I have an ertswhile "know it all" acquaintance that I have hunted with on occasion in the past who claims he has used a .243 on many WT deer. (Now he hunts with a 30-06) His claim is that you want a .243 bullet that does not penetrate through the animal as it dumps it energy inside and results in a quicker kill. Another mutual acquaintance who hunts with him killed two last year with a Savage 99 in .243 with 80 grain Remington soft point bullets, one a nice 8 point. I think his claim is risky business, I want two holes to be sure, is this right or wrong?

I've been hunting with my son now for the past few years. He hunts with a .308 and low recoil loads. I have yet to see a bullet go through any of his animal's that were shot.
He has now shot 2 boar, 6 whitetails and one ram. Nothing has taken a second shot. So, either he is that good a shot (which he is) or there is something to be said about the bullet transfering all it's energy inside and not exiting.
I've alomst shot as many animal's as him, all with higher power calibers and they all shoot through. Most of my animals don't die quite as fast as his.
We have been together most of the times these animals were shot so we have both seen this happen together.
Maybe there's something to this train of thought.

I agree with the theory. I have a Savage 99 in .300 savage, and it will not always exit, but just slams Whitetails and ferral hogs. Lots of energy transfer, and I like that the animal goes down hard and fast. I even use this theory on geese concerning steel shot. Slower shells seem to knock the birds off their flight, and have had fewer birds fly a half mile away and then die in the air.

that discussion has been going on for years, probably started with roy weatherby

If you are using a rifle with enough power and something like a partition bullet you can have the best of both worlds.

Total energy transfere, however, allows you to study the bullet upset or deformation.-

Twice a long time was spent (hours) finding wounded deer because there was no blood trail. Both times the bullets erupted just under the entrance to the hide.One deer was hit 4 times with a 22-250 and the other with a well placed shot from a 25-06 IMP. WRONG BULLETS. Both deer were recovered but I guess the adrenaline rouined the meat. roger

I find myself going full circle back to the NP's as well. They dump a lot of energy into the target.

What counts is the amount of trauma caused to the vital organs.

If the cause of a bullet's exit of the body is due to deep penetration because of lack of expansion, then it may fail to greatly traumatize organs like the lungs, heart, etc., allowing the game to live longer and travel further. The "flip" side is that if a bullet expands too rapidly and penetrates poorly, then it may deliver its trauma too shallow and likewise fail to disrupt the vitals to an optimal degree.

Obviously, what we strive for is a bullet that will penetrate to the vitals and deliver signficant trauma at that level. If it does this, then it is irrelavent whether it exits the body or not (except for those who enjoy the secondary sport of trailing wounded animals for extended distances and like a "good blood trail" to follow. These chaps, of course, prefer a bullet that expands poorly and always exits, as they regard there to be little sport in simply walking up to game that drops on the spot or within sight due to the use of a properly expanding bullet. They will pay as much as a dollar a bullet or more to ensure that their bullet deforms as little as possible and only delivers enough trauma as it passes through the vitals to kill the animal after the animal has led them on a merry and gratifying chase.)

Clearly, the same bullet cannot provide optimal performance on both a broadside shot on a 120 pound whitetail and an steeply-angled shot on an 800 pound elk. That is why nearly any ordinary cup-and-core bullet does an excellent job on the whitetail, and it is wise to spend a few extra cents for a bullet like a Partition or some of the bonded cores for elk hunting.

For 95% of the American hunters afield, "big game" means whitetails. There has been so much brainwashing about "premium bullets" that many hunters think that "premium bullets" must kill whitetails "better" and are, in fact, almost necessary to gather your yearly rasher of venison. This is unfortunate, in that the specialty bullets for truly big game that sell for that magic $1 per round figure typically do a poorer job on whitetails than the simple copper-wrapped chunk of lead that your granddaddy killed all of his deer with.

I think that for most hunting cartridges, you would be hard pressed to find a bullet that would constently penetrate enough to kill well and not pass thru a deer. I've shot a lot of deer and been around a lot more shot and in 45+yrs have only recovered two bullet's fired by cartridges I'd concider for deer.

If you start looking for a bullet that will stay inside a deer you'll find a bullet to soft to penetrate well at higher velocity and closer range.

