Are my expectations to high?
That is the question.

Bought a Savage 11GL .223 after reading about their terrific accuracy, and I did want to try the new Accu-trigger. I never could get it to shoot better than a 1 1/2 inch group with 3 shots ( only once) and most were far worse. I tried two factory loads and about 4 if I remember right handloads. Some grouped as bad as nearly 4 inches. I contacted Savage and they told me to send it in for a check.

I received the rifle back today with two 5 shot groups they ( factory shooter) had shot. One is 1.4 and one 1.2 inches. I am sorry but to me that is not good enough in todays world to satisfy me. I sold a Mini 14 That had shot under a inch at times to purchase this rifle. I was tired of chasing brass and wanted a tack driver, without a bull barrel

Now I face the dilemma of trying to work up loads to get better accuracy or glass bedding etc. I was hoping to use different bullet weights and have a accurate gun with what ever, just maybe need to adjust the scope for different grain bullets...Darn!!!!

This would be ok for a deer gun but I want to shoot Ground squirrels at 2 or 3 hundred yards.

Local gunsmith I bought it from advice is to sell it and buy another gun.
Am I asking too much from this gun? or is all the terrific accuracy I am reading BS or is this one a lemon?
I am kinda leaning toward a new Remington CDL .223, LH.

What do you guys think?

That sure doesn't sound good. I have only shot one Savage and that was a model 110 in 270 that I bedded and floated the barrel and added pillars in the stock. It shot 1/2" groups when I finished.

That sucks....

I think it's likely a lemon. I really hate spending extra time with something that didn't show promise within the first couple tries. The fact that Savage looked at it and did not find anything wrong seems to indicate it may not have a quick fix. I'm a 22-250 fan and have far more experiance with them. I'm told .223 is similar. If I ended up with a 22-250 that shot 1.5" on a good day it would be down the road. My moderate experiance with Savage has all been positive. Just like many say...cheap, kind of ugly, not the best finish, but really accurate. That being said everyone makes a lemon now and then I guess. I had a Rem 700 I bought nearly new that wouldn't cycle for beans. Did the run round trying to make it work. Finally sold it and got something else. I learned my lesson, from now on I do the last step first and save myself the frustration. Best of luck, hope it works out.

My experience with Savage rifles has been superb. I'd call them, talk to a supervisor and tell him of your expectations and how Savages have typically shot for others. I'd be willing to bet you'd get a re-barreled gun back or else a different one altogether.

I had a Savage Tactical model in 223 that shot 1/2" groups all day long right out of the box. With the right handloads I found several loads that would keep five shots around 3/8" if I did my part. What kind of loads are you using? My rifle prefered 60gr Hornady V-max bullets or Berger 60gr flat-base bullets and really liked Hodgdon 4895 or Varget powders.

I wouldn't call it a lemon.. I'd call it not a Typical Savage tho...

If you wanted the accutrigger...Savage barrels are easy to remove, once you break the factory over torqued barrel...

A lot of after market barrel makers can set you up with some good barrels.. even an ER Shaw for $150.00 is a good shooter....I'd do that, and just sell the factory barrel...

A CDL is a very nice rifle also...but with factory barrels, you are taking your chances anyway.. Savage is normally one of the more accurate ones..

I don't plan on buying any more new rifles... I am going to strictly rebarrel the ones I have...

you have the only Savage 223 I have ever heard of that didn't shoot well under an inch.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you have the only Savage 223 I have ever heard of that didn't shoot well under an inch.

Rich
DRSS

that's funny... usually that describes MY luck in life!

but no complaints about my 12BVSS...

I'd part with it unless you're into trying a new barrel. None of mine shoot that bad, even my big bore turns in smaller groups.

Don't let that one sour you though.

One of the best aspects of owning guns is your not married to them. If it won't perform, let it go. Get another one or something else. Married or not it's only money.

I've seen some of their Sporter hunting rifles that wouldn't shoot all that great but, I've heard nothing but good things on their Varmint set-ups. I'd do what Bobby suggested and call Savage again.

Also as Seafire mentioned, buy a ER Shaw or even a Shilen and sell the factory barrel.

