My son will be nine this fall, and we want to do some hunting together. Moatly it will be whitetails, but also the occasional trip to Texas for hogs. I was considering a .243 youth model, someone suggested a 7mm-08, or I could lighten the load on the ol model 94 30-30 and start with the open sights. Most rifles, even adult .22s are a littel big for him yet, and I want him to be comfortable. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Whatever you let him shoot, make sure he will not be scared by it, so it has to fit, and it can't hit him too hard. The .243 youth rifle sounds like a good idea, later you can always upgrade the stock.

The .30-30 will work if it fits, and if you make sure the recoil of your (reduced) loads will not bother him. Wear a PAST pad on the range!!

I'd personally stay away from the 7mm-08, plenty of time for one of those (or a .270) in the future.

Other decent, low recoiling calibers include the 250 Savage, .257 Roberts and the 6.5x55 - unless you are happy to have him shoot a .224 cal centerfire.

- mike

I went through this same scenario, and decided on a 243.

I am not comfortable with a 243 for most larger animals, but after some thought I realized the purpose of this gun is not a kill-all hunting rifle, the purpose here is to give my son a pleasant and confident time while learning how to hunt.

I'd scope it as well. My teaching progression was to start everyone out with a scope (we also have 1 gun with a red dot) and when they are comfortable with a scope to move to a gun with a peep sight. They picked that up in about half a dozen shots. Then you can go to an open sight, they know what to do now and they have the confidence.

Another thing I'd suggest is cut the stock to where is fits and use a decent recoil pad. The past shield is also a good recommendation, I need to get one of those as they don't want to shoot shotguns now because of the recoil.

If you get him a gun he's comfortable with now, he'll outgrow it in a few years and then be wanting something a little bigger anyway, which is much better than too much gun now.

A .22 rimfire is the most I'd let a 9-yr old carry.....and then a single shot that was cut down to fit.

I am not big on starting kids off with minimal caliber guns. I understand you don't want to hurt them and make them gun shy but. sometimes you just have to make them wait till they can handle an adequate caliber. That said If you are able to reload you have no need to arm your son with a .243 or or .22 centerfire.

Take a caliber like the .260 7-08 or whatever your favorite is and try reduced loads. The .260 and 6.5x55 are nice rounds for light recoil. I load for and shoot both.
Seafire has posted many reports on reduced loads with Blue Dot powder. I have been playing with them and have loaded 8x57 rounds that a kid could shoot that still push a 175 grain bullet over 2000 feet per second. That still gives over 1000 pounds of energy at 200 yards!

I was a small youth and I will tell you a gun that fits well meens alot. Everyone makes a big deal about rifle recoil but in my opinion shotguns kick worse. Parents give a kid a light 20 gauge that knocks their sox off then worrys they can't handle a 30-30. My only complaint about lever guns is the safety factor when unloading. I did fine but I started shooting before I was even in school. Handleing firearms was natural for me by the time I was old enough to hunt.

So I say find a caliber you want to load for. Find a reduced load and make sure the rifle fits.

I know that Jacobite's options will get the job done. The options of .243 and 250-3000 are just as viable. Either way you can have a win win hunting rifle. roger

I recomend the .257 Roberts.
A great round my buddies 11 year old daughter shoots mine quite well...tj3006

My personal experience with the 243 is that it will kick just as hard as a 308Win. Both are too much for a 9yr old unless he has shot a lot and is pretty beefy.

We have a boy scout shoot every year at our gun club and I have helped out with the black powder shooting for many years. The young people really pick up on it fast, and with peep sights can hit a clay pidgeon within two or three shots at 25 yds. Once they figure it out, its is awesome to see them hit.

You can keep loads moderate and let the boy work up. Based upon what he can hit with, adjust the range to the load. Even heavy black powder loads tend to push more than kick and the rifles are heavy. In the future, it will let him start his season early, and he won't just go to the range and see how many "caps he can pop."

If you really want a center fire, consider a 308 and use a 30-30 bullet (flatnose) reloaded at low velocity. You can custom build a load for him that is good out to 100yds or so that won't pound him. You can load 110 or 120's for practice and keep his 150gr load (I think they are lightest flatnose bullets made) shooting to a minimum. A nice bolt gun that fits him with a very good recoil pad will help even more. Don't be afraid to cut the stock and piece it back together with pegs as he grows.

