Great forum!

I've just recently become interested in shooting/hunting and am mulling over my options for a bolt caliber.

I'm looking for a caliber that will fill three demands, 1) reasonably light recoil, 2) enough punch to kill an Elk from not so close distances, and 3)for fun, the ability to reach long distances for target shooting out to 1000 yards(nothing competitive).

After doing a LOT of reading it seems to me that the 6.5X55 Swede fits the bill pretty well, but I don't know. Locally, here in the SF Bay Area, my friends who hunt and people at gun stores just shake their heads and hand me .30-06s, 300 Win Mags, etc. and tell me the 6.5 is too small for med to larger game, etc. etc.

Any suggestions, advice, ideas will be appreciated.

Thanks

Native,

Welcome to AR!

I started with an '06, being as this is the 100th anniversary year, perhaps you should consider it. Second rifle was a 6.5X55.

Then a 6.5-'06 and a .280 Rem.

All of this in the Old California.

There are a lot of cartridges that can do what you want. I suggest looking at the rifles first, and choosing the cartridge second.

jim

quote:

Originally posted by sad_cal_native:
Great forum!

I've just recently become interested in shooting/hunting and am mulling over my options for a bolt caliber.

I'm looking for a caliber that will fill three demands, 1) reasonably light recoil, 2) enough punch to kill an Elk from not so close distances, and 3)for fun, the ability to reach long distances for target shooting out to 1000 yards(nothing competitive).

After doing a LOT of reading it seems to me that the 6.5X55 Swede fits the bill pretty well, but I don't know. Locally, here in the SF Bay Area, my friends who hunt and people at gun stores just shake their heads and hand me .30-06s, 300 Win Mags, etc. and tell me the 6.5 is too small for med to larger game, etc. etc.

Any suggestions, advice, ideas will be appreciated.

Thanks

Welcome Native,
People in the Skandinavian Countries have been killing game up to and including Moose for over 100 years with the 6.5x55, because it works!
Don't fall into the bigger is better trap. The main thing is to learn to shoot whatever you end up with. Bullet placement and bullet performance is what counts.

Stepchild

Ignore the bigger is better guys unless you want to just pound yourself for no reason except to inflate your ego. I would not book a grizzly hunt with my 7mm08 although it would kill one but anything else in North America will die quickly from a 7mm08 or your 6.5x55 or the 260. Once you step up you start increasing the recoil and you said you prefer a light recoil.
Good shooting and good hunting.

Forget the 7-08 or the .260. Go with the 6.5x55 or the 7x57 Mauser. Both have the adequate neck length and throat to handle the longer, heavier higher BC bullets you will need at a reasonable velocity and energy level. I kid you not. roger

I'd pick either the .280 Remington or the ancient .30-06

Hey guys, thanks for the input.

I'm sitting here enjoying my dessert, a glass of Maker's Mark and Club and having a good ol' time reading.

Being single has its advantages when it comes to being able to park my ass in front of the computer for an entire Sunday afternoon and get edumacated.

As I said(wrote) earlier, I am a complete novice to bolt guns and hunting. So any opinion I'm forming isn't coming from practical experience, but what others have written. Having said that, here's what's impressing me about the 6.5X55 sw. I keep reading references to Sectional Density and Ballistic Coefficient. If my information is right the higher SD, the more penetrating power the bullet has, and the higher the BC, the less drag and therefore the less wind and other forces of flight will effect the bullet during its short(in time) flight.

So I poured the whiskey and did a google search for bullet ballistic tables. I found the Sierra bullet website and they have the ballistic info for all their bullets. It's very interesting to me that the .264 142 gr HPBT Match King has a SD of.291 and a BC of .595 above 2850 fps, while the .308 190 gr HPBT MatchKing has a SD of .286 and a BC of .533 above 2100 fps. It looks to me like the 6.5 has the advantage in both areas. Why would I want to shoot a bigger caliber with the associated higher recoil for a bullet with about equal penetration and worse flight characteristics? Or am I missing something? Is the delivered energy so much bigger with the .30 cal as opposed to the 6.5 as to make it a big favorite?

