I have been asked from a friend to help him determine what size entrance wound a 223 FMJ could produce. The entrance hole in question is 3/8" in diameter and perfectly round. I told him a 223 Rem 55gr fmj should produce a .224" entrance hole and if it did not tumble should pass thru without coming apart. To produce a 3/8" size entrance hole I told him I would suspect a .38 or .40 caliber projectile (38 special,357 mag,9mm or 40). The exit hole was slightly larger but still well rounded suggesting no expansion. I felt like it was a slow speed pistol round and not a high velocity 223 that would produce such results. The bullet traveled roughly 10 inches.

Has anyone experienced oversized entrance wounds with a 223 fmj? Also if anyone has pictures of 223 Rem entrance holes with measured reference on harvested game that would be very helpful.

Material of target would greatly vary hole size.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Material of target would greatly vary hole size.

+1
Was it a deer or something else?

It is a human torso. Front center chest in sternum. Distance 250 yds. I hate to give this detail but it is relevant to the question. I'm sorry if anyone is offended by this because that is not my intention. My friend is questioning details in a report and asked my opinion because he knows I am an avid gun enthusiast. I explained to him I am not a ballistics expert but would try to help him understand wound characteristics from different calibers and bullet type. He has little to no working knowledge of gun ballistics or bullet characteristics.

I have not hunted large game with a 223 but feel like the entrance wound with a FMJ would not be larger than the caliber while the exit can be substantial depending on bullet construction. He was also wanting to see pictures of how FMJ bullets act when entering and exiting. That is why I have been collecting pictures of game animals taken with a 223 showing entrance and exit wounds. I am just trying to help him understand what he is looking at when he pulls up random pictures on the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:

I have not hunted large game with a 223 but feel like the entrance wound with a FMJ would not be larger than the caliber while the exit can be substantial depending on bullet construction.

I think this is exactly right for soft tissue. For skin over bone different things might happen if bone fragments are produced--but the entrance wound would likely then not be round.

quote:

...I told him a 223 Rem 55gr fmj should produce a .224" entrance hole and if it did not tumble should pass thru without coming apart...

Actually, virtually all M193 (55-grain) and M855 (62-grain) FMJ bullets come apart in flesh. This is why they as as effective as they are in human targets. I don't know for certain if that was one of the original design goals for these bullets, but the bullet makup and profile (including cannelure) make it happen almost all the time. If the bullet traveled 10" through flesh and no fragments were found, then I doubt it was either of those rounds which did the deed.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea18.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/proj...term_m193orm855.html

Sid- There have been studies done and although I don't have any links there is information available.
The entrance wound will be slightly larger in diameter than the bullet even using FMJ's because the skin is no longer stretched over anything. The skin pulls away from the hole, and some tissue and blood may well be expelled out of the entry hole to varying degrees depending on what is behind it. (bone, muscle, fatty tissue)
The exit wound can be from large to small depending on many factors. Whole books, complete courses, and seminars have all been used to explain these things. Some factors that will affect the wound is clothing density, or body armour. The bullet can slow down and will turn around inside the body and can actually exit base first. This will cause a much larger hole, as will the bullet exiting while sideways. This isn't necassarily due to twist rate but the velocity and stability of the bullet as it passes through.
A study in forensics is really about all that can be relevant.

TX Nimrod - Not much experience with humans that have been shot have you? Nate

At standard 223 velocity ranges i.e. about 950 m/s a ogived bullet impacting point forward will consistently produce a wound with actual diameter smaller than the diameter of the presenting part of the bullet in skin.

The appearance of the wound is quite specific showing the typical features of a typical entrance wound, i.e. the actual cavity, a abrasion ring where the superficial dermis is stripped and that is surrounded by a smudging ring. ( smudging by debris found on the surface of the missile .

As a rule unless the bullet has a cutting edge ("scharfrand") the actual defect in the skin is of smaller diameter.

The visual appearance of the wound may give the impression of being of larger diameter than the projectile because of the abrasion ring, in addition, postmortem changes (artefact) causes wound retraction making the wound appear larger than it is. Again a important fact to be considered in forensics science.