Good on you for taking up hunting and teaching him how to shoot. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
A .22 rimfire is the most I'd let a 9-yr old carry.....and then a single shot that was cut down to fit.

Remington Model Seven youth in 260 remington

handload 100 grain Partitions over 36 grains of H4895. Should do around 2700 fps and be plenty for 200 yard shots on deer.

Later you can load up heavier loads, and one day he can get a full size stock for the Model Seven and shoot 140s @ 2700 fps. Awesome cartridge, very versatile

New England Arms have a couple of youth rifles in single shots...The nice option with this, is that you can pick a caliber like a 223 or so... for around $200.00....

you can get other barrels for it, for less than $90.00 at New England Arms...

Stevens Arms are also another route to work up as the barrels are easily changed to a different caliber as the kid gets older...

Both the New England and the Stevens won't loose much of their original purchase price if you decide to sell down the road....

If you handload.... ANY Caliber can be made to have an MV of 2000 to 2200 fps ( 30/30 speeds).. and be quite effective for deer out to 200 yds or more...with pretty low recoil...

I just bought a CZ in 6.5x55 for my daughter to start with. I'll hunt with it a little as well. If it needed to be it could be her only gun.

I agree with with Todbartell,Remington Model Seven youth in 260 Remington. The 260 Rem was a perfect match for my small statured grandson. The 100gr NP is designed for this calibre and is excellent for deer. The 100gr Sierra HP is ideal for practice and varmints. The 260 is ballistically superior to the 243.

You want something that won't knock the snot out of them but is still an effective weapon. I wouldn't handicap any kid by starting them out with a .243 nor a .410 shotgun.
A properly fitted .260 would be minimum IMO.
A very serious question however, why does a kid, 9 years old, have to kill a deer? Who's ego is being stroked? There's a lotsa stuff out there that can be hunted with a .22. And a day just hacking around, maybe shooting at a squirrel or two or a rabbit or just "targets of opportunity" can teach a lot about the outdoors, marksmanship, and safe gun handling. As well as intangibles that will last a lifetime.

I'd echo Don's suggestions here. You can load a 7-08 down to 243 or 260 recoil, using lighter bullets while still being very effective on the game you're talking about hunting. As he grows, add a thick recoil pad (and/or spacer)for length & he will still have a rifle he can shoot for many years. I find (some) women & kids actually seem less recoil sensitive than I am. This is the approach I took with my wife and built her a Ruger RSI in 7-08 and loaded it down for hogs & deer in FL and up for the elk & moose hunting we did in ID & AK and it worked great for her. She's 5'1" & weighs not much over 100#. She took a lot of game with that rifle, all over the country until her interest in gardening overtook her interest in hunting . Here's a moose she took with it in AK:
http://hometown.aol.com/brayhaven/myhomepage/huntfish.html

quote:

Originally posted by Jacobite:
I am not big on starting kids off with minimal caliber guns. I understand you don't want to hurt them and make them gun shy but. sometimes you just have to make them wait till they can handle an adequate caliber. That said If you are able to reload you have no need to arm your son with a .243 or or .22 centerfire.

Take a caliber like the .260 7-08 or whatever your favorite is and try reduced loads. The .260 and 6.5x55 are nice rounds for light recoil. I load for and shoot both.
Seafire has posted many reports on reduced loads with Blue Dot powder. I have been playing with them and have loaded 8x57 rounds that a kid could shoot that still push a 175 grain bullet over 2000 feet per second. That still gives over 1000 pounds of energy at 200 yards!

I was a small youth and I will tell you a gun that fits well meens alot. Everyone makes a big deal about rifle recoil but in my opinion shotguns kick worse. Parents give a kid a light 20 gauge that knocks their sox off then worrys they can't handle a 30-30. My only complaint about lever guns is the safety factor when unloading. I did fine but I started shooting before I was even in school. Handleing firearms was natural for me by the time I was old enough to hunt.

So I say find a caliber you want to load for. Find a reduced load and make sure the rifle fits.

Depending on the kid's age and build, if he is not real big, I would suggest a 243 or a 250 Savage. I'm kind of partial to the 250, but both will get the job done on a Deer, with good bullet placemant.
I have a 250 and think it's the best "forgotten" round in the system; Forgotten because few factory makers chamber for it.