I think its a great subject to discuss when there's nothing else to do. Folks angst to much about one hole or two and the need for a blood trail that looks like a line down a highway. With a PROPER bullet placed near a proper spot, one hole or two becomes moot. If you're shooting for the exit hole, whether the bullet goes thru or not, the deer should drop at the shot or within sight of where he was standing when shot. If you're merely shooting for the big middle (folks talk about the double lung shot like its the golden grail), then you need to worry about the bullet going all the way thru and leaving a blood trail anyone could follow. For what its worth, a high double lung shot deer can run a long ways without leaving a blood trail as the blood is puddling inside of the chest and lungs.

Good post Don. If a bullet does not consistently exit, then how can you be sure that it will always penetrate? I have shot several deer with the .243, but no more. I have had this discussion on other forums. I am not saying that a .243 will not kill deer, hell, Bell killed elephants with a 7 x57. If it is all you have, then use it with good bullets in the 90+ grain range preferrably Barnes or Nosler. It bothers me that people tout it as a great deer cartridge and then you have someone with no experience running out and buying it as the do-all gun. It is adequate with good bullets and good shots, but I want something where I can take a bad angle shot or real long shot and know that the bullet will penetrate. I have not yet had a deer stop my .308 or 7 mag loads from any reasonable range, and I have had 6mm and .243 loads often fail to exit.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
... I want two holes to be sure, is this right or wrong?

Hey Jimmy, I prefer 2-holes myself due to our Southern terrain, and especially if I'm using a smaller caliber. Unless the Spine or Brain is hit, there is ALWAYS the chance that the Deer "might" run off.

When that does happen, it sure is nice to have a Blood Trail. But even with 2-holes sometimes the innards block the holes, which cuts off the blood flow.

Until a person experiences our Southern Swamps and Woods with the extremely dense under-story, it is difficult for them to imagine a Deer can be dead 3' from you and you can't see it.

So, I also want both an Entrance and a nice Exit with preference for both to be Low in opposite Shoulders.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills to all you folks.

This "know it all" that I know hunts down south now but he is from the North East, maybe the conditions are different there?? I have become real opinionated about it myself, I plan on hunting with the nice .243 I bought but it will be loaded with Nosler or Barnes bullets and I will shoot them thru the high shoulders or neck if that shot presents. I generally hate finding lost deer especially at night and this is when this usually happens or better yet in the rain at night...

I've hunted with the 243 and Nosler partitions and they performed well for me. I like an expanding bullet that makes two holes. On general principle I would rather have too much gun than just barely enough.

A blood trail was great when I hunted Minnesota and Wisconsin.. with snow on the ground...

With the foliage changing color during deer season here in Oregon.. I'd rather it expend all the energy inside the animal...

Blood trails are harder to follow on foliage just turning red on brush, and then especially if it is raining....

I do miss hunting in the snow for that reason...


something that I would like to add, is that my son is currently going thru Hunter Ed here in Oregon.. at the class last night, the instructor, told the kids, which is in the Education Guide, that when they shoot a deer or Elk, they recommend that the kids stay put where they are at for 30 minutes before approaching the game...

the reason they said, was that if hit and animal will lay down, and won't be inclined to run, like it would if it was approached after being wounded...

I sure never heard this one before!

My initial thoughts were what dumbass thought of this.... a wounded deer could be half way to Palm Springs in 30 minutes....

anyone else buy into this rationale?

animals hit hard will lay down quickly and expire. I have tracked a bunch hit with archery equipment, that we got on too fast. Kicked them up out of were they were bedded. most time if you back out quietly, they will be piled up close by. Keep pushing them and you will cover some country. Adreniline is an evil drug on both sides. I always wait for at least 15-20minutes if I do not get a bang flop, mostly everything is found inside 100yards, even on less than perfect hits. Longer if I know I screwed the pooch and F ed up on the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

anyone else buy into this rationale?

Almost! A lot of us grew up with the thought that if you shot a deer and he goes down after running some to just relax and have a cigarette and let him stiffen up before going after him.

Did this often and one time the buck did get up when approached but just could not move out. My 14 year old partner dispatched him with a 30-30 to the neck. His first deer was a 6 point (Western count) Mule deer.

Maybe you should talk to the Hunter Ed. guy and see first hand what the original intent [Meaning] of his message was. roger

Seafire,
Most guys that bowhunt do that and it is good practice as it gives the deer a chance to bed down and bleed out. Gun hunters are never taught this as the thought is that if you do kick a wounded deer up you can shoot it again. Not that easy with a bow. I was always taught to get on a deer right away and see what sign you have. If you have the signs of a gut shot deer wait at least an hour before taking up the trail but for other hits follow up on it. I have never seen signs of hitting a deer in the guts so I have always got right on there trail.

