I'm looking to build a light weight sheep rifle that won't rattle my teeth. Has anyone used a 6.5 Creedmoor for sheep out to 400 yards?

That LAW Closer is right near where you want and you don't have to worry about the hookup or wait times on the edge.

6.5 Creeds are going to roll again on their line in two weeks.

Just My View.

I am hunting a 26 Nosler this year and while its not a lightweight it doesn't kick that bad but is a loud bugger.

nice mild recoiling cartridge. The reason you tend to see more high powered rounds used, imho, is the difficulty judgind distances from mountain to mountain, and the rainbow trajectory.

Rumor has it that you will carry the rifle about eight hours per round fired. One won't kill you...

River: Sheep are not difficult to kill. About like a deer. Since you did not state where you will hunt, be aware that sheep often live in the same habitat as bears. I like a 30 caliber rifle for sheep because of sleeping in a tent with 100 lbs. of bear bait nearby after the sheep part of the hunt is over. My sheep rifle is a model 70 stainless in a MPI lightweight stock. 7.5 pounds all up and the recoil is no problem. Had some interesting nights in the Brooks Range.

The Creedmoor makes a great sheep chambering in my opinion. Low recoil, a pleasure to shoot prone, high BC bullets. With a ballistic reticle or turret scope there's no reason it isn't a very capable 600+ yard chambering. I've seen elk go down at over 500 yards with the Creedmoor and several sheep and mule deer at over 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
nice mild recoiling cartridge. The reason you tend to see more high powered rounds used, imho, is the difficulty judgind distances from mountain to mountain, and the rainbow trajectory.

Rumor has it that you will carry the rifle about eight hours per round fired. One won't kill you...

Might have been true before the days of laser rangefinders. I see no difficulty these days getting accurate ranges as long as you use a quality rangefinder. Leica seem to work the best though I've never ranged sheep with them, but they seem to pick up on smaller targets like pronghorn easier and farther out than any I've tried.

6.5 Creedmoor will get it done without beating you to death, so will many other off the shelf cartridges. I think you'll kill most things you point it at. Wayne Van Zwoll killed a bull elk with one at something like 600 yards.

The 257 Weatherby is fantastic as well. Though I am pretty sure I'd still pick a 6.5 if given my choices.

I bought one of the Sub-Moa vanguards 10 years ago, it was a solid rifle.

I would not have expected it to work that well on elk also but that makes it even more attractive, Part of the reason i'm looking at the 6.5 is that it seems like it would also be a good rifle to start my sons with.

I had a 270 WSM built on a Rem 700 action, very thin barrel, I believe # 2 contour and a very light mcmillan stock.
Dropped a DALL ram at 200 yards and a mountain caribou at 320 yards. I was using 130 grain accubonds.
That rifle has a lot if recoil, but as others have said , there is a whole lot more carrying than shooting.
I think I'd go with something a little flatter and more energy.
Good luck.

laser rangefinders are not the issue, again, imho.

The issue lays in the notion that you are seldom shooting across a hay field. Cross canyon shots can include winds blowing different directions.

I know, computers prove that is not an issue. That said, the same computer analysis once proved that Bumblebees are too unaerodynamic to fly, and the H-bomb can't work. Until it did.

I have the opportunity to shoot across freshly mowed hay fields here in Idaho about four months a year. Even the latest Picatinny Arsenal projections are only ballpark figures.

You don't get "spotters" on Sheep hunts. Something a little faster will shoot the higher BC (read heavier) bullets with a flatter trajectory.

Get your sons 243's to learn how to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
laser rangefinders are not the issue, again, imho.
I
The issue lays in the notion that you are seldom shooting across a hay field. Cross canyon shots can include winds blowing different directions.

I know, computers prove that is not an issue. That said, the same computer analysis once proved that Bumblebees are too unaerodynamic to fly, and the H-bomb can't work. Until it did.

I have the opportunity to shoot across freshly mowed hay fields here in Idaho about four months a year. Even the latest Picatinny Arsenal projections are only ballpark figures.