Don

anything but 243 257 or larger bullet 100 gr or heavyer above 2600 fps

My son learnt at 9 with a 22rf and graduated to a single shot break open 5.6x50R with 30gr bullets followed by 50gr and is now on (and will stay with 60gr) all under light charges of Unique or SR4759.

I tought him that he must must must only take the shot when I say and if he knows he is going to hit where he aimed. He knows I will forgive him if it takes a step or moves as he shoots but not if he takes a shot when he is unsteady.

He is a great shot with such training. I myself shoot best with a moderated 243 so much so that I recently took it on a weekend for reds because I just know that the bullet goes where I put it and I don't flinch.

I shot and killed a 250-275lb live weight red with one 105gr through both shoulders - it only went 60yards

So IMHO start with 22rf, move to a 243 with 55gr under light powder charges and gradualy work up, First sign of discomfort move back to the 22rf but try not to get to the discomfort stage - it really wrecks their accuracy and takes a lot of getting rid of and has a tendency to reappear when least wanted.

I really like the T/C Encore youth model in .243 for this purpose. The stock can be upgraded later to a larger size. It is a single shot so you have the chance to stress one shot accuracy. It is a platform for many other calibers as he grows.

I built a 7.62 x 39 on a mauser action for my kids when they were about 9, it worked great. They loved shooting a "BIG" caliber and ammo was cheep, so plenty of shooting at the range. Deer seasons were and are deadly. With them now grown they fill my freezere as well as their own.

I've done a lot of "fitting" guns for kids and training them to shoot. My son started on both shotgun and centerfire (deer) rifle at age 7; each child matures at a different rate, but most 9 year-olds are old enough for a centerfire rifle provided they have the proper background (BB gun, .22RF, gun safety and handling experience) and supervision.

Here are some important but often overlooked issues:

1. Guns are long for a small shooter. The barrel, as well as the stock, needs to be appropriately short in order to keep the gun's overall length (and weight) managable. This causes more muzzle blast, so attention is needed in that area. Although I regard single shot break-open actions poorly, they do have the advantage of being much shorter overall than bolts, so you might want to consider that if your 9 year-old is on the smallish side.

2. Muzzle blast is MUCH more intimidating to a novice shooter than recoil. In reality, the recoil of a .243 when fired from a standing position is negligible, even to a very small shooter. Make sure that the kid ALWAYS has very good ear protection in order to mitigate muzzle blast. YOU shoot the gun first in their presence so that they will know what to expect when the gun fires. DON'T start them off from the bench -- move to that after they have mastered (or at least are accustomed to) offhand shooting.

3. Kids have small, thin faces and the distance from the cheek to the eye is less than with an adult. As a result, the stock drop on most guns is almost always excessive for them. Utilize either a tie-on comb extender or slab on a piece of wood to raise the comb to the proper height. Also make sure that the scope is mounted as low as possible. Doing these things will allow the young shooter to properly align his eye for the scope picture without his head bobbing around in the air. THIS IS IMPORTANT! By the way, the hardest thing for most novice shooters is attaining and keeping the sight picture in the scope. So, use a low power scope with generous eye relief and a long and wide eye window. Provided the kid can acquire and maintain the sight picture readily, scopes are much easier to shoot with than iron sights. However, there's nothing wrong with iron sights and the extended focusing ability of young eyes make them easier for a nine year-old to use (once he understands them) than for a forty year-old.

4. Kids like to see things happen when they shoot. Just making a little hole in a piece of paper doesn't mean much, nor does it illustrate the destructive and deadly nature of the gun they are shooting. Fill some gallon plastic jugs with water for starter targets. The kid will get the gratification of seeing something significant happen when he hits his target (positive reinforcement), and it will illustrate just how destructive and potentially lethal the rifle he is shooting can be.

5. Caliber: Deer and hogs die about as quickly and surely when shot with a .223 as with anything else (despite the opinions of some who insist on .300 magnums with bullets designed for cape buffalo for their whitetail hunting). However, since it is muzzle blast and not recoil that is the issue, you might as well use a .243. Larger calibers provide no real advantage. There is no deer or hog that won't die RIGHT AWAY when shot in the vitals with any reasonable load from a .243. Most factory 100 grain loads are NOT reasonable loads, unfortunately, as they loaf along at around 2700 fps and expansion and penetration are haphazard. Just as you would respect any game you are hunting by utilizing appropriate ammunition, make sure your kid's rifle is loaded with something that works. Drop back to an 85 or 90 grain bullet and load it to an appropriate velocity somewhere above 3100 fps. There's nothing wrong with a good 100 grain bullet, either, so long as you get the velocity up to what is required to impart adequate energy to a lighter weight bullet. Remember, it is energy that creates trauma, and trauma that kills game (not simply "penetration"). For relatively lightweight game like whitetails you'll almost always get faster kills with lighter-faster bullets than with slower-heavier bullets. These ain't moose, you know.