Good Luck

Reloader

I'd get rid of it. Only if you plan on keeping it forever and ever would I put any money into it. After you've bedded it, pillared it, re-barreled it. etc it'll still be a Savage. Worth about $200 at the pawn shop.
By the time you've done all the tweeking that is suggested, you'll have enough money in it to have bought a higher grade rifle. Say, a Remington.

quote:

Worth about $200 at the pawn shop.

Not any of the pawn shops I've been in lately. Most of the Savage rifles run $300 to $350. I even saw a .30-40 Krag (sporterized w/receiver sights) for $699 (ouch). When I told the pawnshop manager that he was too high by a factor of 2+ he told me the rifle was an antique collector's item and that was a really good price. Still there--and has been for a year plus, and I expect will be there for years at that price.

with respect maybe its not the rifles fault, new guns sometime take a while to break in the barrel, how often do you clean, iv''e seen guys at the range get barrels sooooo hot you could brand cattle with them,and there new rifles, then they say hey? why won''t this xxx!!!! shoot,operator error i say,many people don''t even own a bore guide let alone a good one piece cleaning rod, shot a savage bull barrel 223 this last summer ,with their accutrigger boy that was just great what a product,their sporter barrels shoot great also,point is their s so many variables to consider, most time we are the weak link,sure hope you sort this one out,remington has had way over their share of lemons the last couple of years, don''t get me wrong i shoot and own both brands...regards jjmp

1.5" inches for a sporter configuration?

Can't say that that is great, but how long ago was it that the 1.5" guarantee MADE Weatherby?

Play with the crown, bed the thing into a good stock, bed the bases and double check the rings, and then decide if you keep the barrel, or not. For what, $150?, you can get a near match grade barrel from Lothar or Shaw.

But, do the home-accurizing first. When I did MY Savage 223, it went to .7" for five. The spare barrel I bought for it is still in the closet...... FWIW, Dutch.

Not sure which one the GL is, but my boss's son bought one of the combo sporters in .223 a year or so ago. He shot it with my loads worked up for my rifles and got just over an inch with a little coaching. I suggested we bed it, I took him through the process, trying to get another shooter hooked. When everything was hardened and trimmed out, he again shot it with the same loads. This time he was going under 3/4" easily. Now I know there are better groups in the rifle cause he's just learning from the bench. Long story shorter, I've had experience with 4 Savages. An inch would be a large group.

The factory stock I believe is pillar bedded. A skim bedding job and bedding the recoil lug is all that is needed. Make sure the barrel is floated and I wonder if your action screws are properly torqued now? Break in and clean barrel. Alot of pillar bedded rifles, factory, need to have a skim coat of bedding to keep the action from rocking upon firing. 1 1/2" is not typical Savage! Try more than one load.

That's pretty unimpressive accuracy for any modern rifle and especially disappointing for a Savage varmint rifle. I agree with more power on checking the action screw torque. That's easily done and I've seen it make a lot of difference on factory guns. Then I'd take 30378's advice or rebarreling or re-bedding. Life is short, your time is worth something and you aren't married to it. Be free! Sell it and buy another gun.

i have never shot factory ammo out of my savage. before you get rid of it, check the barrel twist rate. it may be you are using the wrong weight bullett. my savage has a 1 in 9 twist factory barel and my groups are .45 of an inch. that is using 50 grain nosler balistic tips and 2230 or 2015 powder. i am waiting for better weather to try 50 and 55 grain v-max bullets.i have spent alot of time to find these loads and still will be working this sumer to get my groups tighter. kep working at it,it just takes time to find the right bullet/powder/ primer combo. and be shure to keep all your cases at the same lenght. after i shot my winchester brass through my rifel, i started to neck size my brass. some times it takes having a few differant powders/prmers and bullets around untill you find the right combo. change one item at a time untill you get the right mixture

If someone has an inaccurate Savage, I would first check the screws holding the stock and action together.. mine worked itself loose in the first couple of hundred shots.. I tightened her down and havent' had the problem since...

My Savage Tactical .223 has never been very accurate either, 1" is an exception, most are 1.5", my Savage 22-250 does 1/2" or less all the time

I have a 110E in 30'06. It never shot that well, and I would be jealous of my friends Remington 30'06 because it out shot my gun.