I like to find the bullet under the skin on the off side, have seen video where the bullet will actually "push the skin out" and there is enough elasticity to stretch and not make an exit wound. But, I like to see what the bullet looks like; and that's just me.

Rich
DRSS

Seafire,

What you are talking about is pretty much the accepted practice over here. Just sit and wait for 20 or 30 minutes and let the beast settle and allow the internal damage to do it's work.

Time to smoke a cigarette is about the average, that way by the time you get after the beast it will be dead and not hear you coughing and wheezing from the smoking.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
have seen video where the bullet will actually "push the skin out" and there is enough elasticity to stretch and not make an exit wound.

I have personally witness this. roger

I was raised on the "wait a while" theory. And its a good one. But it also depends on where you hunt. On a lot of the public hunting grounds of the east coast, if you wait 30 minutes, the deer may well be in the back of someone else's truck.

I wait awhile, I wait quite awhile when bow hunting. The theory on a bullet, "expelling all it's energy in the animal", Could it be that those loads and calibers have a lot less energy to start with. I just wanted to bring that up as I haven't heard it before. Or, If you shoot something big enough maybe your 300 ROY will expell all it's energy inside. I think it is placement and timing. Remember in football when sometimes you got tackled it about knocked you out and then other times you didn't feel it. We had a doctor tell us that it depended where we were in our breath cycle. Being football players we didn't remember much more than that sentence but I heard a guy on a hunting show once talk about hitting a deer when it is inhaling or exhaling. He said if it is exhaling the probabliities of a DRT deer increases.

I "defy" any North American Deer to take a shot through the heart/lungs from a 243 that is using a proper Hunting bullet and have said Deer live for 9 more seconds!
It just ain't gonna happen!
Most all of the Deer and Antelope I have shot with my various 243's (through the heart/lungs!) have been down and out in 5 seconds and less - some were nearly instantaneous kills!
The 243 Winchester is a great Deer/Antelope round and all the Hunter using it has to be is SMART enough, not to try "iffy" shots with it! Simply shoot the Deer/Antelope size creature through the heart/lungs and go collect them!
Someone above mentioned "long range" and "bad angle" shots contending that with more powerful cartridges these "obstacles" will "automatically be overcome" with the Magnum!
Rest assured gentle nimrods the use of Magnums DOES NOT MEAN A BAD SHOT WILL AUTOMATICALLY HARVEST THE DEER!
It won't!
I have been Hunting Deer/Antelope/Bear/Elk/Mt. Goats/Moose/Cougar for 48 years now! I have seen a lot of Magnum type cartridges fail to perform ANY miracles!
A true sportsman should NEVER take a "bad angle shot"! Nor should a true sportsman take a shot that is "to long" for his capabilities or his ammunitions abilities. I have killed Antelope at 400+ yards on several ocassions with 24 caliber Rifles including the 243 Winchester!
But I am smart enough and patient enough to wait for a clear shot at the animals heart/lung area! The results for me have always been cleanly harvested Deer/Antelope!
Place a proper bullet from a 243 into the heart/lung area of a Deer ("pass through" or not!) and you can walk over to said Deer, immediately - and as you walk you can start planning on fresh liver and onions for supper!
Period!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

hell, Bell killed elephants with a 7 x57

The above statement sums up volumes of information. There is no such thing as being prepared for any shot that presents itself; at least not with one cartridge. When Bell loaded a 175 grain FMJ into his 7x57 he knew beforehand what shot he would take; he knew the bullets capabilities and he set his personal parameters around that one target area, to deviate from the plan could cost him his life. If you are loaded with a fast expanding, frangible bullet you basically limit yourself to two responsible target choices for whitetails; direct spinal or behind the shoulder heart/lung shot. If you have a heavy bonded or partition load, you can penetrate the shoulder bone or a generous amount of muscle to expand the bullet, but lung/heart/liver shots too far rearward of the shoulder will not likely initiate enough expansion to insure a quick kill. Even if the bullet “pencils†completely through leaving an exit wound, chances are that insufficient damage will be inflicted on the vitals for a quick kill. It’s sorta like shooting a field point arrow, very little nervous system shock and minimal devastation to the vital organs. With proper shot placement, the .243 is lethal on whitetails, with poor placement; a humane kill is unlikely with any caliber. If you put the proper bullet in the proper location, the deer will drop quickly, with or without an exit hole.

Dave

a honest question that I have is "why do so many people that hunt look down on the .243"

Seafire, I hunt Northern MN (Da Range) and I was taught many years ago to always "wait" if the deer takes off running after the shot.