You don't get "spotters" on Sheep hunts. Something a little faster will shoot the higher BC (read heavier) bullets with a flatter trajectory.

Get your sons 243's to learn how to shoot.

Well range was your original issue, I quoted it. Now it's wind, go figure! Time to come out of the stone age IS. The Creedmoor is perfectly capable of launching +.500 BC bullets at 2900+ fps and +.600 BC bullets at 2700 fps. I think the OP can find something that'll buck the wind.

I wonder how people ever killed sheep with the old .270 and bullets in the high +.300 BC 130 grain bullets? Things don't have to be overly complicated, just pick a rifle and learn to shoot it. I'm sure the Creedmoor will kill any sheep as dead as any cartridge you have in mind.

Marty Webb's and TCrafts monsters Number 4 and Number 7 all time BC Rams were taken with 22-250.

Sincerely,
Thomas

Taylorce1 has hit the nail on the head. Just pick what you like and practice. The Creedmore, 260, 270, 25-06, 264 win mag, any of the Wby mags, 30-06, 7em em, all basically the same when you consider your wind, shot angle, elevation at this point are unknown. You will have to be familiar with your rifle, and capable adjusting to the given set if circumstances. And don't be fooled, of all the new (and old) magic cartridges that have made miraculous 1 shot kills at a country mile, there have been more misses or bad hits resulting in long tracking jobs that are not often mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
laser rangefinders are not the issue, again, imho.

The issue lays in the notion that you are seldom shooting across a hay field. Cross canyon shots can include winds blowing different directions.

I know, computers prove that is not an issue. That said, the same computer analysis once proved that Bumblebees are too unaerodynamic to fly, and the H-bomb can't work. Until it did.

I have the opportunity to shoot across freshly mowed hay fields here in Idaho about four months a year. Even the latest Picatinny Arsenal projections are only ballpark figures.

You don't get "spotters" on Sheep hunts. Something a little faster will shoot the higher BC (read heavier) bullets with a flatter trajectory.

Get your sons 243's to learn how to shoot.

Sheep hunt much?

I have not so I will offer no advice on the topic.

From what I hear from friends who have been there and done that....it is the rifleman and not the rifle anyway

But if I was to build a light weight rifle on a short action for me it would be damn simple

Kimber Montana in 7-08

Set the barrel back one turn and punch the chamber to 7-08AI

Load it up with 154 Interbonds

Or for the extra 3 oz go with a long action 280AI Kimber Montana and shoot the same 154's

quote:

Set the barrel back one turn and punch the chamber to 7-08AI

This is a great idea for those that like wasting their time and money!

If I was a serious sheep hunter, my gun would look very much like a Remington M-7 chambered in .270 WSM with a custom featherweight 22" barrel.

Stainless or blued.....no difference in my eyes....but a Leupold 3-9 X 33 featherweight scope with the ranging dots installed. Add a McMillan stock.....you've already added up some serious bucks here.....but if you can afford the sheep hunt.....this rifle won't be a serious setback to you.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Set the barrel back one turn and punch the chamber to 7-08AI

This is a great idea for those that like wasting their time and money!

Waste time? Your on an internet forum and have over a 28k post count so thats damn funny

Since this hunt will likely cost you more than $20,000, and you will have just a few days in a season, why live on the marginal edge? You wound one, you are done. You miss one, you may not get another shot. But you will have spent at least $20K for the experience.

This ain't Africa, where you will see from low hundreds to low thousands of every thing but the Dangerous Five (excepting Buffalo) and have two or three weeks to pick and choose.

I've been putting in here in Idaho since 1980. Not yet...

Shucks, you and the know-more-than-me group here are pushing low recoil. How about a 22-K Hornet with 80gr VLD's?

Ask your outfitter what the success rate is, and what rifles his successful hunters carried, and harvested with...

All noise aside, that should be your answer...

Good Luck with your choice and let us know if you got a sheep or not.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Since this hunt will likely cost you more than $20,000, and you will have just a few days in a season, why live on the marginal edge? You wound one, you are done. You miss one, you may not get another shot. But you will have spent at least $20K for the experience.

