I just picked up another 25 super short after realizing how much I and my kids missed the last one. I have only had the super shorts in Browning rifles and found them all to be quite accurate for what they were. The 223 is way too hard on barrels, the 243 shows no real advantage over the 308 based version...but the 25 is a true gem. I love the 25-06, but the wssm sets itself apart as a carry rifle and for all practcal purposes duplicates 06 performance. Barrel life is comparable, or even better and the cases hold up very well. Did it fail for lack of a decent launch platform, the stigma of the other two, or am I just the one of the very few that actually likes the 25 super short?

quote:

Did it fail for lack of a decent launch platform, the stigma of the other two, or am I just the one of the very few that actually likes the 25 super short?

One never really knows why some things sell and others fail....it's a crap shoot but I'm guessing there just wasn't a market for it....the customer simply said...."what for?"

My guess would be that the market was over-saturated with short mag this and short mag that, and the 25WSSM came along at the tail end of that craze. Then Winchester shut down, and that was the final nail in the coffin.

All that notwithstanding, I love my little 25WSSM M70 FWT.

RCBS die sales by year:

2004:
.25 WSSM - #39
.25-06 - #25
.257 WBY - #41

2005:
.25 WSSM - #25
.25-06 - #16
.257 WBY - >#25

2007:
.25 WSSM - #47
.25-06 - #15
.257 WBY - #29

2011:
.25 WSSM - >#30
.25-06 - #16
.257 WBY - #25



.

olarmy,

you suck for having that rifle LOL! jk, but that is my unicorn rifle at the moment. been searching for 2 years to find one and still keep coming up short. even considered a 243 wssm FWT and having it re-bored to 257. Got a set of dies waiting for the rifle. I dearly miss my M70 Coyote, traded it for a kind of beat up pre-64 magnum action....still kick myself for that. probably my stupidest gun trade ever.

Although maybe I need to temp fate....anyone want to buy my never been used 25wssm dies??? 20$ shipped. Almost guarantee if I sell the dies I'll run across the rifle I want a week later LMAO

milehigh: here you go!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=293069560

I want one, but not for 1200$ lol

I am so HAPPY with my M-70 25 WSSM FWT that I bought in 2005. Oh, yes did it ever have problems, but with proper bedding and a trigger job did it start to shine. The worst problem was the miserable WW brass. Out of 500 cases, at least 70 were junk. But, once-fired GOOD cases with a .257" fired inside neck ream(Brass MUCH to thick) could be made to perform really well, up to 10 firings. To date, this SWEET little rife is probably my favorite. It really handles well, and is accurate to boot. Its best load is with the Barnes 80gr. ttsx and H-4895 and CCI BR-2 for 3508fps /12e.s. Grouping consistently less than an inch. Nice, I think for a "whippy" barreled small rifle. I just LOVE this rifle and ctg. I just wish I had it in my Mt. Goat hunting days back in the sixties.

My father won one at a banquet and loves it. I can't say I have any issue with it but when I already am a fan of the .257 Roberts, and owned a .25-06 years before they came out with short fat magnum anything I just couldn't see enough advantage to change to one.

and the cases are butt ugly!

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
RCBS die sales by year:

2004:
.25 WSSM - #39
.25-06 - #25
.257 WBY - #41

2005:
.25 WSSM - #25
.25-06 - #16
.257 WBY - >#25

2007:
.25 WSSM - #47
.25-06 - #15
.257 WBY - #29

2011:
.25 WSSM - >#30
.25-06 - #16
.257 WBY - #25



.

nimrod: Is that info available for all cartridges? If so can you share the location? thanks

Depending on the year I have the top 25 or top 50 die sales. The info is compiled from e-mails I have received from RCBS over the years. I can send you a spreadsheet I put together with all the data if you PM me your e-mail address.



.

I've been a strong 25 WSSM supporter since 2004 and currently have 15 of them, all Winchester/USRA 70s.

5 of them are shot quite extensively, with the other 10 remaining NIB.

3 of the 5 are my primary varmint rifles; a stainless barreled 70 Coyote, a stainless 70 Coyote barrel that I've installed on a 70 Super Shadow action and bedded in a McMillan stock, and a stainless 1-14" ROT Shilen barrel that I've installed on a 70 Super Shadow action and bedded in a McMillan stock. These 3 rifles have had between 700 and 2400 rounds down the tubes without any lose of MOA+/- accuracy. I shoot the 75 grain VMax aheasd of H4895 in resized Federal 223 or 243 WSSM cases.