I'm not trying to start crap, but these seem to me to be reasonable questions unless I'm missing something that my learning hasn't brought me to yet.

Thanks to all for putting up with rookie questions that you've probably answered hundreds of times. I appreciate it.

welcome aboard sir!!! you'll find a lot of good info and suggestions from a lot of these guys here. no question is a dumb one. btw... drink one for me!

I would suggest the 280 Remington, although I don't think that there is anything wrong with the 6.5X55. The 7mm caliber may have more options available as far as bullets are concerned.

The .280 would be a good choice. Ain't no flys on the 7-08 however. All the bs about the 7x57 being superior is just that, bs. I own both and any difference in performance IN THE REAL WORLD is trivial.

Greetings from another Bay Area member and welcome to AR! You've set some interesting parameters. While the 6.5 Swede will do what you are asking, there's the question of the kind of rifle (and its weight) you intend to launch it with and also the kind of scope you'll need for the roles you envision.

Allow me to propose a somewhat contrarian perspective and suggest a Remington 700 LTR in .308 with 165 or 168-grain bullets. The LTR usually very accurate out of the box, and with its 20" barrel and under-8-pound weight unscoped and unloaded is a reasonable weight for toting in the field. A premium bullet in the 168-grain class will certainly suffice for elk at longish distances, and should closely duplicate the Federal Gold Medal Match 168-grain BTHP round's ballistics, which is the standard by which match rounds are measured. With a variable scope in the 3.5-10 or 4-12X range, you should be well set up for the activities you mentioned.

Just a thought.

Sad-Cal,
Let me open up by saying that I'm not familiar with the 6.5's and can make no reference good or bad. They may fill your bill perfectly, I don't know, but here's my take for what it's worth.

You have made a request that in reality is pretty hard to fill. Parts 1 and 2 could be any number of calibers. countless historical factory cartridges will do it cheaply. And parts 2 and 3 would be an easy niche to fill. Once again with many old faithful cartridges that you'll find on the Walmart shelf.

But trying to get all three kinda makes it hard. It's been my experience that to consistantly make 1000 yard shots, you're gonna have to deal with some recoil. You gotta have a gun that will send a heavy bullet down range, damn fast just to overcome a breeze. Now again, I did say consistantly.

I think I'd be wanting to start at 7mm Rem. Mag with some sort of compensator on it. And even that's not gonna kick the wind but so much.
Military snipers have long been using the 7.62 Nato(308) with great success at 1000yds. Their M40A1, (basically a souped up Remington 700) has been in service for many years. Also their M24, (basically a 700 that could be converted from 308 to 300 Win Mag if needed) has proved a very, very effective 1000 yd. rifle. Depending on what you mean by "elk at not so close distances", one could go the 308 way. But if we're talking over 300 yards on elk, the 300 Win Mag would be the route. But again, we're talking about a rifle that kicks both ways. But it's a round that is very availiabe at most any sporting good store.

Once again let me state that this is just my opinion, and nothing else. Not trying to stir up the wildcat natives.

Everthing is great about the Matchkings until you hit an elk in the SHOULDER. (I didn't say the chest) The bullet will open to quickly and you won't get enough penetration. I don't know I would use the 6.5x55 to shoot long distances at elk. From my experience they are sometimes hard to bring down. It would be a good round for out to 250-300 on elk as long as you used a sturdy bullet such as a Barnes X, Nosler Partition or something in that nature.

Jason has a good idea. Buy a .30 cal of some kind and put a muzzle break on them. It won't kick plus it has a lot more bullet selection plus a wider range of bullet weights. It will be louder, but I put in ear plugs most of the time before I shoot.

Good luck if you go.

Welcome to AR! I'm in Kalifornia too but in a way more conservative area!

You may have just swatted the hornets nest with you comments. Not that you opinion is wrong but, there are lots of opinions!
I tend to lean toward the smaller rifle cartridges for most hunting but for Elk I like bigger. My favorite is the .338 WM, but I've put the sneek on Elk while deer hunting with my .25-06.( legally, had both tags)

With any choice you need to consider what you'll do most with that rifle. I would think for where your at the 6.5x55 would be a good choice. But a single guy with such good taste,(proven by choice of MM) will probably not want to limit himself to one rifle.

