Gumboot,
Diamonds aren't the only "forever" thingy.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:
My 223 is becoming quite the deer slayer. I hunted my friend's property the other day and shot a nice doe. I gutted it and had it hanging at his place and planned to go back to get pics, since I left my camera home that day. I did a head shot (about 65 yds) and watched the deer just flop over with its hoofs going up in the air.

Today I went back to take pics and he just took it to the butcher. I still may get pics, since the butcher is a good friend of his and he should be there when the deer is cut up. I will try to get those pics posted Sunday night or sooner.

I am happy to see that we can have discussions (with some fun) about smaller calibers being effective hunting equipment. Of course, within its limitations. I am now a big fan of the 223. Thanks too to all of you who have used that caliber effectively and posting about it here.

What Farrier Matt said about loud noise really rings home with me. I have some serious ringing in my ears and don't want any more caliber than absolutely necessary. Extra recoil doesn't bother me, but the noise is an issue. The ammo is much cheaper too.

Congrats on the deer and sorry to hear about the ringing in your ears.

Is it possible to have some ear protection on when you hunt? I've hunted with ear plugs on a string with one of them in and then popped in the other just before shooting. Sometimes there flat out isn't enough time, as you know.

Another alternative is to get a suppressor if your state will allow them. They do get spendy but if you get a good one you most likely will be able to shoot it without ear protection. That is why I hunt with mine and my .223 is the only center-fire I have with a suppressor.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Civil servent--I thought they were civil servants--I can see why you are no longer one.

I find it difficult to refer to myself using that term, so I rarely spell those words. I just loath the thought of being a servant to unappreciative jerks, living amongst the population of mostly decent people. But, as law is supposed to apply to everyone equally, those who have jobs in that arena must try to administer it equally. Otherwise, the nice people will be compliant, and the jerks will get away with something that isn't supposed to happen, in a civilized society. So, to soothe my sensibilities, I think of it as serving the nice people, and on their behalf going after the jerks for compliance by the same rules which the nice people abide readily.

I normally use a speell-ckexer. But in haste, I somectimes dont hair on AR. Most foolks not into th taunt thing, skimply forgive.

It's been my observation, in my long and vast experience in the science of the argument, that when the personal taunts start, and the off-subject distractions, such as spelling, and personal attacks start, that's a pretty good sign that the real argument, on topic, is over.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

Congrats on the deer and sorry to hear about the ringing in your ears.

Is it possible to have some ear protection on when you hunt? I've hunted with ear plugs on a string with one of them in and then popped in the other just before shooting. Sometimes there flat out isn't enough time, as you know.

Another alternative is to get a suppressor if your state will allow them. They do get spendy but if you get a good one you most likely will be able to shoot it without ear protection. That is why I hunt with mine and my .223 is the only center-fire I have with a suppressor.

TEANCUM,
I always use ear plugs for hunting and plugs and muffs at the range. I do this even with my Ruger 10/22. I can't afford more damage and don't want to have to have hearing aids some day.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Is it possible to have some ear protection on when you hunt? I've hunted with ear plugs on a string with one of them in and then popped in the other just before shooting. Sometimes there flat out isn't enough time, as you know.

Another alternative is to get a suppressor if your state will allow them. They do get spendy but if you get a good one you most likely will be able to shoot it without ear protection. That is why I hunt with mine and my .223 is the only center-fire I have with a suppressor.

Damn, we're on a roll now, and I'm really feeling queasy now. Two issues of agreement in one day are too much. Must be the phase of the moon. Teancum actually posted something sensible, which I agree with. I think that suppressors should be legal nationally. I see no reason for the restrictions on them. I think they should become a common item as a hunting tool.

Also, now I understand more why Teancum uses the 223 for hunting. Having a legal suppressor makes a lot of sense. IMO, that alone is justification of using a 223 for deer, respecting its limitations, of course.

Also of course, Teancum would use the 223 whether he had a suppressor or not, and still dream that the 40gr BT defies physics and the mfg design. It's the magic bullet.

KB

Kabluwey --Getting all cordial and agreeing with people. You musta been hanging out at the gay bar more than you usually do. Glad you wear protection when hunting, wouldn't want you getting AIDS.

It's refreshing that you worry about me. It's the thought that counts, regardless that your life's experience and reference points, gay bars and AIDS and such, have no relevance to me.

