My nephew and great nephew came down today. Great nephew is a year or two too small. Just not big enough to sight through a scope. A fairly small spike came in, maybe 100 pounder and my nephew shot it. This one ran 40-50 yards and piled up dead. There was no blood trail. The entrance and exit holes were about same size. It was shot through lungs and probably ran about a lung full of air. It was a 55 grain bullet, either a Remington or a Winchester bulk packed bullet. You don't need a heavy bullet and you don't need a premium bullet. This bullet would be comparable to a Remington Core Lokt. Rifle was a CZ.

Congratulations to your small great nephew

Just a reminder that one data point does not prove any point, either positive of negative.

Clarence

Twice I have gotten rid of rifles chambered in .243 because they just didn't kill as "clean" as larger calibers.

However, there is a reason for doing what you did and I commend you for introducing the young one to shooting and hunting. Many young or small statured kids have a tough time with recoil, a long heavy rifle, and/or a scope. I see nothing wrong with letting them use a .223, .30 carbine, or some other small cartridge as long as it is legal, the shots are close, and there is an adult willing to prevent loss of an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by ClaMar:
Just a reminder that one data point does not prove any point, either positive of negative.

Clarence

Oh come now. This is the internet. Once is a trend, twice is proven fact, three times is gospel.

quote:

Originally posted by ClaMar:
Just a reminder that one data point does not prove any point, either positive of negative.

Clarence

While I agree with you, there is one spike deer that would disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

Oh come now. This is the internet. Once is a trend, twice is proven fact, three times is gospel.

"87% of internet facts are wrong"
-Abraham Lincoln

this ain't Ray's first time doing this.

I would say the bullets performance is everything I would expect from any other caliber I shoot.
a nice entrance, damage to the interior and a nice exit wound [about 5 times the calibers diameter]
there is no animal on the planet that is just gonna shrug that type of terminal performance off and just walk away.

tell your nephew congrats from me.
and one to yourself for choosing the proper equipment for the situation.

The deer must not read the forums or it would know that a 223 will not kill a deer.

quote:

I see nothing wrong with letting them use a .223, .30 carbine, or some other small cartridge as long as it is legal, the shots are close, and there is an adult willing to prevent loss of an animal.

That sums it up quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

I see nothing wrong with letting them use a .223, .30 carbine, or some other small cartridge as long as it is legal, the shots are close, and there is an adult willing to prevent loss of an animal.

That sums it up quite well.

I'd turn my daughter loose any day of the week with her .223 and 55 grain TSX on any deer, without hesitation or needing to be there to back her up. I've got more trust in her to make a better decision on a shot than I do most other hunters, and they don't have to be all short range shots. She likes to shoot a .300 Savage now, but she'd take her little .223 out against any deer and she'd be successful.

While I do own a .30 Carbine rifle, it's just fun toy at the range. I see no need to even try it on deer, especially since it doesn't have any range compared to the .223. Though I'm sure my .300 Blackout will get a go one of these days.

IMO kids are less likely to make a bad shot with a rifle they can shoot well. The only reason I'd ever need to backup my daughter is because I forced her to shoot something she wasn't comfortable with. It doesn't take a whole lot to kill a deer, I just prefer the TSX/TTSX because that allows a lot more shot choices on game with light bullets.

My post may be misleading in that the nephew that shot this deer is not a youth, he is the father of the great nephew that was just too small to shoot now. The nephew is a pharmacist and is a veteran. He served six years in the Army as a Captain. He used the .223 as he, like me, has seen enough deer shot with a .223 to know the real question is why not. His older son shot a couple of bucks with that .223 and with my .222.
This deer did run, which seems to happen often times when the lungs only are taken out. Thinking back, when heart or liver or both taken out, they may walk a short distance. Best I recall out of numerous .22 cal shot deer, one other, a doe shot with a .222 made the 40 yards or so death run. Another one shot with a 22-250 walked maybe 30 yards. All the rest didn't go 10 feet. If a bullet, regardless of caliber goes through the vitals, that deer is going to die close to the spot where that happened.
Take a youth out and let them shoot the rifle a few times to get comfortable with it. Then the question becomes, could they hit a basketball at that distance. Seems with their young eyes, they can. Wait until the presentation is right. An older or experienced hunter can't do a thing the youth is unable to do. They can't hook, slice , spin or put English on the bullet any different than the kid does.

ClarMar, I fully agree with you that one data point proves nothing. It was a very long time ago when I only had one data point on this subject to draw from. I've found that in almost all cases, if a person says either use a heavy bullet or a PREMIUM bullet, most likely they have no real experience to draw from, but have probably shot many with their keyboard.

Where is Kabluewy? He hasn't posted in over a year. This topic usually brings him out.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Where is Kabluewy? He hasn't posted in over a year. This topic usually brings him out.

I was thinking the same thing. We could use some 6.5 Grendal talk.

