It -10 outside right now and I am stuck in the house with nothing better to do then to dream up my next gun project. With boredom setting in, I though about building a rifle for my middle daughter. With the recent changes to Wisconsin hunting laws, my 8 yr old is now eligible for the mentored hunt. My issue has been fitting her for a gun, factory options are too big for her. I though of making her a 'tiny' rifle to fit her 'tiny' frame. Here is what I was thinking:
Howa 1500 short action
17" barrel chambered in 6BRX or 6x45 with a 1 in 8.4 twist?
richards microfit stock chopped down to a 10" LOP
Top it with a vortex strikefire II Red dot

only thing i'd change is the richards stock-not very good quality- geta nice blank and have paul run a duplicate for you (ramrod340)- you'll be happy you did

I ordered a richards last year for my savage 340. I am fully aware that they are not 'drop in'. Mine took a little polishing but it turned out great.

The 6x45 is a good idea.
This fall I shot 3 whitetails with 3 one shot kills, 85 Sierra HPBT going 2840 fps (CFE223 seems to be THE powder for this little gem).
2 fell to the shot and one made it 25 feet maybe. Ranges were 125, 150 and 315 yards.
Mine was a AR15 with a 20" barrel in a 9 twist.
The cheap stock is a good idea while she is growing, you can cut it down to fit her now and save the cut off, glue it on in stages as she grows then when she is at her full grown size stock it in something nice.
My next 6x45 will probably be built on a Mini Mauser (Charles Daly, Remington, Zastava)this action would be a great platform for a kids rifle.
I love planning new rifle projects!

For a gun that is going to be out-grown fairly quickly, the cheap stock is a good idea. Since it may be re-stocked down the road, I would recommend a chambering the kid can buy bullets for. .243 Winchester can be loaded to no recoil, is very accurate, kills deer and antelope, and whistle pigs, and gophers, and fox, and other stuff. Just a thought from a da with a college age daughter that shoots at her college town gun range.

The Canadian--Making a youngster a rifle that fits and the recoil can be handled is not a crazy idea. Not doing that would be the crazy idea. Just because you can handle a 16lb bowling ball doesn't mean a youngster can, What if you had to use a 20 pound bowling ball? Be same comparison. I like to get a second stock that can be cut to size and keep the original for later.

Agree with Quintus: a downloaded .243 is a great place to start someone.

Keep in mind if you use H-4895, you can safely reduce your load to 60% of maximum.

The little Browning x-bolt is available in .243 and has a 12" LOP and 20" barrel... just whack the stock a little and it will be less than 6 lbs and have a nice looking stock to boot... (and "gold" trigger... what female doesn't like gold?)... use the extra time to trim your toenails...

You might do well to consider the 6mm creedmoor over the 6mm brx.

If you cut down your stock, first drill two holes for some round stock to line the pieces up when you put it back longer. Did this for my son and it worked very well.

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
Agree with Quintus: a downloaded .243 is a great place to start someone.

Keep in mind if you use H-4895, you can safely reduce your load to 60% of maximum.

My only issue with the .243 or creedmore is that both have greater then 50gr of case capacity. I really dont want to be tied to a single powder that never seems to be in stock in any of the stores around me. I was really leaning toward the 6x45 when I though of this project. However, the appeal of the BRX is the initial case prep and fire forming. It may come as a surprise, but I REAllY like my alone time at the reloading bench. Having to deal with five girls all the time, it keeps me grounded.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
The 6x45 is a good idea.
This fall I shot 3 whitetails with 3 one shot kills, 85 Sierra HPBT going 2840 fps (CFE223 seems to be THE powder for this little gem).
2 fell to the shot and one made it 25 feet maybe. Ranges were 125, 150 and 315 yards.
Mine was a AR15 with a 20" barrel in a 9 twist.
The cheap stock is a good idea while she is growing, you can cut it down to fit her now and save the cut off, glue it on in stages as she grows then when she is at her full grown size stock it in something nice.
My next 6x45 will probably be built on a Mini Mauser (Charles Daly, Remington, Zastava)this action would be a great platform for a kids rifle.
I love planning new rifle projects!

Howa makes their very small action in 6.5 Grendel. I'd get one of those with a wood stock, cut it as necessary, saving the cut-off to add back as she grows, and wait until she grows up to have a quality custom stock made.

Clarence

Starting a child with an appropriate sized and caliber firearm is a great idea.

