I have had a hard time getting a lovely Mossberg Model 800BM to shoot well at all. Barely under two inches at 100 yards with a Swarovski scope! Info is hard to find, but I believe the twist rate is 1 in 10, and the little Mannlicher carbine has a 20 inch barrel. I have shot 100's down to 85 grain bullets including ballistic tips, SST's, TSX's, etc. Mixed powders as well.

With the shorter barrel do you think a 65-70 grain bullet would do better? Deer hunting is the goal. Just kind of searching for help here....

I haven't loaded for the 243 since WW 785 was dropped from their line up. I do have one load that was worked up and was fairly accurate in my gun but it is very close to the maximum load. 85 grain Sierra bullet over 38 grains of IMR 4064. It gave just over 2900 fps from the 24" barrel. The overall length was 2.63".

I rarely use loads that close to maximum so it was dropped in favor of loads with more margin from the maximum.

Befus, I literally beat my brains out on the loading bench trying to get a short-barreled Remington Model 7 in 243 to shoot accurately. And by accurately, I like for three shots to clover leaf at 100. To say this rifle wouldn't do that is an understatement; the best I EVER got with 100-grain Speer GS was roughly 1.5 MOA, and that just doesn't do it for me...

I can only suggest you try some of the faster burning powders, as you don't have enough barrel to make use of the slower burners. I may be wrong, but I think part of my problem may have been the still-expanding gas column upsetting the bullet as it left the barrel.

I think I would try some powders like IMR 4895, IMR 3031, etc., and see how they act. I can tell you from experience that IMR 4350, IMR 4831, and the now discontinued AA 3100 did not work for me...

Good luck!

Thanks Paul and Doubless- I guess I just wondered what effect the shorter barrel might mean as far as stabilization was concerned. My thoughts were that with a 1-10 twist rate the heavier bullets just didn't stabilize in the shorter barrel. Obviously I would also not get the velocity published in load data compiled using 24 inch barrels. I have had exactly your experience Doub, an inch and a half at 100 (or more); just not what I look for in a small caliber rifle. 4831sc, Varget, and 4350 all failed to deliver out of this rifle. I will order some lighter bullets since the 85 TSX's didn't perform real well using Varget. For whitetail I hate to go much lighter, but I'll pony up and buy some 65-70's and see. Unfortunately, right now finding any powder at all is problematic, as I am sure you know.

I would stay with 80grains or more, maybe the 80gn TTSX. the suggestion of 4895, maybe H4895 sounds promising for the short barrel.

I have loaded for two different 243's. Both shot the same loads under one inch at 100 yards.

I used the Sierra 100gr Spitzer, and the Nosler 95gr Partition.

The load was 40 gr of IMR 4350 with either bullet for Texas, and when the wife hunted with one of the 243's in Colorado or Wyoming I used 42gr of IMR 4350.

The rifles were a Ruger No1-A and a Remington Model 7, it has an 18" barrel. The Model 7 was scary accurate, even at 300 yards with any one of those bullets over either powder charge.

I loaded for a Win M70 Lightweight Carbine 20" barrel in .243 and found it to be accurate and deadly with 41 grains IMR 4350 and 100 grain Sierra pro hunters.
My son has a .243 now that is shooting 90 grain Speers with 41.5 grain 4350 and 85 grain Sierra HPBT's 43 grains 4350 both pin point accuracy.
you might play with your seating depth of the most accurate load you've shot, sometimes great results can be found with different seating depth.
Try a shorter bullet if it doesn't like the 100's or the long for weight Barnes and Accubonds or other long for weight tipped bullets.
Good luck.

I have been loading for a 20" barrel 243 since 1964. Early years used H4831 with good results. Current deer load is 46 gr. Ramshot Hunter Fed 210's and 85 gr. Barnes TSX. My other 243 22" Rem MR likes 95 or 100 gr. partitions with IMR4350 at 40.5 gr. or 45 gr IMR7828.

