The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Sniper rifle caliber---Why 30 caliberGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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one of us |
I have a 25-06 that will keep all of it's bullets in a .50 inch circle at 100 meters. I'm using a Sierra 117 grain Spit BT at 2950 fps. I've used the 100 grain Speer hollowpoint Spit out to 400 plus meters on groundhogs with little difficulty. I should think that the ballistic design of this Sierra would make it very accurate and deadly. The Swedes used their 6.5 for sniping and it's only a smidgin larger at .264 then the 25-06s .257. Is the 30 caliber that much better or is it just tradition? Jim | ||
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| one of us |
The 30 is just because a lot of militarys use it. The 338 and 50 are coming on strong any accurate rifle can be used for sniping. Its just with the military that you have to have common cals. Easier to keep in stock ect ect. | |||
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one of us |
quote: The new swedish sniper rifle is in .308 Winch. (i.e. .308 NATO). Why? NATO has it... Fritz | |||
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| one of us |
quote:JIM/ the other post are correct in military background also in Police use there are "special Match loading" for the 308 and military match loadings...rounds such as your 25/06 may shoot well but are still "sporting-hunting" rounds and do not have the "extra care" type match loadings and are made for "animinals" and thus the "public" might be offended by the use of this to shoot "a human being" just a thought....enjoy your good shooting 25...good luck and good shooting!! | |||
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| <ssleefl> |
Some LEO's use .223, and .243 for sniping. But by far most use .30 cal. It's a weight thing. Less wind deflection and the ability to shoot through things like glass and car doors with enough retained energy to still get the job done is why. ------------------ Most divorces are based on disagreements over small matters, so are most murders. | ||
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| one of us |
Speaking of LEO's using 223's for sniping. Remember that situation in California where an Asian gang took bank customers hostage inside the bank? Remember the footage of the sniper shooting through the glass in an attempt to down one of the captors? The glass shatered, the target was unhurt, and several people lost their lives or were wounded - on camera - when the gang members reacted. I believe that was a 223. | |||
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| one of us |
Just a few reasons my Dept uses .308 The .308 Win round is inherently very accurate. There are numerous extremely accurate rifles available in the caliber. .308 match loads are the accuracy standard for any sniper rifle. The round hits hard enough to do the required job, and shoots flat enough for any reasonable range. Recoil is not an issue in case of multiple targets. It's a proven performer, and really need no improvement. If it ain't broke.............. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
From the replies that I recieved. I be willing to state that if there had been as much time, research devoted to 243 Win., 270 Win. or the 7mm Rem. Mag I would have asking the same question about one ot the other of them. There is nothing magic about the 308 other then there's more data and more of them out there being used. Jim | |||
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| <Rust> |
The simple reason that the .308 is the standard military "sniper" cartridge is it is a military cartridge, and in a pinch M-60 ammo could be delinked and used, or any other military .308. The problem with using anything other than a standard military chambering is logistics, plain and simple. Kind of hard to send back to the States for more .260 or 25-06 or whatever someone had as their personal favorite if it isn't available where you are at. Yup, there are .300 Winmags and .338 Lapuas in the system, but not a lot of them and not widely deployed. Mission specific weapons. And had not the US military switched to .308 the cartridge of choice for military sniping systems would still be the 30-06. | ||
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| one of us |
I agree with all the above comments concerning the merits of 7.62/.308 over 5.56/.223. Here's a valid example: whilst at the range last week, I was shooting both my .22/250 varmint gun (same bullet as .223 don't forget) and my Lee Enfield .303 (circa 1943). One knock-down target at 400 yards was behind a bush - the .303 would push through the twigs and drop the target, the .22/250 wouldn't. Sorry to have to say this but it seems quite likely that in the forthcoming set-to in Afghanistan, the .30 cal weapons will probably demonstrate their superiority over the .22 calibre mouse guns. | |||
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| <gone hunting> |
quote: a few years ago the co. i work for sent me to Colombia south America to work out a problem with some mining equipment. the Colombian army had troops everywhere. i talked to the only one who spoke english. a sharp shooter who was trained by our Marine corp. the rifle he was using was a SAKO TRG 7mm Rem mag. with Zeiss scope. brass had no markings at all. ------------------ | ||