If low recoil has to be combined with a long distance Elk rifle, and 1000 yard target rifle, I'd be looking to heavier rifles, probably would say a .264 WM would be the best compromise. If you don't load your own you will probably want to start though. If your just getting started in rifles you may want to consider a smallbore like a .223. Ammo is way cheaper and learning to shoot a rifle that doesn't recoil will teach good habits. When you've developed some mad skills with the smallbore, step up to a larger caliber.

I love shooting and practice with nearly everything in my safe. I've been really happy with my 7mm RM for open country hunting of deer and elk. In areas where the shots at an elk are generally going to be 200 yards or less, I'd take my .338 WM every time!

I personally am unimpressed with the .270W on elk and the Swede is smaller. That would make it necassary to place your shots perfectly and use very good performing bullets. Not always will it be the one with the highest BC, but high SD is quite important for optimizing on penetration.

Again, Welcome to the madness! Nate

I have it right here! 264 win mag FN action timney trigger 26" bbl about a 7 contour. weighs about 10 lbs.....i'm guessing Scope is bushnell elite 4-16x50. Action is bedded and barrel is floated. enough guts to take an elk. or bench rest with the full beaver tail forarm.

here's a second pic that's sized down.

Lofter, Thats what I'm talkin' 'bout! Exactly!

So tell me how is it working out? How does it act? Nate

Native,

Don't fall in love with the numbers in tables too quickly! If you are going to poke holes in targets, then BC and SD are good parameters to study.

If you are going to poke holes in critters, then you might need a larger caliber than the 6.5. For example the .300 bore size is a documented better killer of animals in the field than the smaller diameter cartridges.

I will agree with Eric that the .308 Win is a great target and hunting cartridge, I have shot it for years in matches, and for the last 7 years I have used it on animals. Different bullets of course.

If you are going to hunt with the .300s, check the 165 gr bullets. If 6.5/.264 look at the 140 gr.

jim

BigNate.......I have not fired this rifle as yet. But just posted it cause it fit your parameters. If you don't reload and want a similar gun off the shelf. Go to a full line Browning dealer and look at their heavy barrel thumbhole stock model in 7 WSM. That caliber is doing well for the benchresters and you can shoot factory 160's that should perform well on elk. Or you can go to a smith and have one built for more than double the money. Go to the Browning site first and take a look. Or...if you wanna spend less look at the winchester coyote.

Native -
Like everything in life there are trade offs with rifles. Unless you can reload and depending on your defintion of light recoil your going to have a hard time meeting all three of your requirements.

6.5X55 is a great round, I really want to get one my self, and would make a great first rifle. It can be, and is, used to take large game like moose, so elk shouldn't be too much a problem. If you have good shot placement, and you know the range limit of the rifle. It doesnt have the "power" to cover for your mistakes.

The reason people like the larger calibers like the .30-06 and the 300 win mag, beside magnumitis, is that they have more power down range. But that power usally comes with more recoil. These rifles are usally better 1000 yard guns too. As good as the 6.5x55 is I dont think it is a 1000 yard round.

So to sum it up. If you want the swede get it. Its a great round. Practice with it get good and it wont let you down, if you know the limits. You might want to look at get a .308 if you are more interested in 1000 yard shooting.

I might suggest get the swede now practice lots, then when your good with this and want something new then look in to something bigger, some long range gun and then look at the 300 win mag or larger.

one other thing to rember about hunting rounds. Smaller bullets (.308 and smaller) make big holes or deep holes if you want both you need a bigger round (.338+)

hope that helps, hope thats not too much to read. and now to hear from people who think im completely wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Slingster:
While the 6.5 Swede will do what you are asking, there's the question of the kind of rifle (and its weight) you intend to launch it with and also the kind of scope you'll need for the roles you envision.

This is very important.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Forget the 7-08 or the .260. Go with the 6.5x55 or the 7x57 Mauser. Both have the adequate neck length and throat to handle the longer, heavier higher BC bullets you will need at a reasonable velocity and energy level. I kid you not. roger

Funny that, my 260 Rem doesn't seem to have a problem with Lapua 139s, one of the longest 6.5 mm bullets around.

