I have no rifle in 6mm.

As in Germany the minimum bullet diameter for big game ist 6,5 mm, I can only shoot roe deer, fox with 6mm.

But, as I need for 2009 a rifle project I
am on the way to a 6mm rifle.

I am thinking of

244 Holland & Holland
240 Wby
6x62 frères
Lazzaroni Scramjet

I know, that's a very wide range - but I have time.

Base should be a Mauser 98 system.

I know the H&H is in a very special thing, for the diameter is .245 but its a challenge
The Wby ist not so difficult, the Frères is establish and the Lazzaroni unknown.

Before I make my vote, what do you think?

Barrel lengths, twist rate, brass and bullets.


Burkhard

I'd vote for the 6x62 Freres. I really like it but that's probably because it's such a rare, exotic cartridge over here in the U.S.

I'd look at a 24" - 26" barrel with a 1-10" twist.

The 6mm Remington would be a good one. It is a x57 based cartridge, so that seems like a good fit for your Mauser action. It is not as screaming fast as some of the cartridges you listed, but it is still quite fast.

I think you'll find that many of the best 6mm bullets were designed with the 243/6mmRem type velocity in mind, so I think that is another advantage...not to mention the easy availability of brass and dies.

I'd go with a 1-10 or 1-9 twist with a 24" barrel.

Have you considered the plain old 244/6mm Remington?

You wont do much better than the 6mm Rem or the Ackley Improved version of the same.

As many have already stated the 6mmRem is about optimum in the bore size.

Consider the merits to the arguments in favor of the 257Roberts (a 6.3x57 if you will) over the 25-06Remington)

There IS some truth to the claims that the Roberts cartridge is all that's needed to push 25cal bullets, but the real proof is in the 6.0 bore.

As the 6mmRem and the 257Rob are both simply necked down 7x57Mauser cartridges they tend to fit and feed PERFECTLY in a Mauser action.

the same cannot be said of the others.

AD

Avoid the 244 Holland! I'd take the 6mm Remington but make sure you can "spin" those 100 and 105 grain bullets.

6 x 57 !!!

quote:

6 x 57 !

Germany! Yes, of course!

Seeing you did ask, I would give the 6mm Remington serious consideration. That beeing said, I do like my 6mm/284 with a 1:7.5" twist barrel. I shoot the 107gr Sierra MK @ +/- 3200 fps., and VERY accurate to boot.
Thanks, Doug

I will voice my support for the 6mm Remington as well. Plenty fast, very accurate, easy to load brass. It's a good combination and it's a very servicable round.

Quick twist (8) in 6XC

I can see I am in good company on this thread...

another vote for the 6mm Rem...

a fast twist is an asset...

I have one with a one in 7 twist... and shoot 115 grain Bergers with it at 3250 fps...

its about as flat shooting as you will ever need.. rivals and 240 Weatherby or 6mm/06 any day....

75 grain Hornady HPs give an MV of 3750 fps, with a charge of 4064... or H 414...

Seafire, how long a bbl you using?

I like the 6mm Rem. If it were my project and I wanted a 6mm, that's what I'd do. Lou

thank you for all the replies.

The 6x57 is to close to my 6,5x57,
the 244 H&H, I think the challenge is to big for me
the 6x62 frères is, at the moment, my first choice

the 6mm Rem. - for me unknown, can you give me some more informations.

Before I joint this forum, I never heard about wildcatting, which seems to be very popular in the US.

So my question, is there a wildcat, 6mm based on the 8x68S brass?
As I know the hot 6,5x68, a 6mm should be an idea.

Burkhard

Burkhard,

The 6mm (also called .244) Remington is the 6x57 with a slightly sharper shoulder-I believe 26 degrees instead of 20 degrees. Other dimensions are the same.

I've shot the caliber extensively, and would choose it if I were building a 6mm rifle.

Clarence

Clarence

quote:

Originally posted by Burkhard:
thank you for all the replies.

The 6x57 is to close to my 6,5x57,
the 244 H&H, I think the challenge is to big for me
the 6x62 frères is, at the moment, my first choice

the 6mm Rem. - for me unknown, can you give me some more informations.

Before I joint this forum, I never heard about wildcatting, which seems to be very popular in the US.

So my question, is there a wildcat, 6mm based on the 8x68S brass?
As I know the hot 6,5x68, a 6mm should be an idea.

Burkhard

Generally speaking if you have a really "Hot" cartridge going a step smaller in bore is not
as effective as you might wish.

A good example of this is a rational comparison between the 300RUM and the 7mmRUM
The 300RUM argueably serves a purpose
The same cartridge necked down to 7mm...
the 7mmRUM drives bullets of the same sectional density to approximatly the same speed the 300Rum does, the only advantage is a slight reduction in recoil from the reduced bullet weight at a given speed.