The other 2 are a stainless 70 Ultimate Shadow that I've bedded in a McMillan Compact stock, the only after-market synthetic stock that I found which doesn't overwhelm the super short 70 action, and a 70 Super Shadow that remains in its factory specs, except for a Krylon paint job, Khaki camo with black webbing, and glass beding. The 70 stainless Ultimate Shadow is my primary deer rifle and it set up with Leupold QR mounts, so that I can swap scopes. I really like the Leupold 6x42 with a heavy duplex reticle for low light shooting and either the VX-II 2-7x33 or VX-II 3-9x33 UL for most other scenarios.

I have 223s WSSMs and 243 WSSMs, all Winchester/USRA 70s, but seldom shoot them. Ballistically speaking, the 25 WSSM can be reloaded to the same level of performance as the 257AI and 25-284, but not quite as fast as the 25-06. Wichester/Olin loads the factory ammo for both the 25 WSSM and 25-06 equally, but the you can squeeze some more speed out of the 25-06, but will find it hard, maybe impossible, to exceed the 25 WSSM factory loads with the same bullets. I shoot the 75 grain VMax in my 25 WSSM varmint rifles and either 100 grain bullets or the 110 grain AccuBond in my deer rifles. The Winchester/Olin factory ammo that I've shot; 85 grain SBT, 110 grain AB, 115 grain SBT, and 120 grain PEP hand all been pretty accurate, with the 120 grain PEP shooting sub-MOA in the 70 Coyote and 70 Super Shadow.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
Depending on the year I have the top 25 or top 50 die sales. The info is compiled from e-mails I have received from RCBS over the years. I can send you a spreadsheet I put together with all the data if you PM me your e-mail address.



.

will do, thanks!

I have a Browning A-Bolt hunter in 25 WSSM. I like the rifle a lot and it is my summer carry rifle on the farm. It has killed its share of Varmints and hogs. I have also killed 2 deer with it. As much as I like the A-Bolt, I would love to have a M70 FWT.

I neck turn all of my brass for the 25 WSSM. I have a Wilson neck size die with bushings set up for a .010 neck thickness. Since I started neck turning, I have not had any problems with cases being hard to chamber. I really hated to see the caliber being dropped.

I won a Abolt 25wssm on a gun raffle. It has been my favorite rifle for 5 years(10 deer). Just never reloaded for the gun. It may be the best of the super shorts.

I think that the majority of people who don't like the entire WSSM line feel that way for 1 of 2 reasoons:

1. They've never owned a WSSM, may never even have shot 1 and formed their opinion based of the input of others, many of whom have opined based on speculation, rather than actual experience.

2. They feel that the WSSM line is totally redundant and since they already have experience with the existing cartridges in those niches, they don't want to spend time on a new cartridge and a rifle that doesn't have many rebarreling options, should they decide that they don't like the WSSM.

I've never heard of a poor shooting Browning and the only Winchester/USRA 70s that I've heard a lot of grumbling about is the 223 WSSM and only because of the 1-10" ROT and the chrome lined bores. I understand that Winchester/USRA was on its last legs when the WSSMs were made in New Haven, CT, but the QC on mine has been at least as good as the average production line rifle from any American manufacturer.

I think that the 25 WSSM is the best of the bunch, particularly if you are a reloader. I think that Winchester/Olin would have helped the 25 WSSM if they had offered standard grade ammo with 75, 100, and 120 grain bullets. There isn't anything wrong with the 85 grain SBT, 110 grain AB, or 115 grain SBT, but the premium ammo has always been more expensive.

Jeff

I'm not a fan of the WSSM line (or the WSM line, for that matter), but I don't fall into either of the above categories.

My reasons for avoiding these cartridges:

1. Greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to standard cartridges, usually from five to three. Some magazines refuse to feed if you place more than two down.

2. Greatly increased chamber pressure in factory loads in order to approach claimed velocities. All SM rifles I have worked with exhibited unsustainable pressures in factory loads, including stick bolt lift.

3. Very expensive ammunition and brass; scarce availability of ammunition and brass.

4. Minimal reduction in action size/weight as compared to a standard cartridge -- approximatley 3/4 inch and four ounces.

