Does anyone know if Winchester made the M-70 in 223 Rem in a controlled round feed sporter weight rifle? 6.5-7.5 lbs? Not interested in a WSSM or .22-250

Nyrifleman: It is my understanding that they did in fact make a few M-70 Rifles with the CRF feature in caliber 223 Remington. My old friend and renowned custom Gunsmith Dan Cowen bought one about 8 years ago on the used market! He has owned some significantly rare and wonderful Rifles in his time but you should have seen his face when he found this one! He lit up like a Christmas tree! He had specific plans for the Rifle's action and I forget what they were.
He may have a lead for you or more information if you care to inquire of him in person at 1-425-227-9280. He is at this shop number Wednesdays through Saturdays 9 to 5ish (Pacific Time Zone). Hope this helps.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

If you are in the market for a new CRF rifle in .223, check out the CZ 527. It's a real mini mauser with real CRF. Unless you have your heart set on the Winchester, that is.

I don't know about the win 70, seems like a waste of an action cause its made to fit such larger rounds, I have a couple CZ 527s that are CRF and they are my favorite rifles

VG, you need a CZ, heck if you don't like it you could always trade it off.

Find a used Interarms Mini Mauser, or look at the new Charles Daly, the current importer.

I have one of the older Interarms, it shoots great.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Find a used Interarms Mini Mauser, or look at the new Charles Daly, the current importer.

IIRC, the CD Mini Mauser is not a CRF.

Cummins cowboy: I do so like everything about the CZ line! Looks, feel, balance, performance, styling, choices etc! Except for that raggedy assed clip hanging down there - I would own a CZ or two!
If it were not for that I would have CZ's in calibers like 17 HMR, 22 Magnum and maybe even a good old 22 LR!
I have lots of friends that stand the indignity of that clip hanging down and they seem to be universally happy with them!
My good friend out in Washington owns a high volume Gunshop and he has been endorsing the CZ line since day one! He ALWAYS drags out a new Model of CZ when I get out to the coast and regales me with its virtues! I have been tempted repeatedly - believe me!
I am waiting for a single shot rimfire CZ in Varmint weight and I may jump on that! My diminutive little Gun/pawn shop here in Dillon, Montana even sells a lot of the CZ's to the locals and the ranch hands! Again a very high satisfaction rate is evident!
The CZ's are very popular and seldom are seen on the secondary (used) gun market!
People are simply happy with them and keep them!
Yep I need the push over the edge of the CZ cliff so to speak. A single shot is my best hope there.
Thanks for the "kick in the butt" so to speak!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Aside from being an unabashed Winchester fan(atic?), my problem with the CZ is the protruding magazine. Damn that's ugly.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Except for that raggedy assed clip hanging down there - I would own a CZ or two!

quote:

Originally posted by nyrifleman:
my problem with the CZ is the protruding magazine. Damn that's ugly.

This Guy does the above mods on the 527 to make the mag more flush. Costs is $65.

there you go varmint guy, you officially have NO excuse, just look at the pic that waterfowler posted. I will also admit that I was a little hesitant about the unique features of the CZ. I have found the magazine to be a non issue. I have carried my CZ vamint with clip inserted and put the sling over my head so the rifle hung diagonally on my back, I proceeded to fly down rough trails on my 4 wheeler. The clip caused no problems. When shooting from the bench most people single load. So in that case I just throw a round in the action the extractor snaps over the case as it goes in and the gun is loaded without fan fare. There is simply no other rifle that performs like a CZ. The action is downsized so you are saving at least 1" over a remmy or ruger action, also the savings in weight is huge. Heck my CZ 223 varmint is the same weight and length as my 22" remmy 700 .270 sporter.

So there you go VG I will be waiting for your review of your new CZ 527 varmint in caliber 204 as soon as you get it to the range

HP, this a picture of a Mini action, and is from the CD website. So how can a mauser action not be a CRF?