I had it pillar bedded by SSS, and the channel opened and now it consistantly shoots .75".

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
If someone has an inaccurate Savage, I would first check the screws holding the stock and action together.. mine worked itself loose in the first couple of hundred shots.. I tightened her down and havent' had the problem since...

Seafire... you expereince matches mine. I have a Savage in .223 that has a synthetic stock, but does not have the pillar bedding. It is very sensitive to the amount of torque applied to the stock screws. Still, If I snug them up just right, she shoots pretty well.

My other Savage has the pillar bedding, and that one causes me no problems.

Thanks for all the replies. Rifle has been scoped for over a week but the weather has been so windy till today I didn't go shoot. It was snow flurries today but calm so I went up to the range and gave it a try.
First three shots were great 5/8" at most and two touching. I was very please but that was the end of that. Next two opened up the group to the size The factory had done.
I shot 5 more groups of five with two different loads. All were almost the same, from just over a inch to almost two, most in the 1 1/2 area just like That factory guys did. It was never allowed to get hot but I didn't let it completely cool either.
Shot a 308 some then just before leaving shot two with the 223 again and they were side by side at 1/2 inch so with a cool barrel it is OK but it's gonna open up shooting ground squirrels. I will try a slight pressure on the for-end of the stock and bed it but thats all I plan on with this gun. That will be good enough or I will sell it. I like Walnut stocks better anyway, grin.

All of my Savages shot better than that, after a little coxing. My .308 is a finicky eater, loves 150 gr SST's, hates 165 gr. The varmit .223 model 16 isn't so picky, but I have found that heavier bullets work a lot better.

remington33, you don't say what bullets you are shooting. You are in the same boat I am. The Savage has a reputation for accuracy well beyond any factory guarantee. Thus, if you get one and send it back, you will find that it probably meets their specs. but not what you were expecting based on its "street" reputation. Having said that, use normal load development techniques. In your case I would try several different bullet weights ie. try the 55 gr and the 69 grain. Depending on the twist, it may or may not shoot the 80 gr. bullets. It is not a magic gun, so, you either take the time to get it to shoot or you sell it. My 110FP is a magic gun, load development was a no brainer. It shoots 1/2 groups at 100 yards. My 112BVS on the other hand is not a magic gun. Load development is just that. But it seems to shot the 150's much better than the 168 or the 180's. Unusual, but...
Peter.

Remington 33...

what grain of bullets are you using with that rifle??? if they are fragile bullets, like a Hornady SPSX or similar... that may be your problem also...

The Savage has a one in 9 Twist... When I hand load the SPSX's at about 2700 fps or so, they seem to hold up.. bring the velocity up to 3300 fps, they vaporize right out of the barrel...

Poor groups could also be because you are pushing the envelope on the limits of the bullet design... pushed a little faster they would start keyholing...

Some one in 9 twists also won't shoot some of the smaller grain bullets, like 40s and 45s very well either...

If you are worried about Barrel heat tho, I can recommend loads with Blue Dot that will keep that barrel a lot cooler longer than factory speed loads...there are a lot of guys who have used them on here that can attest to that fact and their accuracy to boot...

Savages are not finicky, but the one in 9 twist they use, will stablize the longer 68, to 80 grain bullets, at the sacrifice of poor performance on the fragile varmint bullets in 22 cal, or the real light bullets depending on who makes them, and for what application... Ballistic Tips and V Maxes, and Blitz King present no problems...

H 335 also is a good powder on a poor accuracy 223 barrel...SR 4759 and H 380 are also...

You might try some, as Jim puts it, "Snot!"
Black powder solvent and Kroil at a 1:1 ratio.
I got a Model 14 7-08 that didn't seem quite right. Scrubbed it with lead/copper solvent and JB. Thought all was good. Tried some "Snot" and got a nasty patch first time out.
Did some on a brush and let it sit for a bit. The patch I pushed through looked like I wiped my...... (you get the point) Looked to be cosmoline (sp). Did the brush and "Snot" several more times before they came out clean.
Not sure how much better it shoots yet, had to go 'yote hunting

Seafire,

It is my belief (I'm using a somewhat faulty memory here!!) that my .223 has a 1:12 or 1:14 twist. But mine is a bit of an oddball in that it is built on a 112 (long) action, it has 110 stamped on the 26" semi heavey barrel and is a single shot. Mine was built prior to 1993.