I was started out with a full military 03-A3 at 12yoa and very skinny. I told myself no way was any child I started hunting was going to use some thing that inappropriate as far as size/weight and caliber for their height and weight.

I used a TC 16 inch carbine for younger shooters. In in 357 max.

Lite weight under 5 pounds scoped plenty powerful.

The family has killed a couple dozen of deer with it.

A bolt gun is a good idea also but making a smaller liter weight single shot might be easier.

Good luck with your project.

quote:

I REAllY like my alone time at the reloading bench.

I hope that you have plans to get the girls starting helping you reload.

It is a joy to see them come along and it teaches them a lot of skills math ect.

The only crazy part is living where it is 10 degrees.
Your daughter is a very lucky little girl. Sounds like a fun project. Unless it is going to be a surprise, try to get her involved in the build.

6x45
Go 20"-21" on the barrel, more for noise mitigation and balance then ballistics.

I built one for my youngest son on a Sako L461 action with a Broughton 5C 10 twist barrel turned down to featherweight contour at 20" and a McMillan hunter stock.

If I had it to do over, I would use a MPI microlite stock and go to a 8 or 8.5 twist barrel.

I agree with tree em, get the barrel 20” at least.

I've got a 7mmbr and a 6.5 gredel on zastava mini mausers. Thwy are laserbeam.

I'd do a grendel on a cz mini

I'm having difficulty deciding which would be better for deer class game: the mentioned 6x45 or the slightly larger 25/45 Sharps.

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
With the recent changes to Wisconsin hunting laws, my 8 yr old is now eligible for the mentored hunt.

Interested to know what is mean't by a "mentored hunt"? Is this a special hunt or season for youngsters?

Are you allowed or would you consider fitting a suppressor? This is definitely the way I would go for any youngster starting out and in fact here in NZ the suppressor is almost obligatory on hunting rifles (not part of any law but most hunters now use them because of the benefits they provide).

My older son has bought a Ruger 223 with suppressor (barrel shortened to 16" with over-barrel suppressor) to start his 6 year old boy and 4 year old girl off with shooting game. They already use a 22RF now.
We are fortunate here in New Zealand where anyone of any age can use a hunting firearm provided if under the age of 16 years, they are supervised by a firearms licence holder. Because we have no season or licence required for game shooting, except for gamebird, kids of any age if they are capable of sighting and pulling the trigger can hunt and shoot game from rabbit to tahr and everything in between.
Here A 2 year old still in nappies (diapers) can legally shoot game if he or she is physically capable of doing so

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
With the recent changes to Wisconsin hunting laws, my 8 yr old is now eligible for the mentored hunt.

Interested to know what is mean't by a "mentored hunt"? Is this a special hunt or season for youngsters?

Are you allowed or would you consider fitting a suppressor? This is definitely the way I would go for any youngster starting out and in fact here in NZ the suppressor is almost obligatory on hunting rifles (not part of any law but most hunters now use them because of the benefits they provide).

My older son has bought a Ruger 223 with suppressor (barrel shortened to 16" with over-barrel suppressor) to start his 6 year old boy and 4 year old girl off with shooting game. They already use a 22RF now.
We are fortunate here in New Zealand where anyone of any age can use a hunting firearm provided if under the age of 16 years, they are supervised by a firearms licence holder. Because we have no season or licence required for game shooting, except for gamebird, kids of any age if they are capable of sighting and pulling the trigger can hunt and shoot game from rabbit to tahr and everything in between.
Here A 2 year old still in nappies (diapers) can legally shoot game if he or she is physically capable of doing so

Aint life grand

quote:

posted by eagle27:

Interested to know what is mean't by a "mentored hunt"?

I'm not sure what is involved with Mentored hunts in Wisconsin, but in Washington State they are where experienced hunters of a specific game animal/bird volunteer to go alongside a "new" hunter to the activity. the new hunter must have completed the basic hunter education course with a passing grade and they supply their own rifle/gun and factory ammunition.

