What is the average amount of shots it should take to fowl a barrel after a thorough cleaning? On most of my rifles it only takes a couple at most but i've been shooting a Rem 722 in .222 and after a good cleaning it is taking a box and a half of ammo to bring the groups down. At first it's all over at about 8" then as i keep shooting it gets smaller and smaller until the last group was .67" for 5 shots.

It depends on the smoothness of the bore.

Obviously, you are cleaning 'too much' fouling out of the bore. Consider using a solvent that removes only powder fouling until the end of hunting season.

Then, clean the bore down to the metal with a good copper solvent, lubricate the bore, and store the gun until you need it again.

George

Oh no, you have opened Pandora's box! This topic may prove to be another ".223 adequacy" topic. You're going to get answers as far apart as water and oil. I believe this to be a man and equipment issue in that; the term "each to his own" will be your best answer. With that said, I'll give you my dish. I'm a match shooting junkie competing in almost every discipline from 100 yard precession BR to 1000 yard closed and open palma. Remember that fouling is not a bad thing and in fact most rifles don't shoot to their ability until a certain amount of fouling is in place in the barrel. For each of my rifles I know just how many "fouling" rounds it takes before I will send a round to paper that counts. On the other hand, I know just how many rounds it takes to where the fouling is going to effect my accuracy. At this point, I push a patch with warm saltwater down the barrel followed by 2 drying patches. This is just enough to bring my barrel back to the bench. At the end of the day and before my rifle gets cozy in the safe, I go through a regiment as follows:

1. CR10 15 strokes with carbon nylon brush followed by 3 drying patches.

2. Push 2 well saturated patches of 98% pure medical grade alcohol through the bore followed by 3 drying patches.

3. Kroil: 15 strokes with carbon nylon brush followed by 3 drying patches.

4. Again, push 2 well saturated patches of 98% pure medical grade alcohol through the bore followed by 3 drying patches.

5. KG1: 10 strokes with carbon nylon brush followed by 3 drying patches.

6. Again, push 2 well saturated patches of 98% pure medical grade alcohol through the bore followed by 3 drying patches.

7. Kroil: 15 strokes with carbon nylon brush followed by 3 drying patches.

8. Again, push 2 well saturated patches of 98% pure medical grade alcohol through the bore followed by 3 drying patches.

9. Silicone based 5000 grit polish: using a cut patch work polish back and fourth in the bore. After 2 application coats, work 7 to 8 polishing patches until bore is completely dry.

10. Again, push 2 well saturated patches of 98% pure medical grade alcohol through the bore followed by 3 drying patches.

11. Let bore dry completely then run down a patch with a lithium based marine grade grease. I have found no better storing media than this. Before shooting, run a saturated patch of Zippo lighter fluid down the bore followed by 2 drying patches. This will remove the grease.

There, now the bore is done and its time to clean the chamber, bolt, trigger and external surfaces.

It takes about an hour after you get it down. This is perhaps the most extreme cleaning but most match shooters live by this method or one they developed them self.

Do you need to do this for a hunting rifle every time you shoot it? I would say that a reasonable cleaning is adequate and when you put your rifle away for the season, then give it the works?

How many licks to "fowl" a barrel.

I'd say if you've been eating seafood you can lick it until doomsday.

If you've been eatin' chicken, well I'd say the same, as the bullets usually go through the tube and external licking probably won't affect accuracy at all. May affect your grip/hold if the chicken was fried.

Now if you're asking how many rounds through the barrel, that's a horse of a different circumstance.

I generally find that I can do just about any thing I need with a jb bore paste/kroil mixture, applied on a bronze bore brush. Say 75 strokes or so, cleaning your rod about every 25 strokes. I then take a dry patches on a jag. Push through the bore from the breach to the muzzle (one way only) til you get very little residue. Then take Montana extreme, Butches bore shine or what ever you like and run a couple wet patches (again from the breach to muzzle only) then finish off with dry patches.
If you're gonna continue shooting, go for it. If you're gonna store it, I like to run a couple patches soaked in Kroil through the barrel.
Works for me and about 100 or so center-fire rifles I have known.