Best Regards to you as well. Happy turkey day.

KB

I stumbled upon this interesting test on 223 bullets and wound channels. This is specifically related to deer, not tactical applications.

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gu...r_deer_stalking.html

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but the parts I did read gave me the impression that it's the best written and best researched article I've ever seen on use of the 223 on deer. I don't have time to study it right now, but I'll read it thoroughly tonight.

I particularly liked this part:

"Thinking about it logically, the reason that .22 centrefires get bad press for deer work is that in the vast majority of cases the wrong bullet type and weight rather than the wrong calibre are used."

I'll take it a bit further:

Logically, the reason the .22 CFs get bad press is because they fail often enough to notice, and the reason for that is the vast majority of cases the wrong bullet type and weight rather than the wrong calibre is used.

Something that seems to be rather unique about the .22 CFs is not necessarily the cartridge, the bullet, or the firearm, but the shooter. They tend to defy physics and the mfg design intent of bullets with their own belief. Carpetman and teancum (and others) are fine examples of those you can show logic and great research and articles like the one linked above, and they will still come up with some BS about experience or whatever, along with outrageous and impossible claims too.

There are millions of carpetmen and teancums out there rationalizing the use of their slow twist .223 pop guns on deer, and the use of light explosive .223 bullets because their POS rifle shoots best with or perhaps won't stabilize anything over about 55gr.

I believe that unfortunately the ignorance re the bullet selection for .22 CFs use on deer is unlikely to change. There is a fresh supply of idiots every day, many taught by grandpaw or daddy, some by their uncle Sam, or to be in with tacticool wannabee buddies. That is the reason the .22 CF cartridges should not be legal for deer hunting. It's not because of those who know better, and are willing to learn something, but because of the high ratio of idiots who will use the 223 inappropriately, and get all indignant about their right to do so.

KB

Been a bit busy lately, but I did go out yesterday evening. I was running behind and when I pulled in the gate I could see deer already in the wheat way over on the other side of the cotton. I was on a culling mission, and since it looked like I was gonna have to take what I could get I left the .223 in the pickup and carried the old 30-06 instead.

I had to crawl down the rows of cotton to get to a vantage point overlooking the wheat, and the way the field is laid out if I tried to get any closer the standing cotton would block my shot. A big old Methuselah doe was at 265, I held about 6" high (200 yard zero) and sent the 165 SGK downrange. I been playing with bows and little guns all season and forgot how much I love that rifle. When the trigger breaks on that baby, things die. I could hear that bullet hit just like an old beaver slapping the water with his tail. She tried to stumble a few steps but just coupldn't manage it.

There's days I like to shoot the .223, and days I want to take whatever shot I want, no question asked.

I will hunt deer with anything that goes bang, I will modify my hunting style to match what goes bang..I have culled many African plainsgame with the 223 and 6x45. I have trophy hunted with a 25-35 carbine, and I passed up some pretty good buck that were beyond my capabilites, but sooner or later shot the deer I wanted..If I am hunting does for meat, I take close head shots or neck shots.

Its all about ethics, maturity, hunting skill and the ability to place the shot every time n the correct place. Improper use of a small caliber equals wounded animals..Improper use of a 600 N.E. equals wounded animals.

For one long summer in my youth, my dad had a ranch in Mexico and built a fence around it with a crew of locals..My job was to shoot some of the many deer on that ranch to feed that crew..I used a Win. mod. 63 auto 22 L.R. Those deer were tame and had not been hunted at all. The locals had no guns..In the course of a day I would ride my horse by several deer at 25 or 35 yards, shoot several of them behind the shoulder with a HP or lead bullet and ride on not disturbing them and go to the next bunch and repeat that..I shot up to 10 a days sometimes at least 3 days a week..I would make a big circle and come back and gut all those deer then get part of the crew to come an pack them to their camp..If you pushed them after the shot you would lose them as they would go a long ways before dieing, and I was taught that by one of the old men in camp from the start. He showed me how to do it and it worked. I would take some of the deer to the town of La Mula and trade the deer for quail..The Mexican kids rounded up quail by clicking two rocks together and herding a covey into their wire trap, that was an education to watch. Those were great times for a kid to grow up in.

Mr. Atkinson, and I use Mr. in respect, I have a question, comment, or whatever, which I ask you to address.