Lofter, When I said Exactly I meant it! That is what I had in mind. I do reload so thats not an issue, I have a 7mm RM so don't really need it, but that doesn't keep me from wanting one!
I'd build mine a bit lighter and mount a smaller lighter scope as more of a hunting rifle, but this is as close to fitting NATIVE's wish list as I could think of! Beautiful. Nate

Gentlemen,

Continued thanks for the willing advice.

A couple of guys have asked me about the kind of rifle I'm thinking of. All the reading I've done (here I go reading again) has me leaning towards a Tikka. I've looked at a couple at a local gun store and they are beautiful, and the bolt feels like it fits better than a lot of other rifles I've looked at. I'm sure I'm not using the right verbage there with the bolt fit, but I mean it feels like it's machined to tighter tolerances.


Looking at ammo, if I decide on the 6.5 Swede it seems that reloading will be a necessity if I don't want to spend a fortune, but that's ok, a new fun hobby would be ok with me.

It appears that there are trade-offs here, as with everything in life, so if I had to choose I'd take lower recoil and give up longer range performance on paper and food.

As a new shooter I really don't want to beat the hell out of my shoulder, and as I have a lot of non-shooting friends who I'd like to take to the range, a more shooter-friendly round, at least for my first rifle seems to me to be the way to go.

Besides, I paced off a thousand yards down the road last night. HOLY CRAP that's a long way to shoot a small group! I don't know what I was thinking, but in my mind 1k yards wasn't that far. Maybe I ought to see if I can hit anything at 100 first.

Ok, I'm starting to babble aimlessly, thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by sad_cal_native:
... All the reading I've done (here I go reading again) has me leaning towards a Tikka. ... I paced off a thousand yards down the road last night. HOLY CRAP that's a long way to shoot a small group! I don't know what I was thinking, but in my mind 1k yards wasn't that far. Maybe I ought to see if I can hit anything at 100 first.

Hey Native, If you have not read about the Sakos/Tikas Exploding with factory ammo, I'd encourage you to keep reading. Good bit of information about it on the Gun Smith Board if you just "Search Back" aways.

And yes, starting at 100yds is really a fine idea.

quote:

I'm sitting here enjoying my dessert, a glass of Maker's Mark and Club and having a good ol' time reading. ...

Bill Samuels Jr., lives about 20miles Northeast of where I'm sitting at this moment. I can tell you that he most certainly appreciates your business, but would recommend you should use the Club Soda for cleaning Wine stains out of the carpet.

Try a short Highball glass with two fingers of room temperature Maker's. But, do it when you have not already started. Just think of all the money you can save on not having to buy Club Soda that you can put into Reloading.

Hot Core,

Thanks for the advice about the Club Soda. It's dangerous stuff anyway. I spilled some the other night and had to pour red wine on the carpet to get the Club stain out.

I've never read about a Tikka exploding. Sounds like not much fun.

I love Maker's and your point about expense reallocation is taken. I like the way you think.

Best Regards,

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Forget the 7-08 or the .260. Go with the 6.5x55 or the 7x57 Mauser. Both have the adequate neck length and throat to handle the longer, heavier higher BC bullets you will need at a reasonable velocity and energy level. I kid you not. roger

Funny that, my 260 Rem doesn't seem to have a problem with Lapua 139s, one of the longest 6.5 mm bullets around.

That's nice. I wish I could afford LaPua.roger

Native: you showed a preference right off the bat for a 6.5x55mm. It is an excellent caliber, one well documented as a cartridge capable of taking most game a person would care to hunt in a lifetime. I think you are beginning to see what 1,000-yard shooting would entail. Once you get the rifle you want in the caliber you want, and top it with as good a chunk of glass as you can afford, try shooting targets at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards. Even at 400 yards, that is way, way out there. My personal preference is the 7x57mm Mauser. I have used this caliber for huning: whitetail deer, muledeer, elk, antelope, coyote, wild pigs, javelina and a wild turkey in Texas. My rifle is a CZ 550 American, and that is why I am responding to your post. See if your local gunshop has any CZ 550s in stock and just try throwing it to your shoulder to check out the fit. You might also look at the CZ 550 Full Stock, a neat little rifle that also comes in 6.5x55mm. If you cannot find one locally, go to http://www.cz-usa.com and check out the rifles on the internet at the CZ web site. I highly recommend the CZ long rifles from personal experience, limited, but very good and very positive. Regardless, welcome to the forum and good luck. I really like your idea of selecting a caliber that will not scare off your friends. Tom Purdom