On another note
If you've ever heard of a poorly understood phonemena often called "Secondary Explosion Effect" I should point out that the "Poster child" for cartridges that this occours with are the 240Weatherby cartridge and the 6mm Wildcats based on the 30-06 case.

You simply cannot drive 6mm bullets any faster with a bigger cartridge than can be done with a 240Wby or 6mmGibbs (essentially an "improved" 6mm-06) and that speed is only incrementally faster than that achievable from a 6mmRem/6x57

what the "big" 6mm cartridges can do is burn LARGE quantities of propellant and burn out the chamber throats in a short, violent lifespan.

As for a 6mmRem being "too close" to your 6.5x57 that only serves to display an emotional reason for wanting a 6mm rather than a rational one.

I personally tend to think of a 6mm Cartridge as a more capable alternative to any of the big 22's rather than a lighter 6.5

If you want another rifle you don't need to make it a 6mm to have an excuse to build it.


AD

In another thread on this board, I posted a whitetail deer kill with a 6mm Rem.

This fella was not a small deer but not a horse ... my guess is 225-250 pounds live weight. He was hit in the right front shoulder about half way up with a 95 gr Nosler at 65 yards. The impact knocked him down ... but he got back up. Second shot was just behind the shoulder about 3.5-4" up from the sternum. He basically fell forward and was done.

A necropsy revealed that the first bullet hit the bone on the off side and did not exit. Bullet was recovered and showed the typical Partition performance ... nose was gone and the jacket was fully rolled back. Second shot went through but left an exit that DID NOT bleed much. He's have been a major pain if not impossible to track.

Seems best not to use anything small than the 6mm Rem on a body shot and even that would seem best used on a neck or head shot.

I think I'll stick with 270 Win as a minimum caliber and probably go back to the .338s and 9,3s I have grown to love because their terminal performance is so dramatic. I'm getting too old to spend a lot of time tracking up deer

You are not clear as to "purpose."

On the low end there is the .250 Savage necked to 6mm called the 6mm International. It was on top of the match competition for a time. Last I looked Remington still chambered the 40X in this caliber. So you could have a light walking around rifle or a bull barreled heavyweight with top accuracy and fairly good barrel life.

.240 Weatherby is a .30/'06 case with a rim necked to 6mm. Some even use .25/'06 cases necked down and forget the rim. Headspace on the shoulder. Awful fast. You pay for that in barrel life. And awful versatile.

I believe the .244 H&H is the .300 necked down. In Mr. Ackley's books (US gunsmith, P.O. Ackley) he mentions one rebarrel to this round that wore out the barrel in 250 rounds and without finding and accurate load. That was some time ago and I am sure barrel steel is better. How much? 500? 750? ???

In US the 7x57 M gave us two old favorites, as said. .257 Roberts in .25 and .244/6mm Remington in .24. Great balance. Great barrel life. I suspect you might be happier with the 6mmx57 for finding ammo locally, but your call.

From there, diminishing returns. Mr. Gibbs blew the shoulder forward on the .30/'06 case necked down (and up) for maximum powder capacity. This was right after WW II when there was a lot of '06 brass around cheap to free. But more speed than the .240 Weatherby a bit...

I know nothing about the Freres of Scramjet. I have a 6mm/.284 WCF at the urgin of a gunsmith friend. Hot. I don't plan on long barrel life so I don't shoot it at pests. He was a fanatic about the caliber. He and a number of friends who built rifles as a hobby. Built them. Shot them. Sold them. It gathers it the "developments" of the 20th century. Short powder column. Sharp shoulder. And with factory ammo for the parent. I suspect the 6.5/.284 is more efficient. Luck.

The .240 Weatherby is the best of all worlds. Best quality brass and optimized ballistics.

I vote for the .240 Wby as well. If you reload, it's an especially good choice. It has tremendous ballistics and quite a wide range of bullet weights from which to choose.

I'd vote for the 6mm-06; essentially same ballistics as the 240WBY and much more accurate.

I actually prefer the standard .243 Win. as it is not near the barrel burner the others can be. Had a 6mm, and burned the throat out of it in a couple years. I shot it a LOT, but same with my .234, and it's still going strong.

6mm Ackley. no sales pitch, just a suggestion.

The Lazzeroni 6.53 Scramjet is actually a .257 caliber round, and being a proprietary round is incredibly expensive for ammo or brass...

My vote goes to the 6mm Rem although I doubt there's much practical difference amongst those listed, just because I've used it alot, reliable on whitetails and everything else we hunt in Texas, accurate, flat trajectory, etc.

Thanks for all the informations, now I am more confused than before.

Hat a discussion with my gunsmith.
He kwown, at the end of the year I mostly come with some special ideas.