Many times in the argument re use of 22 CFs for deer, someone brings up the fact that "in the old days", or perhaps re some "old timer", the 22 LR killed many deer. The implication of course is since that's a fact, then what's the big deal with using a 223, for example, on deer, since obviously the 223 is much more powerful in comparison.

I could name several possibilities for discussion. You mentioned rather tame deer, for one thing. Another may be the knowledge of or skill of shot placment, for example.

My favorite distinction, of course, is bullet selection. As I remember, the 22 LR bullet will penetrate a long ways. Whereas the 223 varmint type bullet simply explodes within a few inches of contact.

Anyway, I could go on, but what I'm asking is that you give us your insight on this, since you brought up the success with the 22LR, long ago and far away thingy, in the first place.

You are fond of telling old timey stories, so I'll share one too. My hunting buddy in Texas told me this one, from when he was a lad. He had a 22 LR simi-auto like you. One day, while he was out squirrel hunting, he crossed paths with a medium size sow. So he shot the hog with the 22, and it ran off. He was quick enough to run it down, because each shot slowed the pig down a little. It took a least a dozen hits, and finally he was able to place the finishing shot in the head - precisely. That's how I envision the use of a 22LR on such game to work out, more often than not. He mentioned that he was picking thorns and briers out of his own hide for weeks after that chase. Frankly, to me, that scenerio plays out better, logically, considering the capability of the 22LR in the hands of most folks, than ten deer a day with no glitches.

Perhaps my Texas friend could have just waited an hour or so, as you did with those Mexico deer, before following up, and perhaps found the sow dead not too far away. Then again, maybe not. After all, there couldn't have been much of a blood trail, and the bush in East Texas isn't open, but dense with thorns and undergrowth.

The thickets I often hunt deer in are such that it's easy to lose a deer if it runs after the shot. Besides I really dislike tracking or following blood trails, especially where brown bears live too. Giving a blood trail an hour, then following up - yea, if you like excitment and surprises at what may be waiting at the end of that trail. In such case, around here, my sane advice is to be carrying a big bore stopper.

KB

As a much younger man I ,like Ray, have killed deer with a 22 LR. They were head shots at close range. Than, a little before sun down while hunting rabbits , I shot a small buck in the chest with two quick shots from my 10-22. To my disdain he ran off and was not found before night fall. Never shot at a deer with a 22LR after that. I don't think I ever told that story before. roger

Great story, bartsche. Thanks for sharing the memories with us. I have a similar (bad) story involving a 22 LR and a large old stray dog. I won't tell the story, but the outcome broke me from shooting dogs. I never shot another one after that, regardless of the cartridge.

As the old cliché goes, we learn from our mistakes. It's also great, and inexpensive, if we can learn from the experience of others. Some of us made our mistakes in our youth, such as the use of inadequate cartridges on deer, and grew out of it. Some of us learn from the (valid) knowledge shared by others. Meanwhile, some don't learn a darn thing, carpetman for example, and not only keep on keeping on, but teaching children to do the same stuff that we grew out of, after seeing the results.

KB

My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot.. opcorn

roger

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Make sure you use the heavy 25 grainers, you don't want to be a stunt shooter trying to get away with those light 20 grain bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

X2 roger

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Make sure you use the heavy 25 grainers, you don't want to be a stunt shooter trying to get away with those light 20 grain bullets.

Does Nosler make a partition in that?

Obviously this is gonna generate a need for experimentation of live deer to find that magic sweet range where the bullet won't operate like a varmint bullet, but instead produce the perfect mushroom, found just under the hide on the opposite side, and resulting in DRT. After all, this is a competative sport, with bragging rights to the stuntsmanship - right?

Someone who is into such things, and I could name three at least, could start a pool, and the one gussing the closest yardage wins the pot. Is is 80yds, or 120yds? Or perhaps in teancum's and carpetman's dreams?

Or perhaps Barnes will intro a new TTSX in 25gr, just for the cartridge.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Seafire,


your ol' buddy G.W. here,

just for shits and giggles,

will you spray and pray?

or will shot placement be in order?

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Make sure you use the heavy 25 grainers, you don't want to be a stunt shooter trying to get away with those light 20 grain bullets.

Scott,

I'd publish some results of some 18 grainers,(with photos)out of my 17 Ackley Hornet or Hebee, but.............., well you know what they say about swattin' buffler's with 18's out of a 17.
they'd probably say it was a stunt at best and unethical at worst at distances over 100 yds.