Hog Killer

Hog Killer, read this and you be the judge:

quote:

All the finest features of the time tested Mauser 98 Bolt Action are incorporated and refined in the full-size actions. A full-length claw extractor provides controlled feeding plus positive extraction for excellent reliability, and dual opposed forward locking lugs provide time-tested strength and safety. Refinements to the action include a two position positive sliding safety located on the side of the receiver and an adjustable trigger with a serrated blade face.

The Mini-Mauser actions employ a Sako-style extractor with a full-length bolt guide, while the remaining features match those of their full-size counterparts.

Source: Charles Daly actions and barrelled actions

That which looks like an external Mauser extractor is just a bolt guide. Sako-style extractors are not, the last time I looked, CRF.

Sorry..........

OK

Hog Killer

Just curious, what benefit is there to a controlled round feed .223?

Is is so the rifle doesn't jam on the second shot when a wounded prairie dog or groundhog charges you?


Sorry, had to ask......

GLC you have obviously never been charged by a groundhog hell bent on evening the score. Seriously-all my rifles are CRF M-70 Winchesters. I want one to restock to feel like the others as a practice rifle. Anyone got one for sale?

GLC,
As big a fan as I am on CRF for a DGR, I also was wondering if it was of any benifit to a varmint or target rifle, I don't think so, but to each his own..

NRA Conventional Highpower has two rapid fire stages: standing to sitting or kneeling @ 200 yards and standing to prone at 300 yards. On both stages the shooter is standing at the ready and as the targets are exposed from the pits, they assume the shooting position and fire ten shots in 60 seconds (200 yds) or 70 seconds (300 yds.).

In those two stages, a CRF bolt action rifle minimizes the opportunities for shooter-induced screw ups.

Not all rifle target sports are like benchrest.

quote:

Originally posted by GLC:
Just curious, what benefit is there to a controlled round feed .223?

Is is so the rifle doesn't jam on the second shot when a wounded prairie dog or groundhog charges you?


Sorry, had to ask......

Yeah, you laugh now but wait until one actually charges you!

True story - I wounded a ground squirrel on a nice summer day in 1977 in a field in Utah just off of US 89, about 5 miles south of Bear Lake. Little sucker came right at me! I was using a Ruger 10-22 CRPF, magazine fed, recoil operated shoulder weapon and when I aimed at him for the coop dee grass, it went CLICK - out of ammo. CRF did not help in that situation.

So I butt stroked the little beggar as he tried to attack my foot, ending his charge right then and there. Okay, maybe he was just confused and was trying to run between my feet, but when faced with an angry, wounded beast like that I wasn't going to wait and ask him his intentions.

see are ef - shmee are ef. Give me a good piece of hardwood and an aluminum buttplate and I ain't afeared of nuthin'!

The Ruger 10/22 is not a push feed. Its a control round feed. Just check.......I'll wait.......dum dee dee dum dum.......See? The rim of the cartridge slides under the extractor as it leaves the clip/magazine, just like on a Mauser. You can eject the shell without chambering a round due to it being a "CRF". In fact ALL the .22 that I know of are CRF due to them being rimfire. Don't want the extractor smashing the rim and causeing a slam fire.....hehehe. FNMauser

Hmm, by gosh, I think you're right.

Although it looks more like the hybrid controlled round push feed activity of the Winchester's and Savages.

Post changed to reflect the compromise.

Back to being less facetious, I have a Kimber of Oregon Model 84 .223 that is a true CRF .223 rifle. Looks cool but as Ray has already noted, I don't think that adds much to the actual utility of the rifle given the intended game.

However, it has a CHECKERED STEEL BUTTPLATE, giving it supreme butt smashing abilities.

Jim, how do you like that Kimber 84? I've considered buying one and having it restocked. I've owned Model 89s before, but never an 84. Impressions?

Impressions: Overall a very nice rifle. Not perfect, but nice. I had previously purchased a Model 82 .22 and the wood was beautiful, inletting, fit and finish was excellent, functioning was smooth and it was accurate as can be.