5. They just plain look silly.

Other than #5, I think these are valid issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I'm not a fan of the WSSM line (or the WSM line, for that matter), but I don't fall into either of the above categories.

My reasons for avoiding these cartridges:

1. Greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to standard cartridges, usually from five to three. Some magazines refuse to feed if you place more than two down.

2. Greatly increased chamber pressure in factory loads in order to approach claimed velocities. All SM rifles I have worked with exhibited unsustainable pressures in factory loads, including stick bolt lift.

3. Very expensive ammunition and brass; scarce availability of ammunition and brass.

4. Minimal reduction in action size/weight as compared to a standard cartridge -- approximatley 3/4 inch and four ounces.

5. They just plain look silly.

Other than #5, I think these are valid issues.

Not trying to be argumentative, just offering a different perspective:

1) not an issue for me, been deer hunting 57 years and never came close to needing more than 3 shots.

2) no issue here either, I handload and the 25WSSM has about the same case capacity as the 257AI...just about perfect for the quarterbore, IMO. No, I don't match, nor try, nor need, to match 25/06 ballistics.

3) another non-issue for me. got lots of brass...and bullets and powder. I like some of the other non-popular cartridges, too. Finding brass has never been an issue.

4) It's subjective, but the handling charactoristics of my M70 FWT in 25WSSM is noticeably different than my other M70 FWT's.

YMMV, cheers

Really I think everyone can agree that .257 diameter bullets in various weights are known killers on Deer and similar animals.
The brass case that it's launched from has no meaning to the dead Deer, it's just dead.
Dead from a 25 WSSM, dead from a .250 Savage, dead from a 25/06, dead from a .257 Roberts or its "improved" version they are all just means to launch 25 caliber bullets.
I shoot a .257 Roberts and 117 grain Sierra's for Deer and Antelope and I wouldn't notice any difference if it were a 25/06 or a 25 WSSM.
Good hunting with your 25 cal. and whatever variant of these you shoot, they are all excellent!

quote:

Not trying to be argumentative, just offering a different perspective:

1) not an issue for me, been deer hunting 57 years and never came close to needing more than 3 shots.

2) no issue here either, I handload and the 25WSSM has about the same case capacity as the 257AI...just about perfect for the quarterbore, IMO. No, I don't match, nor try, nor need, to match 25/06 ballistics.

3) another non-issue for me. got lots of brass...and bullets and powder. I like some of the other non-popular cartridges, too. Finding brass has never been an issue.

4) It's subjective, but the handling charactoristics of my M70 FWT in 25WSSM is noticeably different than my other M70 FWT's.

I can't disagree with a single word said here, but the question remains.....why run out and buy a .25 WSSM over a .257 Roberts or a .25-06.

While one can successfully argue that it's disadvantages are negligible.....let us discuss it's advantages.....(IMO equally negligible)

vapo: I agree. We are struggling with minutia .

I'm a 257 Roberts nut. And getting the WSSM has not made me want to dispose of a Roberts or a 25/06. But it is a light sweet little rifle and I have enjoyed working with it.

quote:

But it is a light sweet little rifle and I have enjoyed working with it.

And that's ALL the reason anyone ever needs. I am just dumbfounded at how so many folks have to take issue with the dreams and desires of others. We would have fewer heated disputes if we'd MOOB (unless safety is a concern).....


.

OOPS. Forgot three more reasons I don't like the WSSM's:

6. The case is too fat to fit in my favorite Lee Auto Prime tool.

7. Since the loaded round is almost as wide as long, this makes it difficult to load your magazine by feel in the dark. (I'll admit to never having tried to load a WSSM in the dark, so this is actually a theoretical complaint. )

8. The ejected shell is so short and bottom-heavy that it tends to land on its base, leaving the sharp edges of the mouth turned straight upward where it might puncture tires or injure feet through thin-soled shoes. (Okay, this one is also theoretical, but we're all entitled to our harmless personal prejudices, aren't we?)

I have the 25wssm in a Coyole lite, love the gun, it is my go to whitetail ,all weather gun. I have a 4.5 x14 leupold with the varmint hunters reticule, 12 + deer and several coyotes, It will hit a dime cold bore at 100. I shoot 110 accubond and 120 gr PEP factory ammo. Its just a short 25-06 same ballistics at a higher pressure. If I ever wear it out I will rebarrel, I put in enough ammo to run several years as it is getting harder to find locally.