If the same bullet is FN cylinder the entry wound shows secondary cavitation effect and this may or may not show stellate laceration of the skin, this is due to the increased drag a FN produces. If the torn edges are aligned one will still see a round hole surrounded by a abrasion ring and a smudging ring though these may be less obvious. To the inexperienced in forensics science such a stellate wound may be misconstrued as a exit wound but with careful examination the actual entry point can be seen.

Hunters often have difficulty conceptualizing the principles of how wound are produced specifically the role the permanent cavity and the temporary cavity effect.

The principles define that the cavity caused by the actual contact with the missile is defined as the permanent cavity, this not necessarily the hole you see in the target, and that area of damage caused by the stretch of the target by the effects of the missiles effect on acceleration of tissue away from the bullet's path. As a rule and by definition, because of the elastic properties of living tissue the permanent cavity is of smaller or equal diameter than the presenting part of the missile.... if it is larger the effect is due to temporary cavitation effect.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
At standard 223 velocity ranges i.e. about 950 m/s a ogived bullet impacting point forward will consistently produce a wound with actual diameter smaller than the diameter of the presenting part of the bullet in skin.

Exactly.

An FMJ will produce a wound smaller than bullet diameter. In fact, even expanding bullets will many times produce small entry wounds even when the exit wound is huge.

Here is another really cool one:

Penetrating projectiles produce holes in bone smaller in diameter than the diameter of the projectile. Huelke and Harger published the results of very comprehensive testing on bone penetration by bullets.

Sorry, but I have trouble seeing the reason for this thread...

I am gathering it is purely academic..

it was asked if someone has had much experience with humans being shot....

I can assume I have had more exposure than others... being trained as a combat medic in the Army... another reason I find this thread a little morbid and useless...

I can tell you there is a lot of variation of what a 55 gr FMH will do, depending on where it hits, how it hits, what velocity is was at during the time of impact...what clothing it penetrated etc..

I can tell you this from personal experience as an example...at 100 yds a 55 grain FMJ shot at an MV of 3100 fps, will bounce off of a 3/8 inch diameter steel plate...

yet the same bullet launched at a 2500 fps MV will hit the same steel plate at 100 yds and drill right thru it...

a 55 FMJ may penetrate something and hit bone, and blow up the bone it hits and leave quite a large hole, described as an entrance hole incorrectly... the big hole is the explosion of bone fragments bouncing back in the direction the bullet came from...

I shot a buck once with a 55 SP out of a 22.250 and hit the back of the neck of a deer running away from me ( I don't take "Texas Heart Shots")...the bullet hit the spine in the back of the deer's neck.. there was a softball sized hole in the back of the neck and it came out the throat/front part and split open perfectly like an open book and the same size as a regular book would be...that was taken at 200 + yards..

I took a deer back in the Midwest one season in No Wisconsin... it was at about 250 yds or so..
hit it right behind the shoulder.. it never touched bone.. going in or going out...

it was shot with an 06 and a 220 grain Round Nose...there was an entrance hole the size of a dime going in and one the same size coming out..

there were 3 grains of corn on the ground in the small amount of blood of the off side..

the deer went straight down...however on field cleaning him, it look liked someone had stirred his lungs and liver with a chain saw inside..

there is a lot of different variables to answer a question like this..

there is also variables on 2 different constructions of 2 different FMJ also...

Lot of variables ! I took two deer with lung shots with 45-7- 300 gr .Entrance holes 2" dia, exit holes 1" !! Dramatic but I went to a NP for better performance -expansion and penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
I can tell you there is a lot of variation of what a 55 gr FMH will do, depending on where it hits, how it hits, what velocity is was at during the time of impact...what clothing it penetrated etc.

Exactly. There are "typical" results and "atypical" results. The terminal behaviour of a bullet cannot be precisely predicted, nor can the evidence left by a bullet strike always reliably indicate the exact nature of the projectile which left the evidence.

???????????????
Variables aside and without getting into a pissing match here.

An entrance wound is an entrance wound and a exit wound is a exit wound, exactly that and each has it's standard characteristics that define it as such can be determined by examination...... this is fundamental science.

This the first thing you learn when you go to the "lets look at wounds" for purposes of "standing in front of the judge and sometimes a jury excercise" !

