The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers .223 WSSM vs. 22-250 RemingtonGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I have been looking at both the .223 WSSM and the 22-250 data for awhile, and it seems that the .223 WSSM dosn't offer that great of an improvement in performance over the 22-250. What was the thinking behind introducing a new round when a proven round already exists? Anyone else find this odd? My guess is they were just bored. Maybe I just can't see the logic behind the new round. What do you guys think about it? | ||
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With all the 22-250 Remingtons sold in the last fourty years Winchester probably decided to get in on some of that cash with a round of their own.I can't believe that particular short fat case is not gonna create feeding problems. I'll keep my 22-250 until the WSSM has been around for fourty years.............. | |||
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Hello, I kind of believe like you guys, what's the big deal about the "short magnum, short, etc. etc." I believe this whole short cartridge idea is kind of like having gas-it to will pass!! Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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The .223 WSSM would seem pretty non-sensical, alright. It requires the same length action as the .22-250, but the action has to be substantially modified in order to fit and feed, and the magazine capacity is cut by two rounds (at least). The brass is more expensive, and you can't pick up factory loads for it at the convenience store in Podunk, Oklahoma. Of course, good sense and marketing are almost mutally exclusive in 21st Century America. Where else can you save Social Security by destoying it? | |||
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Handloading the 22-250 meets or exceeds the 223 WSM. So if you reload why bother with the 223 WSM?  | |||
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I've been shooting a 22br for about 20yrs now and had the 223wssm case come out instead of the br case then I would of done it. Don't own a 22-250. I happen to be a fan of the short fat case. Let's not forget the short fat 6ppc. Well good luck. VFW | |||
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quote: In the real world I think the "logic behind the new round" is new sales in firearms and components. The only real advantage I see to the short mags is that they can be chambered on a short action, resulting in a somewhat lighter and compact rifle. | |||
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Tom your most certainly right about short fat cases, I have a 6MM BR in a 40X that's the most consistently accurate rifle I've ever owned. Even with that in mind don't you think there has to be a point of diminishing returns as the capicity gets larger? To me the answer to the original question on some level at least has to be as simple as just to sell more rifles. If a guy took the data for a max load using a 55 grain V-Max in the .22BR, the .22-250 as well as the .223WSM and fed em all into a ballistics program I can't imagine the differences being enough to matter too much on a p-dog town. In fact when you factor powder used for velocity gained as opposed heat generated and wear and tear on high dollar equipment for my money your .22BR might well be the winner. I shoot way to many small caliber wildcats to offer the theory that a particular round has to make sense to have value or be of interest, but to me at least the .223WSM is a bit too much for a lot to little. Actually I have no business saying that cause I've yet to shoot one, I should say instead that my perception of that much powder going down the tube for the velocities I've read the WSM achieves doen't seem to compute as far as I see it. Listen to me talk, pointing fingers at the .223WSM when I've got a .20BR on order. Interesting topic. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Montdoug, When I had the 22br build didn't have the net so I kind of looked at the 22-250 case figured with the 22br could get better velocity use less powder and get better groups so thats how I spend my money. Wasn't looking at a factory rifle to buy. My 6br and 6brshortentalldog were build before Rem came out with the 40x in 6br and 22br and the only cases out was 7br brass. Only wish Rem would of come out with a repeater in the 22 and 6br then made a short run of Model 7 out of the custom shop in a 7br magazine fed. I try not get into comparing calibers now just too much fun having something build then seeing if it shoots as good as you planned. Last years project were a 300wsm,22-250AI and 6mmremAI this years project are 300mag (just got from the gunsmith) 284 or 6.5x284 (haven't decided which one yet) and 243AI. I've kind of put the varmit calibers on the back burner for awhile. I've kind of think about the 25 Souper or 25wssm and the 20cal on the 223AI case. Plese keep us informed on the 20br. VFW | |||
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I like the 22/250 and infact I like most of the stadard rounds we have a lot of these wsm's and the like just copy ballistics of all ready available rounds !!  | |||
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I believe the 223 WSSM's have fast twist barrels so are better able to shoot heavy bullets than factory barreled 22-250's. It also does have more capacity so apples to apples it will outdo the 22-250 handloaded or otherwise. | |||