(Where the masculine pronoun "he" is used above to refer to the shooter-in-training, is should be read to include the femanine pronoun "her" as well.)

Stonecreek ! That was a really well thought out, impressive and informative reply. You're not really from Texas ;are you? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Stonecreek ! That was a really well thought out, impressive and informative reply. You're not really from Texas ;are you? roger

and this from a Californian???????

Actually Roger, if you've been reading Stonecreeks posts you know by now that he's one of the more knowlegeable posters on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Stonecreek ! That was a really well thought out, impressive and informative reply. You're not really from Texas ;are you? roger

and this from a Californian???????

Well VD I started life as a buckeye, that was transplanted in Colorado.Not being able to servive for long (8years) I moved west to strike it rich ;( well modestly fixed for my retirement years anyway). Thanks for the low down on Stonecreek. I'll have to keep an eye on him.roger

A botched shot resulting in a painfully wounded animal is especially hard for a young hunter. I'd recommend lots of practice with a .22 and then with whatever deer rifle you decide on. I like 257, 7mm08, 6.5x55 or .243 in roughly that order. A lever gun in 30-30 would work but is unnecessarily heavy. I bought my son a Model 7 when he was a small-framed 11 year old. The short brl. made for good balance with the wooden stock cut way down to fit him. As he grew I added spacers and a recoil pad until I replaced the wooden stock with an inexpensive full-sized composite stock. I used the gun myself for years with 100 gr. NP bullets as a mountain gun for whitetails and never needed more. And everything Stonecreek said.

A 6.5x55 or a .260 Rem...low recoil and plenty of terminal performance.

Thanks for all the great responses guys. I was unaware of some of the lesser known calibers as options. I am going to have to do some more research to see what some of these are all about. I really appreciate the advice and suggestions. The boy is a pretty crack shot with the open sighted .22 pump, and has fired my .17 from the bench a few times, so I am fairly confident with his ability to shoot. He learned gun safety from me and possibly more frightening, from my father, who is a pretty stern taskmaster, so he's doing well there also. I will have to see about finding someone around here to help me fit a gun to the kid. most of our shops are big sporting goods stores, where the high schoolers manning the desks know as much about that stuff as I do about opera.

Lots of good calibers mentioned here.
If your son likes shooting rimfires, and .223's etc. I'll bet you could go with a 7mm 08 or .308...You'll know when he shoots some of your other guns if he is going to handle it or not.
I started my son out with a 308, and a 20ga. He started shooting birds at 8, and deer at 9. I cut both guns down to fit him. Range sessions were 10 rds or less with the .308 even with reduced loads and 110 spire points. Thats a lot of gun for a little guy. Same thing with the 20 ga. He was'nt big on clays, but get him in the duck blind and a box of shells would disappear...lol!
This is off subject but I envy you guys with youngers. Man you have some fun to look fwd too. I remember my sons first deer. A little whitetail doe that would maybe go 60 lbs. He made a 200yd shot in a wheat field and dumped her in her tracks. He was thrilled. He handed me his rifle, and ran down there. I walked down ther, and he was standing over her with the biggest alligator tears you ever seen rolling down his face sobbing like crazy. He said...I shot a fawn!!! He could barely talk. I felt sooo bad. I remember thinking back that he may never want to hunt deer again. I set the guns down, and picked him up, and told him that it was ok to feel bad. Then my buddy who was close by got ther and saved the day. He said...What! Thats NO FAWN...Fawns have SPOTS! You would'nt believe how relieved my son was (and I was) It was almost immediately ok. We dug in there and got her gutted out and when we were almost to the truck we put it over his shoulders, and he flipped it in the back of the truck....Its been a while... He still hunt with that same gun.

quote:

Originally posted by holzauge:
I bought my son a Model 7 when he was a small-framed 11 year old. The short brl. made for good balance with the wooden stock cut way down to fit him. As he grew I added spacers and a recoil pad until I replaced the wooden stock with an inexpensive full-sized composite stock.