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Forget the 7-08 or the .260. Go with the 6.5x55 or the 7x57 Mauser. Both have the adequate neck length and throat to handle the longer, heavier higher BC bullets you will need at a reasonable velocity and energy level. I kid you not. roger

Funny that, my 260 Rem doesn't seem to have a problem with Lapua 139s, one of the longest 6.5 mm bullets around.

That's nice. I wish I could afford LaPua.roger

They cost the same as any other 6.5 mm match bullet.

And I guess that means that you haven't tried the longest bullets available in 260, right?

quote:

Originally posted by sad_cal_native:
I paced off a thousand yards down the road last night. HOLY CRAP that's a long way to shoot a small group!

200 yards:



300 yards:


600 yards:

Trying to buy a hunting rifle for longe range shooting also is like trying to by a Dodge Pickup to run 10 second 1/4 miles at the track.

Yes, you can make it work, but it takes a lot of work to the gun but also to the shooter.

Mathematically and just playing with numbers, say the best group your rifle shoot at 100 yards is one inch three shot group. If everything was perfect, your rifle would then shoot 2 inches at 200 yards 3 inches at 300 yards and so on.

Life is not perfect though. The best 10 shot groups I have shot at 1000 yards are 10 inches. This is with a custom barrel, action, trigger, recoil lug and so forth. With lots of trigger time in plus learning how to read the wind.

A hunting rifle normally has what called a "sporter" contour of the barrel. A sporter barrel heats up quickly and you will get 3 to 4 shots before you will have to let it cool.

Another problem with sporter barrels is that movement is huge with a light rifle even off say a bipod, or even sometimes a benchrest. These barrels and rifles are great for hunting since they are light and handy but do not suit well for shooting small groups.

If you wanted to buy one gun that would do both,
you might also want to look into something such as a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic or a Remington 700 VSSF chambered in .308. It doesn't kick (that much) and would be great for elk and deer at ranges out to 450 yards or farther on smaller animals. Before you even think about shooting an animal that far, make sure you buy about 500-1000 rounds of .308 and put in the trigger time. Bullets shift with the wind screws you up, then you have to learn drop at those distances. Many shooters on this forum could help you with that stuff, but you have to put in the trigger time.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Before you even think about shooting an animal that far, make sure you buy about 500-1000 rounds of .308 and put in the trigger time.

I think you need to triple that amount. And that's shooting with the help of a serious competitive shooter who knows how to read wind (highpower, benchrest, tactical comps.).

I've burned nearly 4500 rounds of 223 in highpower competition in the last three years alone, and I still have a lot to learn about dealing with the wind.

Sad-Cal,
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't get into reloading, but you said you were a new shooter. This is my best advice to you on the subject- Get a rifle that you can afford to shoot factory rounds through to begin with. I feel that anyone who reloads should have a working knowledge of how shooting works. This will give you some idea of what you want to produce, and the dangers involved in the little bombs you will be creating. Then go out and buy the reloading equipment. And besides, if you like shooting enough to get into reloading, there will for sure be a second rifle in your future. And a third, and a fourth,,,,

quote:

Originally posted by sad_cal_native:
...Thanks for the advice about the Club Soda. It's dangerous stuff anyway. I spilled some the other night and had to pour red wine on the carpet to get the Club stain out.

Hey Brian, I sure hope you don't mind if I "quote" you on that. I know some folks who will get some BIG Grins about that concept.

quote:

I've never read about a Tikka exploding. Sounds like not much fun...

Yes, there has been at least two extensive threads on it. Apparently the Sako/Tika Management decided it was in their best interest to keep as quiet about it as possible.