His arguments

6mm does not bring you any advantage to my 6,5mm, but I can not shot big
game in Germany with 6mm.

So "..take 22 (or 17HMR) for rats and crows.
take a hot 5,5mm for fox and coon and maybe roe deer..
But if you really want to built a hot 6mm rifle, whatever for,

- no belted brass
- not the 244 H&H, its another bullet diameter
- take the cartridge where you can use the longest bullets for the best
(German name is FLÄCHENLAST)
- take a short twist rate 1:7 or 1:8
- you will built a barrel burner, just buy a second barrel.."

Hm, longest bullet. What do you think?


Burkhard

Twist needn't be that fast. 100-105 grainers 1:10" sufficient, plenty accurate.

shot many big whitetales,180-240# mo. deer,drop like a rock with a neck or head shot.use sierra 85 gr hpbt with imr 4064 36.5grs.100-240 yrds. shoot target 200yrds same load,1/2-3/4" groups.50-60 rds 2-3 times monthly since 92, same barrel,1-9"twist.still not shot ""out''as some would say.i guess very hot loads would do this,why go beyond near perfect.$$ wise you'd be hard pressed to beat this!! LOL split1

I have a 6mm Rem that was built on a '03-A3 Remington action in the early 60's and it shoots very well.
My Step-Dad put many, many thousands of rounds throught it, and it is finally in need of a rebarrel.
Getting pretty long in the throat. (Linda Lovelace?)

It still shoots 75g and 80g bullets into a bit less than an inch at 200 yards, but it used to put them in one hole at 200. The advantage of a long action is that the bullets can be seated out so as to not intrude into the powder space. With a standard 6mm Rem, you will only be a few 100 fps under a 240WHBY (the AI version is nearly the same fps as the WHBY), brass is much less expensive and barrel life is much greater.

What ever cartridge you choose, put enough twist in the barrel for heavier bullets, 1-9 at least.


---Mike

are you really serious about the .244 H&H, its so insanely overbore?

for deers my pick would be(in preferred order):
.243Win(because i like to keep it simple)
6mm Rem
.240Wby
6mm-284

Steffen,

I know its mad, but thats the callenge.
But I think the H&H is really a to too big challenge for me.
Next week I have date with my gunsmith, lets see.

At the moment I am looking for components for the H&H. All I could find is very expensiv.
In deed, its no rifle for plincking.

My brain says - take the frères
my heart - the H&H is a must have.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:
I'd vote for the 6mm-06; essentially same ballistics as the 240WBY and much more accurate.

Huh?
Much more accurate?
Can you explain why?

This is what one hunter in Germany built..

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek009.html

I myself shoot 6BR Norma quite a bit, will do 95% of a 243 w/65% of the powder and longer bbl life, and better accuracy IMHO.

8 twist will handle 105-108 VLD bullets.

As many will know I am a BIG fan of the 6mms - I just love them.

At some point I will get a big 6mm - either a 6x62freres or a 6mm-06 but not for a while. I don't shoot a lot but I don't like to think of barrel wear.

I do have a custom 98 in 6mm rem and I can tell you it is a marriage made in heaven. Feeds like a dream and shoots as flat as one should sensibly shoot at game. It is without a doubt an excellent deer rifle and were I limited to one calibre for the UK I'd take it in an instant.

I don't load hot. Had no difficulty getting 3,250fps with a 90gr ballistic tip and VVN160 - great bullet for deer and works on pests too.

Increasing barrel length and using RL22 is a good way of getting top velocity from a more ordinary 6mm. A 26" barrel and top loads of RL22 under a good BC 90-100gr bullet are going to be extremely flat shooting.

before you meet your gunsmith i would try to find .244H&H load data.
to find out if it really is any better then the others
(and i'm a Weatherby owner)

take a look at the 243 wssm. Alot of folks don't think much of them but a lite handling little rifle that packs a punch with lite bullets or heavy long ones.

Cheers, Fish

Have you thought about the 6x47 Lapua? Brass should be available in Europe. Very accurate and enough zoom for small game or antelope. Maybe even deer with the right bullet. DW

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
I actually prefer the standard .243 Win. as it is not near the barrel burner the others can be. Had a 6mm, and burned the throat out of it in a couple years. I shot it a LOT, but same with my .234, and it's still going strong.

Just curious on what load you were shooting to burn the throat out so quickly. I had a 6mm Remington built in 1989 with a 22" Shilen #5 contour and 1:10 twist. I'm still shooting it with 5 shot groups in the 3's. This is shooting maxed 70gr BT's at 3600fps. A real coyote and PD thumper.
The past couple of years I've been shooting a 6BR more and more. It is also built with a Shilen barrel.

Bob