Scott, you got your deer this year? If so what cannon urr uh rifle you use? I don't think you are convinced yet that a .22 cal will do it.

I'm not going to ascribe any magic qualities to a .223, but on my ranch I've personally seen over a dozen deer killed dead as a hammer with a .223 64 gr Powerpoint, all one shot kills, several bang-flops. To me, the .223 is kind of the 28 ga of the rifle world, it seems to do more with less.

I've got a friend who probably has killed hundreds of deer with a .223. I told him he shouldn't be using such a light round for his hunting and he had a real good laugh at that one.

They will do the job with reasonable shot placement, period. Anyone who thinks they won't has either never used one, never been around one, is some internet "expert" reading the ballistic tables, or is just plain dumb. Perfect deer cartridge? Of course not, but to vilify someone who uses them is simply a display of ignorance.

I can and have taken a kid who has barely shot a BB gun before and in a few minutes have him deer accuracy adequate with a .223. The very minimal recoil, using a gun that fits a younger shooter and explaining simply how to shoot a deer works.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

While I do own a .30 Carbine rifle, it's just fun toy at the range. I see no need to even try it on deer, especially since it doesn't have any range compared to the .223. Though I'm sure my .300 Blackout will get a go one of these days.

I am not advocating the .30 carbine as the cartridge of choice for deer. However, the 5.2 pound carbine and 13" LOP make it easy enough for kids to handle. Don't be too quick to discount the carbine cartridge at close range. The bad rap the .30 Carbine got was primarily because of ball ammo. With ball ammo the .30 Carbine bullet will over-penetrate and pass on through and its low velocity makes a small diameter wound channel. But a soft point bullet creates a wider wound channel and expends much or all of its energy in the target. The .30 Carbine has almost twice the muzzle velocity and three times the muzzle energy of the .32-20 from a Winchester 92. And anyone who thinks a .357 magnum pistol is adequate for hunting deer should take a look at the ballistics of the .30 Carbine to see just how close they are to that handgun round. I am not advocating using a .357 Mag pistol, a .32-20 rifle, or a .30 Carbine to hunt deer in any situation where the shooter can handle a more substantial firearm and cartridge. But, for a young kid the .30 Carbine can be a viable close range choice.

My 12 year old Grandson shot his first buck this year with a .204 Ruger in a New England Firearms single shot. 117 (ranged before the shot)yards. It went about 20 yds. and piled up, jellied the heart and lungs. Good kid round, low recoil and noise level.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott, you got your deer this year? If so what cannon urr uh rifle you use? I don't think you are convinced yet that a .22 cal will do it.

I've only been out once for 4 days. I plan on going again on the 1st. I didn't see anything with all the acorns. I'm pretty sure no whitetail this year for me so I could probably hunt with a sling shot. I journeyed down to the Mountain Home in June for a free range Axis hunt and shot a nice buck so it was a good year already. I brought my trusty 338 Federal with 180 Ballistic Tips mainly because it shoots so well. Spot & stalk and shooting from sticks was a fun change from sitting in a blind and watching squirrels eat my corn.

Scott, would that be Mountain Home Texas? If so you were sorta in my neighborhood.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott, would that be Mountain Home Texas? If so you were sorta in my neighborhood.

Yes, it was at the Leinweber ranch which was amazing. I think it's about 5,000 acres and there are so many Axis that move through the canyons and valleys on that ranch. I saw a lot of Axis in the 3 days I hunted there. Saw at least a 50 blackbuck on another Lenweber ranch about 25 miles away. That place was 3,000 acres and just full of blackbuck. I knew there were free range exotics roaming that part of Texas but had no idea how established the Axis populations was.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

While I do own a .30 Carbine rifle, it's just fun toy at the range. I see no need to even try it on deer, especially since it doesn't have any range compared to the .223. Though I'm sure my .300 Blackout will get a go one of these days.

I am not advocating the .30 carbine as the cartridge of choice for deer. However, the 5.2 pound carbine and 13" LOP make it easy enough for kids to handle. Don't be too quick to discount the carbine cartridge at close range. The bad rap the .30 Carbine got was primarily because of ball ammo. With ball ammo the .30 Carbine bullet will over-penetrate and pass on through and its low velocity makes a small diameter wound channel. But a soft point bullet creates a wider wound channel and expends much or all of its energy in the target. The .30 Carbine has almost twice the muzzle velocity and three times the muzzle energy of the .32-20 from a Winchester 92. And anyone who thinks a .357 magnum pistol is adequate for hunting deer should take a look at the ballistics of the .30 Carbine to see just how close they are to that handgun round. I am not advocating using a .357 Mag pistol, a .32-20 rifle, or a .30 Carbine to hunt deer in any situation where the shooter can handle a more substantial firearm and cartridge. But, for a young kid the .30 Carbine can be a viable close range choice.

