moly idea and been there and done that some years ago, and many still do, but I never did see the real advantage to it and went back to non coated bullets. Old habits are hard to break, but most advantage I heard was that it made the bores easier to clean and did not have to clean as often?? I kind of like cleaning my rifles after a match and never looked back.
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

d, truth be told, I do not use Sierra bullets in any caliber.

I also reload for the 6.5X55 (CZ 550 full stock) and for the 260 Rem. (Model 70 HP rifle).

I use Hornady 129s for the 6.5X55 and Lapua 123s and 139s for the 260.

It's hard to argue with what the targets tell me.

IMO, guys who stick to Sierra w/o ever trying any other brands are like those who still insist that only Leupold knows how to make high quality, yet afforable scopes.

Yes, yes, I know. More heresy.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BD:
Does anyone have a dozen non-moly'ed .223 77 grain SMKs they'ed be willing to part with?"

Sorry for the delayed responce; all my 77's have been moly'ed.
You mentioned possibly trying some 90's; I believe 1:6-1/2 twist is required to stabilize the 90. Is it the JLK bullet you were pondering?

Mulerider, you may be right in that my 1/8 twist won't cut it with the 90s. It was Sierra's new bullet I was thinking of. The BC of .504 looks attractive.
HP, I'm by no means an "S"nob. I use the nosler partitions in my .270 WBY, tried the hornadys with poor results in the terminal performance dept.
My old swedes seem to like just about anything, but they like 120 gr. Ballistic tips, 140 gr. Speer Hot cores and the 160 grain Sierra SMPs the best. Whatever works. Can those 75 grain A maxes be loaded for mag length functioning? Might make a coyote load. BD
BD

So has anybody sent you some 77's yet?

If not PM/IM me your address, and I'll send some this weekend.

"Can those 75 grain A maxes be loaded for mag length functioning? Might make a coyote load. BD"

The 75Amax is normally a single load choice in HP competition, and its overall length and ogive make it not practical for mag length loads.
Not sure what heavyweight (>70gr) pill would be good coyote medicine.

I have a 9 twist 26" Hart-barrelled ISSI AR in .223AI that ii had built specifically for long-range coyotes. I tried JLK's 70, and Hornady's 75 A-Max, but didn't like the terminal performance, beyond 250 or so. The 69 Nosler is working better for me now to about 550 or so, but i never tried the 75/77's.

DPMS sells a VLD magazine, but ISSI had to replace/alter the spriing in it, as it was too stiff. Now it feeds fine with the shorter VLD's seated to N-S juncture.

quote:

Originally posted by BD:
Can those 75 grain A maxes be loaded for mag length functioning? Might make a coyote load. BD
BD

In an AR15? No way.

In a bolt gun? Depends on your magazine box.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
You mentioned possibly trying some 90's; I believe 1:6-1/2 twist is required to stabilize the 90.

That's a fact, Jack. Even 1-7 is too slow for the looooong 90s.

My DPMS VLD magazine WILL load the 75 A-Max to neck-shoulder juncture no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by sscoyote:
My DPMS VLD magazine WILL load the 75 A-Max to neck-shoulder juncture no problem.

I was talking about USGI magazines, which is about what 99% of AR15 owners use.

Yeah u're right-- it's definitely not gonna work for that application. It's not hard to convert tho to get it to work-- pretty ingenius system too they've developed. Might allow more flexibility for 68/69 + 75 (BTHP)/77 gr. applications as well, which might just help some for those 500 yd. coyotes, etc.

sscoyote, up until this season I've shot all my highpower matches using an AR15 in NRA service rifle configuration using exclusively Hornady factory reman ammo loaded with their 75 grain HPBT match bullet to standard magazine length(not the AMAX).

I've shot scores as high as 194 from the 600 yard line. And most of the hits outside the ten ring were me, not the ammo or the rifle. I would hazard a guess that knocking a coyote on his ass at 500 yards with that Hornady (or the equivalent Black Hills) load won't be much of a problem.

I am now reloading my own and I've duplicated the Hornady reman load for the 200 and 300 yard lines, and kept the same primer and powder charge under a 75 grain Hornady AMAX seated .010" off the lands for 600 yard work.

Hey HP-- seems like hitting them at that range isn't too hard under good conditions. I'd venture to say i probably have 3 out of 4 or 5 attempts so far that were good hits with the 69 Nosler that killed the dog there on the spot or close to it. If u were gonna select 1 bullet @ 223 velocities for the longest kills possible WITH GOOD terminal performance which (or which ones) would it be??