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FVA has it right. The 223WSSM has a standard 10 twist barrel, the 22/250 a 14 twist. They should have gone with a 9twist. I'd love to see the spaghetti noodle logic they used to come up with the "10". Nevertheless, the 10 twist makes the WSSM capable of stabilizing the heavier for caliber bullets, up to the 75 Amax. I was just copying my load notes, and I shot some 3400 fps 75 gr. Amaxes (rl22, slow lot), and the brass sooted well past the shoulder. Now, tell me the 22/250 will do that..... The WSSM is in my opinion, a niche cartridge for very long range varminting, with a marginal capacity for small big game. Although I have some 53 gr. XLC's loaded at 3,800 fps looking for a mulie to test it on. Maybe next year. FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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I don't own a .223 WSSM but I've had a Swift and a .22/250 . Filled to the bottom of the neck the .223 WSSM holds 52.5 gns of water , the Swift 44.6 gns and the .22/250 41.5 gns .Anyone who thinks a .22/250 can match the velocity of either of the other two is only kidding those who don't know better . Sure you can load a 50 grainer to 4000 FPS + in a .22/250 if you full length size every time , trim after about every third load and throw your brass away after about five loads . With the other two you won't need to do that !  The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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There is nothing wrong with the 223 WSSM, but there is a lot of things right. If you want a flat shooting 224 cal for coyotes or long shots on prarie dogs, the 223 WSSM is great. My barrel will last longer than 22/250 barrels because it is chrome lined. It is more expensive to shoot than a 223 Rem, but that is the price of performance. That is why I also own a 223 Rem, which I like a lot. Is is better than a 22/250? I depends on your definition of best. Reduced capacity? So, after four shots all your are doing is toasting your barrel. Oh, 53gr TSX through and through on my mulie buck this year at 175 lazered yards. Aaron | |||
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quote: As “Bushchook†said “Filled to the bottom of the neck the .223 WSSM holds 52.5 gns of water , the Swift 44.6 gns and the .22/250 41.5 gns .†the .22-250 can’t match the velocity of the .223 WSSM. Neither can the old Swift. And on top of this the case on the WSSM is thicker where it counts. The RUMORS(and that is all they are) about the WSSM cartridges(.223, .243 and .25) having feeding problems is just that RUMORS. I have never had a problem and neither has any of the others(15 total) I know that own them. I too have owned a .22-250 and still have my .220 Swift and none will shoot with my WSSM. Lawdog  | |||
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Just purchased win.mod.70 .223wssm looking for load data. Have 223,22-250,22-6mm imp,19-223calhoon. I just love little cal. and long range groundhogs. 223WSSM has 1-10 twist..Maybe Dutch or AaroninUtah might share. | |||
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Just because a 223 WSSM holds 52 grains of H20 versus only 44 by the Swift and 41 for the 22/250, doesn't mean that the velocity potential of the WSSM is proportional. Even Ackley listed that the capacity of the 22 caliber bore, started into overbore capacity at the 220 Swift. Rounds like the 22/284 have shown some increased velocity over the 220Swift, but their barrel life has also shown a dramatic decrease. You can kill one of those barrels in 500 to 750 rounds. I can also shoot that many rounds on a good day out shooting sage rats, or 500 on prairie dogs. Can't speak for the guy in Australia on what he has to shoot at, equal to our sage rats or prairie dogs. To me the 223 WSSM is a novelty. If I had that much testosterone, and machoism to burn, I'd just go with a 22/284 or a 22/06 or even 22/243 Middlestead. Those cases on the WSSM just look plain stupid. P.T. Barnum must have designed the WSSM line in my humbler opinion. If I want to burn out a barrel, I'd rather burn it out shooting 8000-10,000 223 rounds or 5000 22/250 rounds instead of 750 WSSM rounds. The only two guys you are impressing with the WSSM are the guys who sell guns and the guys who rebarrel guns. They will consider you a good customer. You will also be popular with the guy who sells powder. Cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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Seafire , I'm not about to buy a .223WSSM . They don't excite me that much either . You're right that velocity increase won't be proportional to the difference in case capacity from .22/250 to .223 WSSM . I agree with your points on barrel life etc. I was just pointing out that there is no way you can load a .22/250 to match the .223 WSSM in terms of velocity . IMHO the only .22/250 to own is the Ackley version . The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Seafire, usually you make good sense, but in this case, you are nutz. Irrational fear of new cartridges. Sorry to break it to you. Seek help.  You would take a wildcat over a factory cartridge with the same capacity? You would go through the time, expense, barrel wear, and assorted PITA of case forming and fireforming to own a 22/243 over a WSSM? You wouldn't own a WSSM with 52 grains capacity (mine actually measures 55 to the top of the neck), but you would own an 22/06 which has 10 more grains of capacity? HUH? You are right when you say that Ackley stated the Swift was over bore. You forget that the slowest powder available to him was 4831. Now, we have about 15 powders slower than that. The WSSM approaches on over bore with powders such as RL25, Magnum and Magpro. 