Now we can pontificate on whether the skin was supported or unsupported what the quality of the skin is in terms of species etc etc what the barriers were to the bullets passage prior to entry etc etc.

The physical barriers were a light jacket and a t-shirt. Both had matching 3/8" holes with some of their material going into the wound. The bullet path in question would have had to travel thru 210 yards of dense forest without impacting any trees or brush. The forest is dense enough that even in winter you cannot see more than 150 yards into it. Hense the reason my friend is questioning the report he was given.

There were no powder burns on the clothing or skin. There were no bullet fragments inside the body(X-Rays showed none). I just feel that this is not a 223 wound and am looking for more experienced opinions to give their thoughts. Thank you to all who have taken the time to respond.

With out a bullet it well be very hard to determine what cailber/round shot was caused by.

Every cailber has many differant types of bullets available.

Then you have sabots ect to deal with.

With out a bullet, shell casing, confession of what was used there is no way some can tell for sure.

Even with a bullet who would know if it was a 22 hornet.223,222. 22-250 they could all be loaded with the same bullet.

You now add bullet, casing,rifle, confession you can be fairly sure what it came from.

But with out the bullet even if you have a casing and confession. One can not prove 100 percent that hole was caused by that firearm.

You may get to beyond a resaonable dought enough for a conviction.

But that is a differant story

From the description doesn't sound like a real high vel impact.

Are you sure it wasn't a arrow with a feild tip.

I have seen about a dozen holes in deer from 223 FMJ bullets and they all produce 22 size holes. Always had to part hairs to find them. Saw one 30 cal fmj hole that also appeared caliber size as well.

I shot a deer with a 9mm 147 gr black talon and it had a 357 size hole going in and about dime/penny size exit.

quote:

TX Nimrod - Not much experience with humans that have been shot have you?

Yep, plenty of experience - but that was long ago and far away. I never performed an autopsy, I was not a pre-med student at the time, but as an avid hunter and ballistic-curious person I did examine the visible wounds when I could. But I do not need to have performed an autopsy. There have been books written by forensic physicians describing the well-known terminal effects of the M-193 and M-855 projectiles - you don't have to make up what happens nor do you have to extrapolate from what a .308 FMJ bullet might do in tissue. Did you visit the links I provided?

Amateur forensic ballisticians (including the posters above) would be warned to read the following; well-known forensic scientist had this to say: "Conversely, inconsistent effects have been noted in wounds caused by the M16 and other modern military bullets. Considering the variation in length of the possible tissue path through the human body, this "inconsistency" of effect is to be expected. Beware! This variation can be used to dupe the unsuspecting. A series of shots through a 14 or 15 cm block of tissue simulant or the leg of a 25 kg animal can give enough variation so that, by selective choice of exit wound photographs, one can "prove" any point one wishes (such as one bullet being less "humane" than another). The author hopes, that understanding this, will make the reader less likely prey to this sort of deception." http://www.uthr.org/SpecialRep...t_wound_patterns.htm

One big question is why the OP feels that a FMJ was used. I have shot five deer with a .223, all with the old 60-grain Nosler SolidBase bullet. Two of them had entrance wounds over twice the bullet diameter and oval in shape. None were shot through the sternum or shoulder blade so the effect of bone directly under the entry point was not demonstrated. How a FMJ bullet would perform on deer I do not know.

To me the lack of bullet fragments and the shape of the wound channel would be far more important in determining the projectile and the velocity which did the deed than would arguing over the shape/size of the entrance wound.



.

While serving in the Army I did see a few wounds with the 5.56 and did autopsy more than one. The entrance wounds, unless the bullet was tumbling were small, almost like an icepick wound with an abrasion ring. All the cases I actually autopsied, though, were close range and in all cases the bullet tumbled and fragmented, especially if it hit bone. All these were with the original bullet out of an M16. Never saw one with the later, heavier bullets. As for the case in question, the information is insufficient to do more than speculate, and, as I have found out, speculating is a good way to get in trouble.

Jerry Liles

I have done a little bit of autopsy work as a resident/student.