Best
GWB

quote:

Oh know, you have opened Pandora's box! This topic may prove to be another ".223 adequacy" topic. You're going to get answers as far apart as water and oil. I believe this to be a man and equipment issue in that; the term "each to his own" will be your best answer...

Yep!

I think mine shoot best squeeky cleeeeen!

I just talked to two SRM veterens who haven't cleaned their match rifles for over 500 rounds!

(I beat them at the last few matches.... )

I have had a couple of barrels do as you are describing.

They did not start acting that way until they were near worn out.

iceman,
Throw all of your good sense out the window (like I did) and trade that triple-deuce for a .17 caliber rifle with a 26" barrel. After seizing up your first patch about 2" past the chamber, busting you cleaning rod and your knuckles on your left hand, and screaming expletives, you won't give a S#IT about accuracy. Just blow the fouling out with the next round!

It's amazing how much "fowling" you can get out of a .177 bore with a .204 diameter cleaning rod and a 2" round patch.

GWB

I'll have to try that out, GWB. I ended up filing the back 2 flanges on my cleaning jag down, and cutting the corners on my .17 cal patches to make an octagon shape, before I could get them all the way through the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
It's amazing how much "fowling" you can get out of a .177 bore with a .204 diameter cleaning rod and a 2" round patch.

GWB

....and a hammer.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
It's amazing how much "fowling" you can get out of a .177 bore with a .204 diameter cleaning rod and a 2" round patch.

GWB

....and a hammer.

LMAO

quote:

Posted 14 February 2011 17:44
What is the average amount of shots it should take to fowl a barrel after a thorough cleaning?

Good shotgun, proper lead on the bird, one shot, one fowl. Ohhhhhhh wait! That's the Shotgun Forum.

The worst barrel I have takes 6 or 7 shots for the groups to tighten after a thorough cleaning and many I have shoot just as good after a thorough as after the barrel has been fouled.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
The worst barrel I have takes 6 or 7 shots for the groups to tighten after a thorough cleaning and many I have shoot just as good after a thorough as after the barrel has been fouled.

This has been my experience, I am wondering if the barrel is beginning to fade away. After 30 shots the group comes down to good. Once i clean it it's all over again until i shoot a box and a half again.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think mine shoot best squeeky cleeeeen!

+1 Pristine clean is the best for me. Then after that "First" shot, it is ready to be cleaned, lightly lubed, and wiped dry with a couple of Paper Patches. It is the best way I know to get consistent Shot-to-Shot results.

quote:

I just talked to two SRM veterens who haven't cleaned their match rifles for over 500 rounds! (I beat them at the last few matches.... )

Yeah, those Fouled Barrels are great to - shoot against!!!

quote:

Oh know, you have opened Pandora's box!

Then add 22 rf to the mix, they can really give you fits!

I never fowl a barrel before shooting groups or hunting with it. I have never owned a rifle that needed a fowled barrel before shooting groups, but I break in a barrel to prevent as much fowling as possible to begin with.

What The, Thats quite the cleaning regimen. I'm not going to say mine is that complex, but i clean them pretty good and fully disassemble them. I think every guy i talk to uses somthing different whether it be oils, defouling agent, bore paste etc. I knew this would open the worms but i like to hear what works for other people.

I can't say I've ever seen a squeeky clean rifle shoot repeatedly first and second shot. Perhaps I just haven't had enough exposure?
roger

I have found, that if you have a good barrel, and the last "Juice" you put in the barrel, and then dry it out, is Prolix, then you first shot should hit true with shots 2 through 100.

Give it a try...

www.prolixlubricant.com

That's beacuse by the time your groups are below an inch you've been practicing for a while

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have found, that if you have a good barrel, and the last "Juice" you put in the barrel, and then dry it out, is Prolix, then you first shot should hit true with shots 2 through 100

I'm also a Prolix user. I agree that the first shot will hit true after using it but not necessairly with the 2 shots through 100 though I have a couple of barrels that will probably do that. Another good product with similar performance though at greater cost is Microlon Gun Juice.

It depends on the gun, but usually 2 or 3 shots will foul the bore. I had a 220 Swift that took one shot to get it straightened out.