I am hunting with several young hunters and shot placement isn't always the best. Nothing worse then tracking that big Whitetail through the swamp only to here him get up and run just ahead of you. Then walking up to a bed full of blood. As you know it's plenty cold here during deer season. Let them bed down and stiffen up.

Jimmy,

Your question deserves an honest answer, and as a fan of the .243/6mm, I’ll try to give you my explanation based upon the debates I’ve had on the subject. First let me say I like the cartridge because of the rifles that I’ve used with them, lightweight, quick handling & comfortable to shoot. Secondly, I enjoy the intense challenge of forcing myself to hunt in a way that is based more on adventure rather than efficiency. The .243 is one of the least powerful of legal deer cartridges; compared to other popular rounds it is lighter in weight & smaller in diameter. While the sectional density and muzzle velocities of the bullets may be comparable to larger calibers, their lower weights limit the amount of energy and momentum available upon impact. This lessens the bullets capability to produce a high degree of “ bone-shattering†results. There are only two circumstances that will cause the death of any mammal, destruction of the central nervous system & oxygen depletion of the brain. The classic heart/lung shot is a prime example, a bullet that enters behind the on-side shoulder, properly expands, cuts through the arteries and upper portions of the heart and tears openings in the lungs is a lethal shot no matter what bullet is used. What determines the amount of time for death to occur is decided by when the animal’s brain is deprived of oxygen enriched blood. Nuero- muscular reactions from the wound inflicted shock can cause muscles to tighten and restrict blood flow away from the brain, thus trapping a small store of oxygen, this is what sometimes enables a deer to run for several hundred yards after having its heart & lungs virtually destroyed. Larger caliber cartridges deliver more impact energy and momentum that cause more nuero-shock trauma and have a better opportunity to inflict damage over a greater area. While the .243 may provide a sufficient, but comparatively small wound and milder nuero-shock, the larger more powerful cartridges inflict more immediate damage. If a large bone mass is hit, this is further amplified by the collateral damage from the bone fragments. In brief it is just a matter of playing the mathematical odds with the larger, more powerful cartridges having a wider opportunity to inflict more severe damage & trauma. In other words a 250-grain bullet from a .338 magnum, that breaks both shoulders, destroys the heart & lungs, plus damages the central nervous system is much more likely to result in a spectacular, drop-dead kill than a .243 round through the heart/lungs. Anything less than near perfect shot placement, only widens the margin.

Good hunting,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Argali:
Jimmy,

Your question deserves an honest answer, --- Anything less than near perfect shot placement, only widens the margin.Good hunting,
Dave

And I think you answered it quite well indeed. roger

Good comment Argali.

Bullet placement is more important than the caliber the animal is hit with.

The brain, spinal column, heart, and lungs are "Immediate For Life Organs". The "Secondary Organs" are the liver and kidney.

Larger calibers reduce the margin of error.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
...... I think his claim is risky business, I want two holes to be sure, is this right or wrong?

Jimmy,

I too think you should pick a bullet for deer that will make two holes.

Now, that said, My experience hunting southern whitetails is that its not very hard to make two holes in them. All mine and my son's shots have produced two holes! Between us, my 270 with either 150 SGKs or 140 Hornady SP ILs, my 7.5x55 with 165 SGKs, my 7.7x58 with 174 Hornady RN ILs, his 308 with 165 SGKs and of course my 8x57 with 200 Speer HCs all do this. Several shots also broke a bone or one or the other shoulders while still leaving two holes. Still most of the deer we have killed were "bang flops". However, I was glad for the two holes on the ones we did have to trail.

I have givin this lots of thought. I tend to agree that whatever energy a bullet has left when it exits the target is wasted.
But I will submit that it is a fine line to walk to try and get a bullet that will penitrate to the vitals but not exit.
I think in a .243 I would not go below about 90 grains.
...tj3006

IMHO, it all depends on shot placement…..

Nosler BTs and other “blow-up†bullets are devastating when place in the heart/lung area, but aren’t so great on shoulder and other bone-breaking shots. Depending on caliber, they may break one shoulder and leave you a lot of bloodshot meat, but they are not reliable stoppers in this application.

Barnes bullets on the other hand shatter weight bearing bones and also stop animals in their tracks yet don’t have the lightning strike effect when placed in the softer vitals.

I’ve used a lot of different cartridges and bullet types on white tails here in WV. A few years ago I killed a few deer with the 308 Winchester. I was using 150 grain Nos BTs @ around 2800 fps. I shot three deer (all through the heart) at ranges from 100 to 150 yards. Two dropped like I hit the off switch one ran about twenty yards. I was pretty impressed.