That attitude toward the end user doesn't set well with me, nor a lot of folks who posted on those threads.
---

By the way, if you look at the Maker's Label, you will notice it says "Whisky" not "Whiskey" which seems to be an irritant to some folks. Both are considered "correct", but in Bill's part of KY, Whisky is proper.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Before you even think about shooting an animal that far, make sure you buy about 500-1000 rounds of .308 and put in the trigger time.

I think you need to triple that amount. And that's shooting with the help of a serious competitive shooter who knows how to read wind (highpower, benchrest, tactical comps.).

I've burned nearly 4500 rounds of 223 in highpower competition in the last three years alone, and I still have a lot to learn about dealing with the wind.

I didn't write it but I was thinking that would be the starting point. You sometimes write what you think or think but not write


What kind of presses do you use HP. I have a pair of Dillon 550's. I got tired of switching from large to small primers and found it easier just to buy another one.

sb45, you probably will find this hard to believe, but I reload everything on a Rockchucker.

Before I reloaded, I used to buy Hornady and Black Hills reman match ammo by the 1K round case.

Right now I keep 440 rounds of short line and 220 round of 600 yd ammo ready at all times. The moment a box of 110 rounds is spent, the brass gets processed and reloaded that same week.

I save time by using RCBS X dies, which allow me to forget about trimming, chamfering, and deburring.

SadCalNat,
Welcome. I've been reading this discussion with interest for a couple of days and watching as you ease into reality on the range thing. Very few hunters kill anything beyond 300 yrd.s. Many of those who do are are on the AR forums and I'm sure you'll lear a lot from them as I have, but if you hunt you'll probably learn that you'll kill most game inside 250 yrd.s - even out west. Your 6.5x55 choice seems a good one for anything under 300 yrd.s, but you'll learn you can't do everything with one gun. I'd advise a starter to own at least two rifles. A good .22 for lots of cheap shooting, and something like a 6.5x55, 7mm08 or .270. After you've shot a while, you may want to go out beyond 300 yrd.s and then you'll want to add a gun in something much flatter shooting than a 6.5x55. There are lots of options depending on what (prairie dogs, coyotes, deer, elk, paper) you have time and place to shoot. I wouldn't recommend jumping into reloading. Spend the time and money on shooting and hunting for a year or two and then make the decision. There are advantages to reloading but so far (the last 50 years) I've preferred to spend my hobby time at the range or in the field than at a reloading bench. I shoot a lot at the rifle range but shooting for me is a means to and end. Maybe when I retire...? Naaa. I'll just shoot and hunt more! You're a reader so you might want to try a issue of Varmint Shooter. Varmint shooting would allow you to indulge your interest in long range shooting all year while learning to hunt. Anyway, you've chosen a wonderful hobby and you've come a good place to learn about it.

welcome to this forum !!!!! sems to me your leaning towards the 6.5''s reserch the 6.5/284 and the 6.5/06 both will do you proud, Great advice as usual you can count on that in this FORUM. short actions calibers are very accurate as are long and magnum actions,but the choice is yours ,best of luck an keep us posted jjmp

There has been some questionable advise. 6.5-06 and 6.5*284 are wildcats, not available in any gunstore, only shootable by somewhat advanced reloaders, and a pain. Stick to something with ammo in your local shop. That will be 270, 308, 243, 30-06, 300 mag, 7-08......

6.5*55 will be effective v. elk, Just not as available, especially in heavy bullet weights. I have not shot one, but I imagine factory ammo is weak, because of the 100 year old Swedes out there.(?)

Tikkas are fine, bad barrel steel tikkas are off the market now. Action is super smooth, accuracy is better than most. Manufactured in Finland, imported by a company with a bad customer service record.

300 mag and 30-06 are fine Elk rounds, but awful for a new shooter. Get a 22. A fairly accurate, bolt action 22 with a scope can be had for $200. Shoot a bunch for cheap. Shoot your friend's big game rifles, see what you like. 300 mag recoil may not bother you, it sure bothers me. Look at price and selection of factory ammo localy.

I think a 308 win made by an American company would be best. Lower recoil, but not a pansy. Huge variety of ammo, from cheap surplus to premium bullets to match. Bullets heavy enough for elk. Capable of long shots (forget 1000 yards for now.)