This ain't Africa, where you will see from low hundreds to low thousands of every thing but the Dangerous Five (excepting Buffalo) and have two or three weeks to pick and choose.

I've been putting in here in Idaho since 1980. Not yet...

Shucks, you and the know-more-than-me group here are pushing low recoil. How about a 22-K Hornet with 80gr VLD's?

Ask your outfitter what the success rate is, and what rifles his successful hunters carried, and harvested with...

All noise aside, that should be your answer...

Good Luck with your choice and let us know if you got a sheep or not.

Rich

I'll be helping a friend fill his sheep tag September 8th.....1200 mile pack mule.......btw...no outfitter

I doubt we will use anything special....and RSnelltrom won't be spending 20k and I guarantee that he kills the biggest sheep out of his unit this year

From someone that hunts sheep every year and has been on and guided several outfitted hunts for them, I've never used more than a 7mm (other than a 50 cal muzzleloader on one) Many have been taken with different 6.5 variations. As most shots are taken prone with relatively lightweight rifles, recoil is a concern. I'd rather see someone comfortable with their Creedmoor than afraid of their 300. I'm pretty sure I know who will get the job done best.

A sporterized 6.5 X 55 can be light and do all a Creedmoore will do and than some ! roger

quote:

Waste time? Your on an internet forum and have over a 28k post count so thats damn funny

yup....and a bunch of them explaining to folks the truth about the term "AI"!

Ted,

you sure about that 1200 miles? A good mule can cover 20 miles a day on flat ground. My Father used to get good Missouri Mules from an Amish friend, and that's what they could do, on a several days trek.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Ted,

you sure about that 1200 miles? A good mule can cover 20 miles a day on flat ground. My Father used to get good Missouri Mules from an Amish friend, and that's what they could do, on a several days trek.

This Poplar Bluff pack mule will need to drive 1200 miles before he can share in another great hunt camp with the Snellstrom brothers

If I am alive through mid November I will make the 2400 mile round trip to Colorado 3 times

September + Colorado + The Snellstrom camp + Bighorn.......wow!! Wouldn't miss that for anything!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Waste time? Your on an internet forum and have over a 28k post count so thats damn funny

yup....and a bunch of them explaining to folks the truth about the term "AI"!

Using the search function and waisting some of my time.....

I see you do a lot of "explaining" here and there

Waiting on an education on the truth.....

Ahhh, Poplar Bluff. That explains everything...

PB....home of the Mules.....but I was actually raised just North of Poplar Bluff....Patterson/Silva area

I moved here for an injection mold maker apprenticeship after graduating from tech school in 88

Wow! I'd have thought someone (other than Taylorce1 . . . who I thank for making me feel not quite so alone) would have mentioned a .270 Win.

But maybe a 90 year old cartridge is, you know, not as sexy as the younger ones . . ..

Still, I agree 100% with Taylorce1 when he says: "Things don't have to be overly complicated, just pick a rifle and learn to shoot it. I'm sure the Creedmoor will kill any sheep as dead as any cartridge you have in mind."

(Disclaimer: I've never been sheep hunting, nor will I ever hunt sheep . . . "ancient" being the best descriptor of, well, me.)

As much as I dislike jocko, the truth is that he packed an OM70 in 270 Win well into his seventies sheep hunting...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Since this hunt will likely cost you more than $20,000, and you will have just a few days in a season, why live on the marginal edge? You wound one, you are done. You miss one, you may not get another shot. But you will have spent at least $20K for the experience.

Ask your outfitter what the success rate is, and what rifles his successful hunters carried, and harvested with...

What is this so called "marginal edge" you speak of? Where does the imaginary line begin or end in you opinion?

Seems to me at least one guide/outfitter/sheep hunter has spoken, and I can't imagine taking a bighorn with a smokepole! Talk about velocity and high BC (heavy for caliber) projectiles! Make.mine something a little smaller in diameter.

Back before WWII, the eskimos in Alaska were killing Polar Bears with 22 hornets. That's one example.