Last Wednesday I participated in a hunt involving the state department of Fish/Wildlife, the state Master Hunter Program and two NGOs: Pheasants forever and the First Hunt. Fairly early in the morning about 150 farm raised pheasants were released in a state owned game area - a few hundred acres. During that time the new hunters, generally kids from 8 - 16 but also adults that had not previously hunted pheasant prepared for the hunt, including several shots at clay pigeons to show familiarity with their gun. the mentor would observe the shooting and provide instruction/guidance/coaching where needed. Some of the mentors had bird dogs. After lunch (which was provided) the hunters were grouped so that each had a mentor per hunter and at least one dog per group. Each group had 3-4 hunters. the various aspects of safe hunting were discussed and demonstrated as the new hunters applied such concepts as Zones of Fire and safe muzzle control. In practice the hunts were 3-4 hunters on line, walking through a stubble field. Immediately behind the group, near the middle of the line was the dog owner, with the pointer working back and forth in front of the line. the mentors were about 20 feet behind their assigned hunter. for the most part, the mentors were quiet except when the hunter asked a question or the mentor noted some aspect that would improve the situation for the hunter.

the event had about 40 new hunters involved and I think there were about 60 birds killed, with nearly every hunter getting at least a shot at a bird and some killing two. The event was successful in that it provided a positive experience for the kids (and the adults) as compared to the experiences of several hunters where hours and hours are spent in the field and see nothing. particularly enjoyable, even for the mentors was to watch the dog and owner conduct a symphony as (in our group) a German Wirehair Pointer showed what a great bird dog she is.

In addition to pheasant hunts, there are also hunts or hunts being planned for new hunters for deer, elk, wild turkey, ducks, geese and other upland birds. Not all will have the kill rates of the pheasants because the others will be dealing with wild animals, but at least the new hunter would have access to an experience hunter to act as guide.

According to those in attendance, the event was very well received and could make a big difference in the young hunters future as to whether he/she continues or moves on to other activities.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I'm having difficulty deciding which would be better for deer class game: the mentioned 6x45 or the slightly larger 25/45 Sharps.

In all honesty you nor the deer will notice the difference. Pick the one with the most appeal to YOU and go with it.
That's what I did with a 6x45, plus it helped that I had a pile of 85 grain Sierra's in .243" in stock.

If .22 centerfires are legal your area, .223 or .222 is all you need. If a youngster can hit a basketball, they can hit the vital area. How is an animal not going to die if they take out heart, lung, or liver? Ive seen numerous deer taken with both those and one shot has been the rule.

My kids, grand kids and not to far off is my great grand kid killing deer with my Rem 222 or my custom Sako L-461 custom both weigh about 5 Lbs. scoped, that little Sako L-461 is quite tiny action and makes up into a beautiful gun.

Of the two the 6x45 is a better deer rifle, so you made a good pick there..I shoot GS Custom 80 gr.HV HP,s for deer, 75 gr. Barnes (discontinued but Im sure they have something close) and about any other bullet for varmints and most of them work on deer btw...I use two powders in the 6x45, H322 and H335 a 80 gr. bullet gets me 2900 FPS plus a little in my 18" barrel..No recoil and that is very important with children, too much recoil by a testosterone dad can ruin what he is wanting, a little man or girl to hunt with daddy..Make them use ear protection and start them off with absolute 0 recoil, and work up from there. The 222, 223, and 6x45 fill that bill.

Personally I would favor the .243 with a 22" barrel. It can be adequately loaded down in her younger years,with many different powders. Years later after she puts the original stock back on ammo and cases will be easier to come by and the factory ammo's recoil isn't that horrendous for an adult women should she not reload.
Normally I would recommend a 250-3000 but over the counter ammo in the future may be a thing of the past. The .243 ain't all bad. roger

As to caliber...I highly recommend the .300 Blackout for this application. Take a look at a Ruger American in this caliber.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3411043/m/6041070732

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Interested to know what is mean't by a "mentored hunt"? Is this a special hunt or season for youngsters?

Are you allowed or would you consider fitting a suppressor?

Suppressors are not legal here for hunting. It seems that Wisconsin's law is pretty much the same as NZ. In fact, Wisconsin's DNR gained some national attention when 10 infants purchased hunting licenses.

I don't think it is a crazy idea at all.
I have seen youngsters started on full size rifles and loads and grew to hate guns.

I bought a Remington 788 in 243 for my son and cut the stock down for him. He always complained till he turned 14 the barrel was really heavy to ther point Imade shooting sticks for him.


If you drive by Jill Ave there yell Hio to my daughter.


Al

Well to throw my .02 in the Grendel or the 6Cm. seems good. The Creedmoor case is about .011 I think longer than the good .250 Savage. The .250 is harder to get brass for though.