7828 is a little slow with heavy bullets. The design simply works. With the BR-2 primer and Magnum, I have shot groups with ES readings as low as 5 (5 shot groups). Half MOA is easy to achieve, even with my sporter configuration. PJF, I don't know what your elevation is, but you MAY be able to shoot the 75 Vmax. If not, the 69MK should work fine. Try a mild primer (br2 is my current standard) and a slower powder than you would otherwise expect (RL22 is a little fast with 75 gr. Vmaxes, so is 7828. Both should be about right for the 69 grainers, though). Magnum, Magpro, that class of burn rate for the 75's. I annealed my cases, and 3400 fps does not yet expand the necks...... HTH, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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I perdict the the entire WSSM line will go the way of the coco bird. They just don't really offer anything that excites anyone. If you are looking for a flat shooting varmit round, look at the ballistics the 204 ruger offers shooting 32 grain bullets. It shoots twice as flat as a 223 with almost as much energy as a 223 shooting 50grainers and with less wind drift to boot. at 400 yards my 223 shooting a 50grainer needs 17" of elevation the 204 only needs 7". sited 1.5" high at 100 the 204 is dead on clear out past 300. In the realm of rifle cartridges this is magic brother in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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Bushchook: I can reach 223 WSSM velocities with a 22/250! Case life might be a little short, and they would not be loads that I would recommend to others necessarily. I have tested RL 7 with a 40 grain ballistic tip to 4750 fps. It did not pop primers but it did loosen the primer pocket that it went in sloppy on the next reload! But it was accurate. It was also real flat shooting out to 500 yds! But then, you Aussie guys like to live on the wild side and yet are practical. That is why I love you guys so dam much. Cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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Yeah , well despite all of catterwailing against a big .22 case , the .223 WSSM does fill a niche in the factory lineup . The other WSSM s do not . As Dutch was saying , the .22 WSSM can push the heavyweight high b.c. .22 bullets to very high speeds safely ; for extreme range varminting . The 22/250 and Swift cannot , as proven by the primer popping loads posted here . Also , the factory 250 and Swift barrels do not have the proper twist for that job . Whether this is a big enough niche to be commercially successful remains to be seen , but it is a useful niche nontheless , despite some of you naysayers..... | |||
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A mate of mine got the 223 WSSM in the Coyote. It was not shot with the factory barrel as a match grade barrel went straight ont it of Rem Varmint contour. It would not feed the second cartridge but with some bending of the spring and gluing the spring into a position on the floor plate is is feeding. The action does not work as CRF all the time especially if worked slowly. The brass appears to be both thick and soft and is vert tight to chamber after one shot. We were under the impression that the case was the size of a 6mm Rem Improved but it is more like the 243. For a fast 22 I would prefer a 22/243 or a 22/06 and neck down 25/06s. As a side note, this was from the first batch of 223 WSSMs that came to Australia. Mike | |||
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I would prefer something on the order of the .220 Howell myself , but the factories have seen fit to give us the WSSM , and it does have the powder capacity to do the job. And I'm not surprised the squatty things might not feed all that well , but imperfect feeding probably won't be a killer on that class of cartridge... | |||
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Sd, you know, I think that of the three, the 25WSSM makes by far the most sense. Absolutely great beginner deer cartridge (light weight, limited recoil). I would have preferred that they saw fit to sell us a 250 Savage again for that purpose, but in the scheme of things the 25WSSM is a pretty decent replacement. JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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NOw Dutch, you are the one that is making SENSE! I agree who heartedly with you. The only one I see something worth looking at is the 25 WSSM. However, I'd easily be happy with a 250 Savage instead of the WSSM. Of course the 25/284 would be my choice over the WSSM in 25 cal also. Cheers seafire | |||
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The 25/284 gets to be a pretty hot cartridge. That would be, what, 62 grains of water? Lots of gas through a quarter inch hole. If I had my druthers, I'd take the 250AI. Introducing the 250AI as a commercial cartridge would have stopped a lot of discussions..... Can't imagine a better power/shootability balance for deer worldwide. A 100 gr. bullet at 3000 fps. What is not to like? JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Well Dutch, if you like a 100 grain bullet in a short action, if you can live with expanding the bore by 7/1000ths, to a 264 bore...... The good old Remington 260 is setting there, with the capability of pushing a 100 grain Ballistic Tip or Partition to a nice round 3350fps, with 43.5 grains of IMR 4064. That is why my gun safe has three of them residing in there. One Rem VLS and two Ruger 77 Mark 2s. It is a flat shooting load and is capable of doing a lot of damage on impact, even at 300 yds, yet recoil is light enough at 300 yds, I have watched several deer drop right in the scope never loosing sight picture. Cheers and Good shooting seafire | |||