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Seafire,


your ol' buddy G.W. here,

just for shits and giggles,

will you spray and pray?

or will shot placement be in order?

GW,

you know what kills game...

1. shot placement
2. clean living
3. NOT voting democrat..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
My new deer rifle will be the upcoming Hornady 17 Hornet.....with a light charge of Blue Dot..

Seafire,


your ol' buddy G.W. here,

just for shits and giggles,

will you spray and pray?

or will shot placement be in order?

GW,

you know what kills game...

1. shot placement
2. clean living
3. NOT voting democrat..

You musta been readin' my mail.

Best

GWB

Kybluewy,
I am 77 and when you say in the old days with me that is definatly the old days, the depression was coming to and end but times were hard and money was scarce...Back then nobody was into calibers, balistics, and we did what we could afford and 22s were cheaper than 30-30s. In my case, I had the 22 mod. 63 Win. auto because it was flat and rode well in a saddle scabbard..I recall a number of deer I double tapped that continued to graze as I rode off in my pre planned circle of about 5 miles. Actually with a preferred double lung shot they do bleed fairly well out the nose and mouth, and I had the worlds best trackers to help me out if needed..I never lost a deer and I never shot much beyond 25 yards with a few at 50 or so?? I guess?..I knew if I made a mistake then I had to ride back get help and waste a lot of time. At some point I brought my old 25-35 to camp and I used it some, but ammo was so costly dad preferred I used the 22 and it was working. Most of those deer were coues deer that weighed 60 pounds but many were mule deer..It worked and I got the job done feeding a large number of fence workers. We had a dump for the crew and one morning as I was leaving camp to go get some quail from the ladies in town, there was a black bear in the dump and I emptied a clip full of 22 into him, he died fairly quickly but it was hell and brimstone for a minute or two and I never attempted that again.. A lot has happend since those early days, and today I will still use any caliber but will adjust my hunting methods to fit the caliber and the terrain and the disposition of the deer in an area. I will keep it all in my favor or walk away from it.. If one uses the 22, 222 or 25-35 the your chances of success go down with each caliber designation, and if our trophy hunting your chances then become fate, you have to hope its better to be lucky than good, but if your hunting meat and does, then your chance soar upwards..A man with a 22 L.R. has about the same challanges as a bow hunter IMO..

I do not recommend light calibers, but I know they work when applied properly. I do not choose light calibers when I am hunting trophy animals, they are only used out of necessity or if a window of opertunity presents itself and thats all thats handy at the time. I shot the biggest coues deer of my life while I was feeding cows and he was out in the flat bedded down and I had a 222 with 60 gr. Sierra HPs and when he stood up I laced one behind his shoulder and he dropped. That was on the last day of season at about 5 PM. on my Rosillas Mt. Ranch just So. of the Big Bend Nat'l. Park in Texas, and the first opetunity to shoot at a deer all season, My paying hunters had all left and I was busy working and opertunity presented itself to fill my tag.

Ray,

I really like reading your stories. It amazes me how things change in a lifetime. Don't you wish sometimes that we could read or listen to stories of the real old-timers, like Jim Bridger, or perhaps others such as those who were the original settlers of Texas. That country had to be really something wild back then.

KB

quote:

I will hunt deer with anything that goes bang, I will modify my hunting style to match what goes bang..I have culled many African plainsgame with the 223 and 6x45. I have trophy hunted with a 25-35 carbine, and I passed up some pretty good buck that were beyond my capabilites, but sooner or later shot the deer I wanted..If I am hunting does for meat, I take close head shots or neck shots.

Its all about ethics, maturity, hunting skill and the ability to place the shot every time n the correct place. Improper use of a small caliber equals wounded animals..Improper use of a 600 N.E. equals wounded animals.

Thank you, Mr. Atkinson. That says it all and common sense cannot argue with the logic or the experience behind those words.

I find these cartridge arguments to be amusing entertainment. Some of the drama and emotion would make a good "reality" show.

I put hunting big game with small cartridges in the same arena as bows and muzzle loaders. In the right hands, under the right conditions, they are all fully capable of putting meat on the table. I personally prefer to hunt with equipment that shines during those less than perfect conditions. (bigger bores, premium bullets and premium optics!)

Merry Christmas to all and Wishes for a Safe, Healthy and Prosperous 2012!

Larry