I have no doubts that the carbine will kill a deer just fine, I just felt the .223 was the better option since I had both. I just had a .223 cut down to a 12.5 LOP and 20" barrel. At about 6.5 lbs scoped it was an easy rifle for my 9 year old (at that time) daughter to handle and begin hunting with. It also extended the range quite a bit over the .30 Carbine, and the TSX bullet she uses will penetrate from any reasonable angle to the vitals. I just felt the .223 was less of a compromise.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Where is Kabluewy? He hasn't posted in over a year. This topic usually brings him out.

I was thinking the same thing. We could use some 6.5 Grendal talk.

Since last visit here, my cousin and another Alaska friend have converted to the 6.5 Grendel and my brother-in-law quit using his 30-06 and borrows my 77 Ruger chambered in 6.5 Grendel when he hunts deer.

My shooting eye got a cataract so I didn't hunt at all this season. I'm back in Alaska working anyway. Ready to retire again soon hopefully, and take up fishing on the Georgia coast during the cool months, and SE Alaska all summer.

Season before last I got into hog hunting. Got a lot of pictures on the trail camera. Some really big boars and large sows too. Got three using my AR10 in 308. I used it because I could still see well enough to use the red dot Leupold 2x7 and that's what was on the AR10. The Grendel would have worked just as good.

Best Regards everyone.

Can't see the problem personally - I have shot over 3000 springbok with a 223. (Usually around 150 a night during a single market cull).

Granted head shots attributed to 99.9% of the kills, Impala also fell to 223 in similar operations - a Sako 85 BBl lasted around 2700 shots before it started loosing some accuracy.

win PP's get the job done. this is the only large animal I've killed with the 223. strangely...my best deer

Can it be done? Sure. Does one have to be careful? Absolutely.

Last month, I went to one of my leases. I intended to being my 270 but got my 243 instead. The guns are identical. There I was stuck . I went back to bed. I woke up and remembered my AR under the back seat(no soft targets around here). I jumped up grabbed it and a magazine and took off.

After a short while, a buck shows ( a damn nice buck for these parts at that). He is at extreme range of 10 yards. I ease the safety off and shoot. Hell, I could see the bullet hit. It was perfect. I was 100% confident I would find him. I was wrong. The magazine was loaded with hollow points. With a different bullet, I have no doubt he would have been dead in short order.

One has to be much more careful with a marginal caliber.

Carpetman,

I wasn't trying to make a point that a .223 wouldn't kill a deer-sized animal, but that bullet placement/construction is very important.

I knew a guy who shot a deer with a .222 mag with 40 gr. Hornady VMAX. He didn't find it until the next day, and then only because he looked hard in a very small fenced enclosure. It had died in a pond.

I have some 55 and 62 gr. Barnes TTSX loaded and would not hesitate to harvest a deer with a well-placed shot with either of them.

Clarence

For the last 2 years, I have hunted with a wildlife biologist on cull hunts. We both use 223s. I shoot 55 grain SP bulk ammo, he shoots subsonics thru a silencer. Neither of us have lost any, his count is in the hundreds. We mainly take neck shots within 100 yards. If I was on a trophy or exotic hunt, I would switch to my 6mm Rem.

Clarence--Name me a cartridge that shot placement/construction is not important. A bad shot with a magnum is a bad shot. Despite what you might have been told at the gun counter or read on the internet, you can't just hit em anywhere with a magnum. I had a bad experience with a cast bullet in .243. No doubt in my mind had it been a jacketed cup and core, the deer would have been harvested. Many will say the bullet I use is inadequate, but bunches of deer later, I can't agree with them.

Hey Kabluewy long time. Good to see you back on here.

Carpetman,

I agree. With the .223, it's possibly a bit more of an issue in that some folks would try to use bullets completely unsuited for the task.

Given a properly constructed bullet and good shot placement, the caliber of the rifle is not very important.

Clarence

I'm a fan, you might say.....

Ive shot so many deer and seen so many deer shot with hi velocity 22s and mostly the 60 gr. Hornadys in HP and SP, that I consider them excellent choices with behind the shoulder shots up to about 100 yards give or take 50 yards, and even 200 under ideal conditions. I have also used this combo to cull Springbok, and other PG, the largest being Kudu cows best I recall.

The problem being, poor blood trails, and poor placement, or improper bullets, and last of all poor hunting practices..

First of all I would recommend using them in open country, using your head when a shot is "iffy" and passing on it. avoid head and neck shots, and use the heart and double lung shots. Don't extend shots that are beyond say 150 yards broadside as a rule of thumb, Same on Antelope.

You are hunting at a disadvantage, so be aware of that at all times. otherwise don't use a 223 or a 220 swift for that matter.

I have only seen one deer escape wounded with the hot 22s and that was a high shoulder shot at about 25 yards, they guy thought he would spine shoot that deer, even though he was told to take a heart lung shot..

That said I have seen deer wounded with much larger caliber in my lifetime..always misplaced bullets and a few bullet failures tossed in.