I quit using Breakfree CLP in my bores long ago because it has so much teflon and is so slippery that it took a minimum of 15 shots to get the gun settled down. I quit using Breakfree and now I need 1 - 3 shots for all of my guns to settle in.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
It depends on the gun, but usually 2 or 3 shots will foul the bore. I had a 220 Swift that took one shot to get it straightened out.

I quit using Breakfree CLP in my bores long ago because it has so much teflon and is so slippery that it took a minimum of 15 shots to get the gun settled down. I quit using Breakfree and now I need 1 - 3 shots for all of my guns to settle in.

Thats what i've been using. It took 20 shots to get a descent group, and 25 to see no more change. Maybe that's part of my problem. This gun hasn't been fired since i started using it and i have reoiled it numerous times without cleaning it fully cause it has just sat in my safe. Maybe it had layers built up.When it was put away it was thoroughly cleaned and oiled with clp and just further coats of oil as it sat. Thats why i started this thread. Thanks, I'm going to thoroughly clean the bore and use somthing else and try it. When i cleaned it to try again i didn't defoul it so i thought it was that cause it took less shots. Worth a try.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I'm also a Prolix user. ...with similar performance though at greater cost is Microlon Gun Juice.

Does the Velocity increase when using them?

Though I've never measured velocity after using Prolix or Microlon Gun Juice, since the POI doesn't change and the group sizes are similar from a fouled barrel vs one freshly cleaned (in most instances) I would surmise that velocity doesn't change significantly.

Back several years ago, when I was still using oil in the bores of my barrels, the usual thing was for the first shots out of the barrel to be high with the group sizes larger than after a few shots.

Thanks. The reason I asked was that I'd seen on the Microlon web site that Velocity increased in a 22LR and eventually stabilized. The only thing they never reported was "How often did it need to be reapplied?" Since they didn't consider that information something that anyone would want to know(or perhaps wanted to keep in the dark), I never tried the Microlon.

Did look for it at the last Gun Show I went to and most of the people had no clue what I was asking about. Finally found one Senior Lady selling cleaning supplies that had some at one time, but it had been a slow mover. But, she had none when I asked.

How often do you reapply the Microlon? Do you just order it off the net from their web site?

Microlon is advertised as tightening groups when enough has been applied to a barrel. I have no hard evidence of this but my impression is that accuracy improves with its use. As far as reapplication is concerned, Microlon recommendes a thorough barrel cleaning, application of Microlon, taking a shot promptly through the barrel, cleaning again, shooting again through the barrel with freshly applied Microlon and repeating for 10 times for a regular and 20 times for a stainless steel barrel. Once treated, the barrel probably won't ever require more treatment.

What I do, is clean the barrel thoroughly, apply Microlon, shoot some, run 2 or 3 Microlon patches through the gun (until the patches come out clean), put the gun away and then shoot the next time I get around to it without further application of Microlon. It takse more time this way but is more convinient for me.

You can order Microlon online or by phone. If you tell them you're a return customer, you'll probably get a discount.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
...Microlon recommendes a thorough barrel cleaning, application of Microlon, taking a shot promptly through the barrel, cleaning again, shooting again through the barrel with freshly applied Microlon and repeating for 10 times for a regular and 20 times for a stainless steel barrel. Once treated, the barrel probably won't ever require more treatment. ...

That is exactly what I was wondering about.

I use Moly in most all my CenterFires. I have a 444Mar that I've not used Moly in that would be a candidate for the Microlon.

Thanks for the info.

quote:

Originally posted by icemanls2:
What The, Thats quite the cleaning regimen. I'm not going to say mine is that complex, but i clean them pretty good and fully disassemble them. I think every guy i talk to uses somthing different whether it be oils, defouling agent, bore paste etc. I knew this would open the worms but i like to hear what works for other people.