This year I switched to the 6.5x55 Swedish and 140 grain XLCs @ around 2800 fps. I shot two deer at similar ranges than before. Both were taken high in the shoulder and dropped just as fast and were just as dead as the BT deer were. I was pretty impressed with the performance of the XLC. On each deer both shoulder blades were shattered and a nice quarter size exit wound showed in the hide on the opposite side.

All in all, I’d rather have more penetration than not. I want to be able to take what ever shot is presented at whatever angle, sometimes they just don’t want to oblige and pose for us perfectly broadside.

Two busted shoulders are just as good as one busted lung……..

Matt V.

The bullet needs to penetrate enough to cause damage, that's what you want the energy to be used for, lots of penetration.

Think about it: When you fire a cartridge, your shoulder absorbs all of the energy of the bullet. When a bullet proof vest is hit, the wearer recieves all of the bullet energy.

Without penetration, you need a LOT of energy to kill.

here is some interesting "stuff"

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

That kind of puts the light calibers in perspective, doesn't it?

Its all according to whats hit going thru the animal how soon it will expire. A bullet staying inside the animal can do just as much damage if it stops inside a vital organ. Thats the way I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
I have an ertswhile "know it all" acquaintance that I have hunted with on occasion in the past who claims he has used a .243 on many WT deer. (Now he hunts with a 30-06) His claim is that you want a .243 bullet that does not penetrate through the animal as it dumps it energy inside and results in a quicker kill. Another mutual acquaintance who hunts with him killed two last year with a Savage 99 in .243 with 80 grain Remington soft point bullets, one a nice 8 point. I think his claim is risky business, I want two holes to be sure, is this right or wrong?

I am familiar with instances in which a bullet remained inside a game animal, thus "dumping" all its energy inside, and also instances in which the bullet went all the way through and "wasted" alot of its energy on the far side of the canyon.

The only real difference I could see was that the bullets which went all the way through leaving an exit hole let out more blood for tracking the animal, if that was necessary. Often the bullets that stayed inside gave little or no blood trail at all. I saw no difference in how quickly the game hit the ground, or how far it went after being shot, that could have been attributed to whether the bullet stayed inside of not. In other words, "energy dumping" makes no observable difference in how the game reacts to being shot, in my experience. Others may have observed the opposite!

In the case of little bullets like the .243, they don't leave much of a blood trail either way, but I'd want as much blood let out as possible!

quote:

Something that I would like to add, is that my son is currently going thru Hunter Ed here in Oregon.. at the class last night, the instructor, told the kids, which is in the Education Guide, that when they shoot a deer or Elk, they recommend that the kids stay put where they are at for 30 minutes before approaching the game...

the reason they said, was that if hit and animal will lay down, and won't be inclined to run, like it would if it was approached after being wounded...

I've heard this in reference to h=using a bow, but not a rifle! However, I once had a Canadian friend who in his younger days kept hos family supplied with meat by shooting a bull moose or two every fall. He used an old .30 Remington pi=ump-action rifle, and he told me that he'd shoot a moose right behind the shoulder, then sit down on a log, light his pipe, and then go after the moose after about 45 minutes. He said he always found the moose dead withing 100 yards of the spot where it had been when he'd shot it. Now I can believe that about a moose, but NOT an elk!

i havnt had to follow a blood trail. our ability to follow blood trails arent really that good. thats why you need a deer dog to find it for you. i think they would be the best for finding wounded game, not that you should ever wound one anyway. and it would make finding them in the bush when they are dead a fair bit faster!

I think it's not that he wants it not to shoot through.

The 243 just CAN'T shoot through......

My son shot a deer at 40 yards braodside with a 243 (his grand dads Mod 100) and no exit wound- on a litle piss-ant 115lb buck.

I'll be happier when he can take the recoil of a 270 win instead of using that pea-shooter!

my first centerfire was a montgomery ward (mossberg 742) .243 winchester..with a cheapie 2-7 scope.... i started handloading for it at age 15....rcbs junior....with 100 gr sierra sp's i killed 2-3 deer a year....i was taught neck and chest cavity shots, never had anything run off...1 or 2 might have moved 10-20 yds, but none were lost....most were 1-shot kills....last whitetail i killed was a 30-06... deer was facing me at a 45 degreee angle, 1 shot in the neck, straight to the heart and lungs, no exit.... deer ran at me for about 30 yds, then collapsed.... bullet placement is just as important as bullet selection....