The Model 84's wood was a bit plainer but the inletting and checkering and overall attention to detail was just as good. The bolt travel was a bit rough, there seems to be a couple of bumps or something in the travel, but never having worked with any other 84's I don't know if that is normal. The only real fly in the ointment is that the magazine will hold five rounds but if you load five and close the bolt over the fifth round, then work it quickly the top round will pop out of the magazine prematurely. If you load five, then close the bolt and feed the first one into the chamber and then work the action normally it all works perfectly. I used to load 5 then load the chamber as well, and when ejecting that first round that top round would almost always pop up. Now I just load five and then chamber the top round to leave 4 in the magazine and it never bobbles.

The trigger is excellent - very crisp and very little overtravel. I have mine adjusted down to 22 ounces. Very light, but that's the way I wanted it.

The accuracy is superb. This is a light rifle with a rounded forend and is not the easiest thing to shoot off of sandbags but I can count on it to put several loads into 3/4" for five shots. It will go into the low .5's or even shade 1/2" once in a while, but again it is very light and you have to really pay attention to bench technique and hold your tongue just right.

Overall I am very pleased with it. I was disappoiinted in that fifth round problem, but it is so doggone accurate and such a joy to carry and shoot that I can overlook that one small blemish.

I have found this fascination with little to no overtravel in trigger very curious.

Overtravel allows you to follow up with a much reduced chance that the trigger's stop will disturb the aim.

Same goes for two stage triggers. Once one has tasted a finely adjusted two-stage, it's hard to go back to a single stage, no matter how good it may be.

Interesting, I've never heard of wanting more overtravel, but the way you explain it I can see how leaving it free to move after the break would be beneficial. Always liked as little overtravel as possible so the trigger barely moves. In fact my ideal trigger would not perceptibly move at all which is how I have my two Jewells set up. In a hunting rifle, epecially a Winchester, you need some movement to ensure reliability.

Not saying one is right or one is wrong, just different strokes for different folks, I guess.

My .223 is an old Kimber of ORegon M84 action with a Krieger barrel and as stock I made from a blank. It shoots very well. I bought the action for anothe rproject and then decided not to do it, so I screwed a .223 barrel in it. There is no reason to have a CRF .223, and for pure accuracy, I say you would not want one. But I had the action and it made a nice trim .223 sporter that shoots very well

Kimber M84 .223 pics

You will find competatice shooters who hate over travel stops for the above reason. THe jar from the trigger bottoming out is disruptive to unltimate accuracy. But it does not matter on a hunting rifle

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in Idaho:
Interesting, I've never heard of wanting more overtravel, but the way you explain it I can see how leaving it free to move after the break would be beneficial. Always liked as little overtravel as possible so the trigger barely moves. In fact my ideal trigger would not perceptibly move at all which is how I have my two Jewells set up. In a hunting rifle, epecially a Winchester, you need some movement to ensure reliability.

Not saying one is right or one is wrong, just different strokes for different folks, I guess.

It's hard to argue about anything related to rifle accuracy with David Tubb, 13 time national Highpower Rifle Champion, and almost as many times National Silhouette Rifle Champion.

I learned about the benefits of more overtravel from reading his books, and he is not alone in that opinion.

Oh, geez, another anal retentive with control issues that desperately has to prove I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

Here, I'll help you - EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS RIGHT AND ANYTHING ANYBODY ELSE DOES THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU AND THE BOOKS YOU READ IS TOTALLY WRONG. There, now you are happy.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in Idaho:
Oh, geez, another anal retentive with control issues that desperately has to prove I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

Here, I'll help you - EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS RIGHT AND ANYTHING ANYBODY ELSE DOES THAT DISAGREES WITH YOU AND THE BOOKS YOU READ IS TOTALLY WRONG. There, now you are happy.

I'm not trying to win an argument or prove that I am right.

I was merely pointing out where I found the idea that lots of overtravel in a trigger might be a good thing. I also listed the author's qualifications to offer such opinion in case he is unfamiliar.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, guess I've seen too many attempts at "one upsmanship" on these forums and thought this was one of those.

Please accept my apology for overreacting.

What little smiley face do you use to offer a handshake and a "let's forget about it"?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in Idaho:
Please accept my apology for overreacting.

What little smiley face do you use to offer a handshake and a "let's forget about it"?

Deal.