I don't think it's a can of worms because for the most part everyone in their own right, is right. I think Pandora's box is a better quibe because everyone is going to chip in their 2 cents, which isn't a bad thing either and why this forum is here. Of the 5 ranges I frequent, I know around 30 match shooter's and not one shares the same method. Some will hit the bench and throw 3 or 4 rounds down range and return to their cleaning station to do a "quick clean" then head back. Some will throw 10 to 20 before their quick clean while others throw 30 to 40 and on and on. The same applies for fouling shots, some guys 2 or 3, others 4 or 5 and some up to a dozen. There is no wrong with any of this, the chemicals they use or the method in cleaning itself, it's just what those fellows found that works for them and their equipment. One thing that is for sure and something I think we all look forward to and it applies to every range I happen to be at and that is; at the end of the day, we all find ourselves jawing side by side doing our final and complete clean. Again this takes about an hour or so and can go on for much longer depending on how much B.S'n is going on. The funny thing is that no one comments on anyone's cleaning because they know that person has his $hit together and would rather talk about the next match, his kids or whatever happens to be the topic at the moment. The smell of fine cigar smoke is always present and this comradeship is why many of us are there to start with, 25 to 85 year old guys jawing away like we were all back in the high school locker room! How do you top that?

quote:

I can't say I've ever seen a squeaky clean rifle shoot repeatedly first and second shot. Perhaps I just haven't had enough exposure?

Well Roger I've been exposed in more places on more continents than most ,an I've not seen it either .

Some of you are obsessive in regard to cleaning bores , WTH are you some of you shooting , horse manure mixed with tallow an mercuric fulminate pinched with 4Fg a little sand and oil ???.

Below are the most common Element residues encountered ,within a bore which has had cartridges fired through it .

Al, Ca, Cl, Cu, Fe, K, Mg, P, S, Si, Ti,Pb ,Zn,Sn

FYI; It's why every tom dick an weary formulates cleaning concoctions , to SAVE YOUR ELBOWS . Allow cleaning chemicals induction time !!.

Everybody cleans differently an with different chemical concoctions types of brushes paste rags patches Etc. ,with any an all combination's !.

I use a rifle cradle which sets level upon my bench . I then can position my rifle upright left side right side and upside down .

I simply lather up an undersized bore mop with slop ,then with a bore guide push it through ,unscrew once out side the muzzle replace with a small polymer ball pull it back through . I do this 4 times ,an each time turning my rifle and wait 8-10 minutes . I then stroke the brass brush through ,unscrew rinse it in solvent and screw my poly ball onto the rod an pull back repeat 6-8 times normally . Now 4 more times with a fresh solvent rinsed mop of Proper size while turning my rifle as before . Dry patch a jag through maybe 8-16 times an all is clean . I use Dewey rods and had a friend make me a reverse jag . Once out side the muzzle unscrew normal jag ,replace with reverse jag draw back through the bore. I ALWAYS use a fresh patch either direction . Finished with a light kroil patch or gun oil depending on length of storage . It's quite effective and fairly quick ,I'm not as concerned with bore foul as I am with Rifling fouling .As I've polished most all of my bores ,however the Rifling is not quite as easy to polish !!!.

Again this is very subjective but I find that I can get about 30 to 40 rounds down the tube before I start to see a measurable decline in accuracy.

Different calibers and different barrels become fouled at different rates.

I usually clean my 223 AR-15 competition Service Rifle after each Across the Course Match of 88 shots unless it is a two day afair and then I clean it at the end of two days worth of competition.

I clean my Anschutz 22 Rimfire target rifle bore after approx 500 shots or if it starts getting goofy on me, which is seldom.

I clean my Anschutz target Air Rifle bore once a year no matter how many thousands of shots went down range.

I clean my centerfire hunting rifles the same day that I shoot them unless the season is still open; I clean them at the end of the season regardless.

I have gone back to plain old Hoppes #9 and it is the plain old Hoppes #9 in glass bottles. I used to clean my AR-15 with Breakfree CLP but found that it was taking a minimum of 15 shots, sometimes many more to get the group sizes back down. I am not exagerrating by saying it shot all over the place, larger than 6 MOA @ 100 yards until you shot all of that Breakfree CLP out of the bore. This is real world experience, not hearsay. I just used the CLP because I am retired military and hate cleaning those carbon infested AR-15 guns and it cut the carbone pretty well. Then I had an epiphany: I am not in the Army anymore. The daggone AR doesn't have to be carbon free!

I have a Riger 7 Mag that take about 20 rounds to settle down after cleaning.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a Riger 7 Mag that take about 20 rounds to settle down after cleaning.

You missed the U ,Frank. Bore sight your key board. roger