I prefer the notion that you choose a cartridge that will do the job under the absolute worst case scenario, not the one that will work if everything goes just right.

taylorce1,

I understand that you could write a check big enough for eight or ten of us to hunt sheep, but for the rest of us, $20,000+ is a lot of money. That's my allowance for a whole year.

So pardon me if I suggest that the gentleman uses a cartridge big enough to blow a fist-sized hole thru a sheep at 400 yards, instead of trying to figure out how to use just as puny a round as possible. The maximum edge would be something like a 300 RUM.

could probably kill most sheep with a 6.5, but if you don't kill it right away sheep can get in some spots you'd need to be a pretty good cliff climber to get to. I'd also want to know if I was in brown bear country what the guide was carrying. Someone needs to have enough gun to turn one.

quote:

I can't imagine taking a bighorn with a smokepole! Talk about velocity and high BC (heavy for caliber) projectiles! Make.mine something a little smaller in diameter.

The worst part was packing an 11 pound rifle around the mountains for two years! Hope to take one with my bow this year. Just not sure what calibre broadhead to use

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Back before WWII, the eskimos in Alaska were killing Polar Bears with 22 hornets. That's one example.

I prefer the notion that you choose a cartridge that will do the job under the absolute worst case scenario, not the one that will work if everything goes just right.

taylorce1,

I understand that you could write a check big enough for eight or ten of us to hunt sheep, but for the rest of us, $20,000+ is a lot of money. That's my allowance for a whole year.

So pardon me if I suggest that the gentleman uses a cartridge big enough to blow a fist-sized hole thru a sheep at 400 yards, instead of trying to figure out how to use just as puny a round as possible. The maximum edge would be something like a 300 RUM.

I'm sure the Hornet was a huge improvement over the spears the Inuit's had been using for centuries before gunpowder and firearms made it's way to Alaska and northern canada. Guided hunting is above my pay grade for the most part, or I'm to cheap to pay for it. I've hunted a bit more than some not as much as others, but what I've found is fist sized holes don't kill any better than dime, nickel, quarter or half-dollar. All fist sized holes do is give people who need to compensate for something lacking in their lives a reason to thump their chest and brag.

99 times out of 100 keeping it simple simply works. That one time it doesn't, if the hunter is determined and resourceful, they can change the situation to where it does work. I've yet to find a situation where an appropriate bullet for caliber starting with a muzzle velocity around 2800 +/- 200 fps fails to work when you put it in the vitals of any game animal. Though I shoot cartridges at times that are more extreme than that as well, but I don't delude myself into thinking they somehow kill animals any better.

Rule #3C: when you cannot justify your arguments, attack the person you are arguing with. That is the issue here, you can't fault my logic, or the experience thousands of sheep hunters have had; so you drag up the lame old thing about compensating for something. Give up the specious ploy about if you can't argue the message, attack the messenger.

Stay on topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
That is the issue here, you can't fault my logic, or the experience thousands of sheep hunters have had;

I would say the vast majority of sheep hunters I know shoot 7mm or less.....sure some shoot ..30 cals but the vast majority are .25-7mm.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Rule #3C: when you cannot justify your arguments, attack the person you are arguing with. That is the issue here, you can't fault my logic, or the experience thousands of sheep hunters have had; so you drag up the lame old thing about compensating for something. Give up the specious ploy about if you can't argue the message, attack the messenger.

Stay on topic.

I have stayed on topic, and you've used no logic. First you state judging distance is the issue, I simply stated a quality range finder fixes that issue. Then it is wind not distance and needing high BC bullets, I said you can't do much better in BC than 6.5mm. Lastly it's the size of the wound, I argue it's not the size but where it's located. I've stayed on topic, I've just disagreed on every single issue you've listed with the 6.5mm.

Now you were the first to get personal, and now your braggadocio has left you looking the fool. You're exactly as I described in my last post, and proving it ever since. Just because you think you're a big deal on the forums doesn't make it so.