It might be advisable for Remington33 to call the Savage Factory and ask them to check his serial number to identify the particulars about his rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by mike_elmer:
Seafire,

It is my belief (I'm using a somewhat faulty memory here!!) that my .223 has a 1:12 or 1:14 twist. But mine is a bit of an oddball in that it is built on a 112 (long) action, it has 110 stamped on the 26" semi heavey barrel and is a single shot. Mine was built prior to 1993.

It might be advisable for Remington33 to call the Savage Factory and ask them to check his serial number to identify the particulars about his rifle.

Definitely Mike!

That is a good idea (to check when it was made). I used to have a sporter .223, that was great until the barrel got hot. It was also a 110 action, and looks quite a bit different than the accutrigger models today.

My 12bvss-s .223 and my four Steven's were all MOA out of the box. The varmint rifle is still just great. I have noticed repeatability fall off to a small amount on the Stevens, tight screws and all.

The amount of copper these Stevens' barrels collect is substantial even with the BON-AMI treatment. Luckily There is a large supply of sheets ,T shirts and such from which to cut patches. roger

The gun is new and the twist should be 1:9 I only tried 55 grain bullets as that's what had loaded IMI FMJ and Remington PSP both with IMR 4198 so in a way it wasn't as fair a comparison as it could have been. Both did shoot the same. I have some 45 and 50 grain bullets on hand and different powder also and will try some others and for sure H335 as I keep reading how well it is working for guys with the .223. Maybe this weekend but it's my folks 61st anniversary, and I have B-day party for a nephew too. Soon though for sure. Thanks again guys.

Think maybe your choice in bullets may be the blame.I would try a BT,blitz king or one of the match bullets to see how accurate your rifle is then play with those bullets you have.I have a savage 10fp in 223 and have shot a bunch of both the bullets you mentioned,they shoot but haven't gotten any small groups with them.The remington 55 gr HP shoots a little better than the psp in my savage and my buddies savage.Mine really likes the 40 and 55 gr BT with benchmark and the 69 gr match with R-15.It has the 1:9 twist also.

24.5 grains of 2230 or 24 grains of 2015 with a 50 grain nosler ballistic tip shoot .45 out of my savage. my savage likes powder charges in the middel of the scale. try these 2 loadings and h335. my savage dosent shot well with any fmj and i have tried imi,winchester as well as a few others. the 55 grain remington holow point didnt shoot well out of mine as well, i wish it did since they are so cheap to buy. if you dont have a stony point oal gauge, get one.my savag likes the bullett close to the rifeling. you may need to seat the bulletts out farther as well. bullett jump will play a critical factor for accuracy

Try 4895 and Bl C-2 with Sierra's Match kings or bench rest 53 - 68 grain projectiles . Load middle of the road # 10 rounds each . then 10 more higher velocity , and 10 lower velocity loads . See where you are ( Make sure you've got a steady rest ) fire a fouler then 1 five shot group timed about 45 seconds apart for each shot !. Now repeat after 7 minute barrel rest . See which one the upper or lower velocity load seems to be better ?. If you see no significant improvement either way , I would have a heart too heart with Savage !.
I've bought Two Savages in the past year not in .223 but in .308 and they're both sub minute of angle out of the box with Black hills Ammo . Hand loads I'm just about kissing all holes and I just started building loads for them .

How many shots have you put through yours ?. Did you condition the bore prior to shooting and how did you go about it ?. What and how are you cleaning it with ?. Adjust Scope ??. I don't recommend that !. Leave the scope alone unless it's broken or bad !. Different weights as well as charges will impact differently ( that's ok ) First see if it's the gun or the loads . If it's the gun WELL that heart too heart I mentioned earlier is in order . If it's the loads that can be fixed as well as the Scope . First things first ...