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| new member |
Most police dept.s and their SWAT's etc. use the .308. Some progessive dept.s have allowed the guys to go to 300 Win Mag, 7MM etc. I won't go to the political side of this. Our military S.F.'s are NOT using this. Most are using the 50 BMG, and some the .338 Lapua. Some are carrying something most never have heard of yet. The local guys are years behind the military in this. Because, as you've said: former military cartridge, ammo, match ammo, training{?}. Another thing, it don't look good to take out a guy in front of CNN News with a .50. Good huntin Dave | |||
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| <350RM> |
It seems to me that the military snipers shoot the 308 with hpbt bullets because it is available in any country member of NATO. Moreover, the 308 is the standard caliber for the medium machine gun, so availability of the round is no question. The other widely available round is the 223, and its reach is not long enough. And the "green plants" (I did my military service in the Navy)  have to use ball ammo, match bullets being authorized for sniper only.As for Police snipers, the problem is really different: no risk of falling short of ammo, and all kinds of bullets are permitted. Well I feel there are much better solutions, and our police and anti terrorism forces use them. They go for a high SD bullet at 3000 fps minimum, and a hunting bullet of course (the partition being accurate and reliable in expansion / weight retention, they often go for it). All in all, given the type of target, the distances involved, and the necessary amount of training, I would settle for a 257Wby or a 270Wby with partition or barnes bullets (highest BC): easy to shoot well, high velocity on impact and high SD for low deflection (wind and glass impact). olivier | ||
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| one of us |
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| one of us |
Alf, What sort of accuracy is that Dragunov capable of? | |||
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| one of us |
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| <KING> |
Folks I have no experience in sniping, but! I have used the .223 for varmints and deer. They worked ok. I don't own a 308, which I wish I did but I use the rifle that I have. It's a 8x57jsmauser. I know it doesn't compare to a 308 in Ballistics but loaded properly it functions OK. It's kinda accurate? | ||
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| one of us |
I believe the FBI sharpshooters that guard the Pres on outings use the 7 mag. Read an article sometime back about how they were all cut with the same reamer- the guns uniformed as much as possible. Then a special run of factory ammo was loaded to their spec. Guess they would all beat moa to 1000 yds. | |||
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one of us |
I believe that part of the answer lies with MATCH results. If you check, Palma, Wimbeldon, or Williamsport and others, you will not find a 7mm Rem Mag, 25-06, 270, 243, 300 winchester mag or any other "pet" round. You will find the 308, 30-06, 300 H&H, 30-378 Wby, and so on.. The others just aren't "accurate enough" from one rifle to the next. I believe that part of the answer lies is with recoil. In order to become an effective sniper, you have to shoota lot I'm a pretty big guy, and I can't imagine shooting 150 rounds of 300 Win Mag in an afternoon, let alone something heavier. I'm in the process of building a heavy match rifle right now on a 98 Mauser action. It will be a 308. ------------------ | |||
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| <nated> |
most of the info above is great, but with little emphasis on the 300 win. i know that plenty of navy special warfare units use it, not the sf, for long range sniping. it'll maintain sub MOA out to 1000 yds. what more do you need, seeing how much the wind affects anything out that far. they also use a 190 bthp, to buck the wind better. and they do shoot 100+ rounds in a day. it depends on what you need it for. most swat and pd shots are less than 100 yds. a .22 mag would do the job, but a 308 is used for more obvious reasons (penetration, wind-bucking, etc.) some guys shoot .22 cal guns to 1000 yds accurately, does that mean everyone can call wind that far away? it's about the specific job, and IMO the .308 is a fairly underated round given it's capablities. opinions are like b-holes, everyone has one & thanks for listening to mine. nate | ||
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| one of us |
quote:
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| <Reloader66> |