I have only taken five dall sheep. The biggest was my first at 39 7/8 inches. I may have less sheep hunting experience than many because I am pretty much limited to dall sheep.
However, I probably have talked and interviewed more guides than anybody I know. You know that kid that sits in the corner and listens to the old guides. That was me. So I don't have a huge knowledge base of sheep hunting outside of Alaska other than talking with Duncan Gilchrist, Sherwin Scott and Arthur Dubs(before he came down with Altheimer's).

The 270 Win was a big cartridge for many sheep hunters in Alaska. In fact, my guess is that almost half of the long term sheep hunters used a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester in 270 win. Jack Lentfer and Will Troyer were people who came to mind. Parker Wallace, grandson of Coke Wallace uses a Rifles Inc 270 Win for hunting. It is interesting that a couple of the young sheep hunters have trouble shooting a 5lb all up rifle accurately.
Frank Cook used a 270 Win in a King Sporter.
Toney Oney used a Pre-64 Model 70 in 270 to not only take a high 700 Slam but a world slam. Again everything was about dependability.

However, many have used a 300 Win or 300 HH. I shot my first 3 sheep with a 300 win and next two with a 270 Pre-64. Howard Knutson used a Holland and Holland custom in 300 H+H. Jack Lee used a Pre-64 300 Win mag. Harry Swank used a 300 Weatherby. Dennis Harms, Don DeHart, Mel Gillis, Joe Want and Al Lee were all guides who used 300 mags.

Many guides who started hunting sheep hunted with 243 Win. There is one model 600 243 that has been passed to many of the guides in the North Wrangells from Kirk and Cole Ellis to Joni Koser to Striker Overly to now Brian Kerley who is a packer but mark my words will be a guide in the Wrangells.

Many of those guides and a good group of those folks moved to 7 Rem Mags. Ed Rasmussen who has much international sheep hunting experience only uses a 7 Rem Mag. He used the same rifle on his First Nations Kluane Hunt.
The same North Wrangell guides like the 7 Rem mag for reach and its ability to make up for shooter error. Mind you, most guides shoot very well but the notion of a guide rifle is that it can either finish off a wounded ram or be handed over to the client so that they can get the job done.

One major rifle and combination was the 264 Win Mag in a Model 70 pre-64 featherweight that was owned by Jim Harrower(Hap). This rifle had an almost mystical quality of being done extremely right for everybody who used it and you would be amazed by the number of big sheep taken not only in Alaska but in the lower 48 and even to Tajikstan and Mongolia. Hap actually loaned the rifle to go to Mongolia where it was also successful. It wasn't fly weight but it was dependable and accurate every single time.

Another outlier are the big 300 Rum rifles used by Dr. Jay Cassell from Wasilla that has been successfully used on a big number of big sheep in the Western AK range. Kurt Racicot also used a 30-378 in the same fashion. 9.5 lb sheep rifles that can set up and finish the shot when it might go over 300 yards. It works for them.

My Cousin has a barn(quite literally his shop and tool barn) in Valdez that have all been taken by a 308 Win in three versions of a browning bbr, abolt, and xbolt. The rifle is a tool for him and he is not a rifle looney.

The 06 has been used by guides and clients for years since they first came out. Johnny Porter who was an incredible guide in Pre-TMA Alaska range also pushed keep it simple and structured. Andy Taylor who guided in the Wrangells in the 1920s also used a Type B commercial Mauser in 30/06.

Andy Simons used a 280 Ross but that goes back to the real old days. Cap Hubbert guided with a Savage 99 in 250-3000 and felt that that was all that was needed for sheep and goats. Dunc Gilchrist liked his 25-06 above all other rifles for sheep hunting.

I think everybody on this thread has a great love of sheep and sheep hunting but the big thing is to have a rifle that you can ultimately depend on after it experiences the drops and scratches.

Good luck to everybody.

quote:

Originally posted by River Jordan:
I'm looking to build a light weight sheep rifle that won't rattle my teeth. Has anyone used a 6.5 Creedmoor for sheep out to 400 yards?

Winchester 284 was more-or-less made for that sort of thing, 270 performance from a short action rifle.