I've tried the 75 A-Max, and the 70 gr. JLK, but i think there's just not enuf velocity to open the small meplat bullets much at those ranges, and unfortunately Hornady didn't put any air space behind their tip in the A-Max to help with expansion. As i'm sure u know i have the energy @ 600 yds. with the >.4 BC's, but not enuf velocity i think.?

Does seem all the match bullets are often lousy choices for critters, because as noted, the downrange expansion is minimal or unpredictable.
And as fantastic as the AR in 223 is in HP shooting, to me its trajectory with the 75+gr pills makes it not so great for field use. Known comeups switching from 300 to 600yds is one thing, but judging if your target (coyote?) is 450 or 525 yds can mean the difference between a miss or a lousy hit.
Reliable varmint hunting at extreme ranges calls for lots of horsepower, something the 223 or 223AI ain't got.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
judging if your target (coyote?) is 450 or 525 yds can mean the difference between a miss or a lousy hit.

Reliable varmint hunting at extreme ranges calls for lots of horsepower, something the 223 or 223AI ain't got.

Agree that we owe the prey a swift kill, and that there are situations where the 223 is not going to get the job done.

However, a laser rangefinder can make drop a non-issue at extended ranges. The heavier bullets do provide a much needed defense against wind drift, which is where most hunters need help.

Hunters use the 223 afield for varmnts, and it is still the most common varmint cartridge out there. While hunting coyotes with the 223 the hunter will occasionally be presneted with the "long shot". The question is what is the limitation of that cartridge for efficient taking of varmint spp.? Defining the absolute range limitation is the range where the projectile/shooter loses it's/his ability to consistently kill cleanly. It has been my experience that conditions dictate when to shoot and when not to, and the hunter that goes afield with a good, solid, tested tactical-type system, i.e. knowing instead of guessing range, and referencing that range/windage with ballistic reticles/accurate, repeatable (tested) turret comeups, can shoot reliably at longer ranges than those that haven't investigated the full potential of their "system". The 75 A-Max and 70 gr JLK have not worked well at longer ranges for me out of the AR-15 i'm researching now, but the 69 Nosler has given me good performance at right around the 500 yd. mark. I've also heard reports of the 77 SMK also producing good kills at those ranges from the .223 based cartridges. BUT there's no question that those kind of shots have to be approached with prudent judgement. That std. (different for every shooter) is the only absolute in hunting-- PRUDENT JUDGEMENT, and can only be defined by the shooter himself. FOR ME (only) the edge of reliability for the 223 based cartridges is right around 500 or so, under the right conditions, again only with a good tactical system established.

Just a note, HP has kindly offered me a handfull of the neckked SMK 77s to chrony. The snow pack is down to about 2 feet so I ought to be able to shoot through the chrony in a week or so. BD

Regarding the dog hunting, Nothern Maine does not offer the wide open spaces of the western states. Around here we commonly know the yardage for each shot for one of three reasons; We scouted the "set up" prior to deciding to call there, we placed the bait ourselves, or we're shooting off our own back porch. Finding one bullet which would work for both High Power and coyotes just means less opportunity for "come up" confusion. BD

sscoyote, I think I understand your needs now.

I think the Sierra and Nosler 77s, and the Hornady 75 HPBT (not the AMAX) would be the answer to your problems.

The 77s have both been used in the Navy's MK 262 MOD 0 and MOD 1 ammo issued to most SF units, and the Hornady 75 shares an almost identical jacket construction. All three should fragment very nicely in a dog at most reasonable ranges (under 500 yards).

I agree with you 110% about how the level of technical expertise of a shooter makes a significant difference in max effective range.

I do not hesitate to take a 600 yard shot with my 260 Rem Model 70 target rifle, but would probably never attempt such a shot with my CZ 550 in 6.5X55. Why? The difference between a Bushnell 10X40 mildot scope with tactical turrets on the M70 vs a simpler Burris Fullfield II hunting scope on the CZ.

THks. HP-- i'll give those 75/77's a go. How do u like the turret tracking on that Bushnell??-- got a friend that's using that exact scope on a 22-250AI he built, and loves it-- for coyotes by the way.

ssc, the Bushnell 10X40 is a remarkable buy. I think I paid $170 for it. I've used it for several 600 yard any sight matches and its adjustments are true and repeatable at that distance.