When you cut down a wood stock for a kid, always save the block of wood. As the kid grows, you can slab the block back on (in sections, if needed) to lengthen the stock as needed. In theory, you can always restock for an adult, but I like to keep at least one "kid's" gun around for upcoming shooters anyway.

Just last week, I shave OFF the wooden block that I had reattached to my son's .22 for my GRANDSON to shoot. You can't believe how fast generations cycle!

I think the 2 best guns for small frame shooter. My 9 year old nephew shoots a 308 styer prohunter just fine he is a big kid though. I think its hard to beat a orginal 7-08 in a model 7 with the 18.5 inch barrel. Or what my wife really likes to shoot. A CZ 527 in a 7.62x39.

Good thinking going on here. I suspect some of the differences are differences in hunting conditions. I started my son with a Handy in .357 Max although it was a couple of years before I let him shoot anything but .38 Specials in it. Loaded with .357 Max, it's plenty of gun for Virginia hunting.

If he ever gets around to providing me with a grandchild, I'll pass along my CZ 527 in 7.62x39. Both choices may be a bit limited for westerners, so I won't fault those of you who must hunt at longer distances.

quote:

Originally posted by spinedoc:
My son will be nine this fall, and we want to do some hunting together. Moatly it will be whitetails, but also the occasional trip to Texas for hogs.

Maybe a nice 6x45mm, drill the end of the stock for dowel pins so you can saw it off and put it back together later when he grows longer arms.

My daughter has been shooting her 22lr for about 3 years now, I have been puting some thought into her next step. What I am going to do is move up to the most popular 22 centerfire on the face of the planet, the 223. She dosn't whant to hunt without me near so we are going to do as much varmint hunting as possible. Woodchucks, Crows, Coyotes, and Rocks, beware for we are stalking you!! My hope is that she learns some hunting skills along with "trigger time". This is my thought on this next step in her becoming a hunter.
Thanks, Doug
P.S. Her first big rifle is an 6.5-284 on a Mauser action.

I have a 10 yr old son that tips the scales at 75 lbs. I got a hell of a deal on Rem 700 243. I figured he could use it for hunting later . He shoots the rifle great from the prone position but it is way to big for him to shoot standing.
I figure that he should be fine with it shooting ground squirrels but thats about it.
He did shoot a 300 Rem ultra mag yesterday from the prone position , It has muzzle break on it so there is really zero recoil. I give him credit for even getting behind the trigger though.

quote:

Originally posted by brixter:
He did shoot a 300 Rem ultra mag yesterday from the prone position , It has muzzle break on it so there is really zero recoil. I give him credit for even getting behind the trigger though.

Your muzzle break must work better than the ones I've tried .

Another vote for the 7.62x39. My son used it in an inexpensive CZ carbine- what it lacked in "power" he made up with accuracy and confidence. He took a stag, fallow and sika in NZ, all with one shot kills.

Thanks again for all the input. I think I am going to go with a Rossi Arms youth centerfire. Probably in .308 instead of .243, to hopefully allow some room to increase loads as he gets bigger. I like the idea of a single shot for safety, and he already has a Rossi .22/.410 combo he is comfortable with. Does anyone have any experience with these rifles. Thanks again for the help. I am more of an archer, and am unfamiliar with a lot of the rifle calibers, etc, although my dad is a rabid reloader, and very willing to help out with this.

http://www.rossiusa.com/products/gunselector-results.cfm?series=RYC

When my son was nine, he shot his first whitetail with my .270, while sitting on my lap. The next year, I had a custom 7X57 built for him on a Sprg.03-A3, with a McGowen #5 contour barrel. I always figured I could re-barrel the rifle and have the stock altered once he was grown...

Well, ne is now 22 and shoots a tang safety Ruger 77 in 7RM. But he still likes the Springfield from a stand; it is just a bit too heavy to pack on a "mountain" hunt.

All kids are different. You need a little range time with them first. You need to see what they can handle rather than deciding for them. My situation is different as I can build different rifles. My first grandson had a 270x39 Mini Mauser and we used 110 grns bullets. It was very accurate, the next had a 6BR in a very lightweight Remington that shot 85 grn bullets, and the one that just started this year has a 30BR with 125grn bullets. It was probably mentioned above that with a rifle that they aren't afraid of and is very accurate, it will be easy.
Butch