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seafire, kudos!!! My daughter has yet to see a deer take a step after she pulls the trigger on her .260!!! First one was 271 yards, second was 197 yards and the "Daddy called one in for her to 27 Yards this year!!!.....all with 100 grain Nosler BT's!(chose the bullet for the reduced recoil and a little woman!!!!) By the way the smallest of the deer was a 17" 8 pointer which was her first!!! Had to talk her out of shooting him at 400!!!! He did come closer just like I told her he would!!! Shot placement has a lot to do with her success!!! Wish I could find one of those darn .260 VLS's you speak of!!!! I'm thinking about getting a barrel and making a switch barrel .260 for the SENDERO 300SAUM!! GHD Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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seafireB17G,
Sure you can but I can load my .223 WSSM to levels you can’t reach safely. cummins cowboy,
Not with the way they are selling and the way they perform they won't disappear. You may not like them but they are here to stay. Lawdog  | |||
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Law Dog, You are probably right, you can load the 223 WSSM to levels that the 22/250 can't reach safely. However, it still is a fact, YOUR cartridge still looks dumb! Mine may be slower, but it has classic-ness to it, and a good pedigree. It has been getting the job done a long time and will continue to do so. Like the old Chevy truck commercial, Don't you buy no ugly truck... well I am not going to hunt with no ugly cartridge, regardless if I do love Winchesters stuff. The WSSMs are the Edsel of cartridges. But I'd be happy to share a campfire or a varmint field with you and your WSSM any day. I'll have the sleak sexy cartridge and you will have the fat ugly girl that shoots fast. I like my cartridges the way I like my women.... they need to "put out" but I want them to be sexy and attractive and appealing..... not Fat, Ugly and " putting out alot". Quantity is no substitute for quality. The WSSMS are like the Rosie O'Donnells of the cartridge world. Cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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Mike375 , Your mate should have taken his Coyote back and banged it up Winchester Australia's bum I reckon . No way I'd tolerate a new rifle that wouldn't feed PERFECTLY .Also had problems with extraction of the WSSM's I've read . I can't believe that the U.S. gun makers get away with some of the crap that they sell to their customers . Every rifle should be should be test fired at the factory I reckon . If it cost another $50 per gun to stop the rubbish getting out of the factory gate it would be worth it . I've got a Rem. 700 VSSF and a model 70 featherweight WSM . Quality control has been RS on both .I'm done with those 2 U.S. manufacturers until they get their act together . No doubt they make some good guns but when you fork out your hard-earned dollar you shouldn't be paying for a "dog" that might cost $ hundreds more to make into what you expected in the first place . The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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seafire,  What you say in a way is true but it has been said before. When the .300 Weatherby first came out is one time. The .300 H&H was classy and the .300 Weatherby looked funny. Now the Weatherby is classy too. Who knows, maybe 50 years down the road that will be saying the same thing about WSSM's.  You know I'm not saying the .22-250 isn't a great cartridge because it is. In my case I had traded off my .22-250 a number of years ago for a shotgun(Browning A5 20 ga.) and I retired my .224 Weatherby so I was in the market for another high velocity .22 centerfire(my .220 Swift is worth more in the safe than in the field). I went over the data and reports for the .223 WSSM and decided why not give one a try. So far it does exactly what the reports said it would do. If a hunter/shooter is in the market for a factory high velocity .22 centerfire then they would do well to give the "NEW KING" of factory loaded .22 centerfires a try. Lawdog  | |||
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Law Dog: In the end they all get the same job done. I was shooting sage rats this weekend, and truth be known in the real world, There is not a whole lot of difference in a sage rat hit with a 22/250 shooting a Speer 52 grain HP at 3600 fps, and a sage rat hit with a 223 shooting a 55 grain SPSX Hornady. Both looked like they had swallowed a grenade, been ran thru a blender and dumped back all over the field in a 10 yd radius. That was after the the 4 to 5 foot summersault thru the air! So even if I think the WSSMs are dumb, it is not like I can say seafire's life has be void of anything dumb, yet still got he job done. Whatever works and they all work in the long run. Cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers .223 WSSM vs. 22-250 Remington
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