If your friend has questions on this (and from what little you say, he does) I would get in touch with a forensic pathologist (not necessarily just the medical examiner) and pay the money to have it gone over.

If there is no bullet or fragments, it would seem pretty odd that they are specifying caliber and type of bullet. My experience is that if its just a gunshot, they tend not to be that specific.

You need someone who knows what they are doing to review the evidence, and possibly do a new postmortem if this is a legal issue. All the internet evidence will be meaningless, the science indicates a lot of variability and sub specifics.

Wow, so here we go again !

I will say it once !

There is no way possible, not in theory, not in practice that the actual entry hole ( perforation) made by a missile in living tissue can be bigger than the diameter of the presenting part of the missile in it's direction of motion.

This is valid for missiles fired at "normal" rifle velocities ie in the order of around 950m/s as well as what one can find in blast injury where missiles can attain velocities greater than 1500m/s

If the hole we see is bigger then it is due to secondary cavitation effect.

In terms of a timeline of events this effect takes place after the missile has actually passed, so it is delayed as shown with high speed photography and radiology. Ie a after the missisle has passed event.

btw my 454 with a 90% meplat would put about a 1" entry hole in anything.

The small arms bullet wounds I've seen, and I've seen more than just a few, were same diameter or, usually, smaller in diameter than the projectile unless the bullet was tumbling or yawing, or had hit an intermediate target, or were extremely close range or contact wounds such that propellant gases actually entered the wound. My credentials are that I'm an Army trained Pathologist. I did my forensic training at the King County Medical Examiners office in Seattle and had additional training through the AFIP Forensic branch at Walter Reed. I was in charge of most of the forensic cases found on federal land around El Paso including federal parks from the Big Bend into Arizona when stationed at Ft Bliss for four years. It was an active practice. I did not go into full time forensics because it is depressing and frequently smelled really bad.

Jerry Liles

Thanks for all the info. It has helped confirm my suspicion that the wound was most likely not produced by a .224 caliber bullet. The investigators were drawing at straws and assuming the projectile came from an adjacent property where someone was target shooting. Our suspicion is a drug deal gone bad. There was a lot of trauma all over the body besides the bullet wound. None of this case has any consistencies and frankly the investigation was rather abrupt.

RMiller:

When you shoot paper targets does your 454 also make one inch holes in the targets as well ?

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
btw my 454 with a 90% meplat would put about a 1" entry hole in anything.

I disagree.

quote:

There was a lot of trauma all over the body besides the bullet wound. None of this case has any consistencies and frankly the investigation was rather abrupt

That should tell you that some one really didn't like this person

If you want answers you need to start with a reputable lawyer ( I know it's an oxymoron) and find a forensic pathologist for hire.

The story doesn't match up I don't think.
First off the caliber and distance don't lend themselves to the type of wound decribed from my limited experience.

At the the 250 yard mark, a .223 with FMJ would likely lack the velocity to fragment. The diameter of the entry would on the surface sounds to be way to large.

There are so many factors that come into play that anything we guess at here is just that, a guess. Nate

Yeah it is a civil case and all angles are being looked at. Even tho my opinion doesn't count in a court of law I feel it is a frivolous lawsuit. Unfortunately what happens in court is not always the right outcome. It is a very unfortunate situation for those involved.

I should have said anything alive. In paper it punches perfect meplat sized holes. Made a bad shot on a small deer once and it took the leg off at the ham. Shot a squirrel in half once too. Shot my buddys brown bear after we skinned it and each shot looked like a spear wound from a piece of rebar not a bullet hole. Went lengthwise through the bear though (no not a 10' footer).

Back in RVN I saw quite a few fatal wounds produced by the .223. The entrance holes were all about caliber. On a corpse several hours old, they would often show oblong. I think it was due to skin losing tone and how the person was shot. At 250, they would about have to be round, due to loss of velocity.

Rich

I think we are slowing getting to the rest of the facts that are sometimes needed when making these long distance internet suppositions . . .

Lover
Wife
Drugs
Redneck revenge

not stray bullet as the police report suggests. Cops didn't like him much did they.

That is my WAG sitting here in front of the puter miles and miles away.


Of course all of the other body trauma was likely caused as he fell after the accidental shooting from a stray bullet.