The 6mmBeggs is another choice but it would involve a custom barrel. It would allow you to use the Lapua .220 Russian brass avoiding the rigors of fire forming. The Blackout might be ok as well. Just about everyone makes a youth version stock so that could be cut down unless you want to go full custom and there are some greatly talented people around here able to supply that.

I would do everything I could to make the rifle fit her and be pleasant to shoot.

canadian: Don't forget that in the recoil formula the powder is part of the ejecta. That is why I would not use a downloaded 243 Win. but would stick with the .223 sized case. Regarding the rifle, length of pull is not the only consideration. That is why there are youth sized 22 rifles. Overall bulk is a consideration considering the young age of the shooter.
My recommendation is a Contender carbine in .223 or .357 maximum for the next couple years. When she has a little more muscle mass get her a Howa mini-mauser in 6.5 Grendel or better yet in 7mm TCU. Considering you have a few more daughters in the pipeline, the Conteder can move on to the next in line.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
As to caliber...I highly recommend the .300 Blackout for this application. Take a look at a Ruger American in this caliber.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3411043/m/6041070732

They offer it with a shorter stock too.

The small 6mm cartridges will do very well for small deer - consider .243 Win performance on game. The small guys will do as well as long as the ranges are kept short enough that the bullets will reliably open.

Yes, definitely get a twist that handles 100+ gr hunting bullets.

An alternative cartridge might be the 6.5 Grendel. This cartridge will display only a bit more recoil than the BR or the x45, being more like that of the .243 Win. Bullets in the 6.5 caliber will handle a larger variety of the bigger deer, etc.

quote:

The small 6mm cartridges will do very well for small deer - consider .243 Win performance on game. The small guys will do as well as long as the ranges are kept short enough that the bullets will reliably open.Yes, definitely get a twist that handles 100+ gr hunting bullets.

A 100 grain bullet is not necessary for clean kills on deer size animals. No reason at all to saddle the small cartridge with an extra heavy bullet. This year I had 3 one shot kills with 85 grain Sierra's HPBT in my 6x45. 125 yards, 150 yards and 315 yards.
Two dropped at the shot the other one tried to walk and made it 20-25 feet. I recovered one bullet weighing about 40% after passing through the body and found under the hide.

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
It -10 outside right now and I am stuck in the house with nothing better to do then to dream up my next gun project.

I think any time of the year is good for gun projects!

Check out the howa mini action:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/1491041322

I think it's sized better for 223 stuff and also comes in grendel if you don't want to swap the barrel out. It's getting some decent aftermarket support as well. For instance, boyds does stocks for it now.

The little sako actions are nice, but they seem to be rare and expensive. I wouldn't feel bad cutting up a $300 howa.

Have fun.

One slight bonus of the 25-45 vs 6x45 would be factory ammo. Other than that, flip a coin.

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/38252

I just bought one of the above, and it has a nice short stock, and when loaded with Sierra .311 dia prohunters, 29gr H322, it shoots nice small groups with VERY little recoil. This is what my son will use this fall if he's ready at the ripe old age of 4...I'm going start him on BB guns and a little 22 and see if he'll be capable.

I also have the Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel and 223, they are VERY nice rifles. Great triggers and after you nip the mag release off a bit they keep their guts in while handling. I'd recommend the 6.5 Grendel first, but the 7.62 will work well too.

Between friends/customers and myself we have used about a dozen of them and the Grendels have all shot sub MOA. Everyone that has one has been very happy with them.

That 7.62 already has a cut down stock and will fit most young'uns too.

Matt, that is a sweet little rifle!
I'm currently playing with loads in my 7.62x39 (AR15 platform).Mine is currently shooting tighter groups with .308" bullets than it is with .311" (weird huh?)
The 30/30 was and is an awesome deer killer and with the 7.62x39 only being a few steps behind the 30/30 in velocity it should work like a champ on deer and hogs.

I’m betting it will work very well. I think that Howa Mini action has a lot going for it. Real reason I picked up the one in 7.62 was to rebarrel it to 20 PPC, but after shooting it I think the one I have in 223 will becomes 20 Tactical as I have the reamer and dies for it already.

I have not handled a nicer youth rifle than that mini action rifle IMO...and I’ve gone through a few from M7’s, Savage, Browning, etc. the browning micro hunter in 7-08 is very good, but still oversized in comparison to these little Howas and I like the 6.5 Grendel better for the smaller shooters.