The military and civilian snipers are two different entities and are trained in two different theaters. Civilian use of the sniper rifles is primarily used in hostage situations. They use the 30 cal .308 diameter bullet because it is final in it's effect on the intended target and is a proven performer for that purpose through military use and testing. All civilian, such as police sharp shooters, are trained to shoot all their targets in the head. Any human struck in the head by the 30 caliber bullet is instantly and immediately disabled. Hostage takers in the civilian sector of life in America from the outset of the event are dead men but don't know they are until the sharpshooters take their positions. The instant the sharpshooters give the signal that he is in position and ready to fire. The name of the game then becomes guiding the hostage taker into position to be shot in the head as soon as the opportunity presents itself. The .308 diameter bullet is a proven performer, through testing, when it comes disabling any human struck in the head by the projectile. The military have had a major effect on cartridge choices made by the civilian police departments all across the USA. | ||
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one of us |
I would look for the new .300WSM to take a bite out of the .308s domination of sniper rifles. A lot of sniper schools are already reporting lots of WSMs showing up in their classes. I am building a new M24 type rifle in .300 WSM, and I also have sniper rifles in .223 and .308. I love all accurate rifles, but I prefer a heavier bullet at long range for less wind deflection and gerater retained energy. Shoot a gong at long range with different calibers and you'll see what advantage a 168gr. .308 has over the .25-06 or a .223. I wouldn't expect the .308 to lose it's position as the standard sniper round as long as it's a NATO standard, regardless of what your '06 or my WSM can do. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
The main problem with chaning for the 7.62 NATO is the huge amount of rifles used all over the world. Changing a standard NATO service cartridge would cost goverments through out the world millions of dollars. It's simply not feasible at this time, and why fix it, if it ain't broken? | |||
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| one of us |
Once again increases in velocity are confused with accuracy. If the sniper knows and is comfortable with his weapon, and most do, the target is in trouble. Too much interpretation of a military sniper's mission as one shot one kill (brought to you by Hollywood-the same people that have inspired the anti-gun movement). Popping the pumpkin is mostly macho bullshit. In an assasination this is desirable, but not all snipers are or were Carlos Hathcock. War is not a glamorous or pretty business. Better the sniper wound the enemy usually in the abdominal region. This ties up additional personnel to retrieve and tend the wounded individual (exposing them and removing them from the battle), and his screams have a demorralizing effect on the rest of his comrades. If the .308 keyholes him at 1,000 yds. So much the better. The .30 caliber bucks the wind and deflects less. And correct, ammunition is available at any M-60, so you don't have to hump so much weight. | |||
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| <Daryl Elder> |
  [This message has been edited by Daryl Elder (edited 01-27-2002).] | ||
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| one of us |
Gunnery SGT.Carlos Hathcock Used a 50cal machinegun in Vietnam with a 3x9 scope.If my memory serves me corrctly he modified it to shoot single shot or maybe he didnt use a belt.I think he also had a Mod.70 in 300 win. and one in 30-06. | |||
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| <Kimmo E> |
The swedish military use 4,3mm(.17) undercaliber bullet in 308 nato at 1350 m/s for sniping. Then the US military accepted 223 nato they found that 308 was penetrating a helmet at about 700m but the 223 did it at about 1000m. A small cal. fast bullet has a shorter range time less wind impact. | ||
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| one of us |
Yes Hathcock did attach a scope to a M2, but found that the M2 and the sloppy 50bmg loadings just didn't make it viable. Kimmo, yes the small calibers will penetrate armor better then the .308, but the 223 won't do anyone much harm @ 1000 yards. The advanage of the 30 caliber is retained energy at long range and less wind deflection. | |||
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| <Gunner> |
FWIW - the current US military sniper rifles in standard use (not in the Special Operations community) are chambered in .308 or 300 Win Mag. Ammo availability is the number one reason for 308; but this might change with the standardization of .223 as the NATO service round... US Secret Service counter snipers use HIGHLY accurized 7mm magnums and swear by them - these are guys that could have any rifle in any caliber they wanted... Regards, Kevin | ||
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| <.> |
The sniper rifle I have is from Oregon State Police. It's Rem. 700 PSS, Springfield Govt. Tactical scope. .223 Rem. I've had it set-back (free bore eliminated) and rechambered for Ack. Imp. -- shoots eggs at 350 meters. 30 cal bullets hold velocity better than the lighter stuff. | ||
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| <cougarhunting> |
I used to shoot a 25-06 for paper punching in competions what I didnt like about it was that at five hundred yards at the range it couldnt knock over a steel pig you could hear it hit metal but not knock it over and thats why I prefered a 300 win mag I would imagine for a sniper at longer ranges you not only need to hit your target but do some damage. | ||
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