If I had to spend all that time and components to get no better than 2" groups I would sell it. It's obvious it's not a shooter, you may need to spend a lot more time and money on components to find something it likes. There's a myth bandied about in gun mags and forums that short barrels require faster powders than longer barrels, this simply isn't true. The powder that gives the highest velocities in 24" barrels will also give the highest velocities in 20" barrels.
No, I don't think a lighter weight bullet would make any difference. I wouldn't be shooting at deer with ANYTHING lighter than 90gr in a 243, even then, a 100gr would be my recommendation.
If you want an accurate rifle, sell your 243 and buy a 25-06.

Cheers.

Or sell your 243 and buy a 243. The resons for buying a 243 in the first place are probably still valid, whatever they were.

When you sell it, I would tell the owner that it needs tweeking. Someone may buy it as a platform for a re-barrel or re chambering.

Mannlicher stocks have special barrel bedding concerns. If it's truly a full stock carbine your issue may not have that much to do with load combinations as it might with uneven contact and pressures on the barrel. I'd try to find a good local person that can inspect it (if you don't know how) to see if there isn't room for improvement before you give up on a rifle you like.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
If I had to spend all that time and components to get no better than 2" groups I would sell it. It's obvious it's not a shooter, you may need to spend a lot more time and money on components to find something it likes. There's a myth bandied about in gun mags and forums that short barrels require faster powders than longer barrels, this simply isn't true. The powder that gives the highest velocities in 24" barrels will also give the highest velocities in 20" barrels.
No, I don't think a lighter weight bullet would make any difference. I wouldn't be shooting at deer with ANYTHING lighter than 90gr in a 243, even then, a 100gr would be my recommendation.
If you want an accurate rifle, sell your 243 and buy a 25-06.

Cheers.

I agree, but I'll explain. I got this rifle because I have a sizable gun collection, and despite this not being really collectable, it is unusual and beautiful (to me). I want it to shoot, rather than have to have it shoot. I have at least 10 other rifles I can hunt with and literally dozens of others. I enjoy piddling with them and am determined to find a load or die trying.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Mannlicher stocks have special barrel bedding concerns. If it's truly a full stock carbine your issue may not have that much to do with load combinations as it might with uneven contact and pressures on the barrel. I'd try to find a good local person that can inspect it (if you don't know how) to see if there isn't room for improvement before you give up on a rifle you like.

Agreed as well. I have thought of this and will do a little more examination to see if I can determine any problem areas. And to top it off, the little beast has about a six pound, non adjustable, trigger pull! Quite a project; I'll do a little polishing on the trigger and see if that might smooth out a little as well.

Thanks guys. BTW, I did manage to find 3031 and 4895 yesterday and will load a few just to occupy my time now that I am retired.

If you wish to see what the little spoon handled beauties look like scroll down at this closed auction.
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/...style-243-winchester

Hhmm... Looks suspiciously like an early Sako import.. But my computer won't expand the pics so I don't know..

My wif's lil 18 1/2 Mannlicher shoots 95 NP's & 100 GK in one ragetty hole I'm thinking with H414.. But I'd have to check my notes at home, so I could be wrong on powder type.

I've rarely heard the word "lovely" coupled with "Mossberg".

But it is truly in the eye of the beholder. I guess that I thought my first shotgun, nearly 50 years ago, was "lovely" and it was a Mossberg bolt action with an atrocious C-Lect choke and barrel cuts which made it sound like a howitzer.

The quality of the leader-priced Mossberg barrel, action fit, wood fit, etc. can't be expected to perform much better than the 2" groups you've been getting. It is possible that you might swap out components and accidentally hit a sweet spot, but it is the nature of economically-built rifles that their performance isn't always repeatable, so the next time you go out with a load which happened to shoot a 1" group for you it may be shooting 2" groups instead. Any of which are minute-of-deer at a hundred or two yards, so the Mossberg is reasonbly adequate for the purpose for which it was built and sold.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I've rarely heard the word "lovely" coupled with "Mossberg".

But it is truly in the eye of the beholder. I guess that I thought my first shotgun, nearly 50 years ago, was "lovely" and it was a Mossberg bolt action with an atrocious C-Lect choke and barrel cuts which made it sound like a howitzer.

The quality of the leader-priced Mossberg barrel, action fit, wood fit, etc. can't be expected to perform much better than the 2" groups you've been getting. It is possible that you might swap out components and accidentally hit a sweet spot, but it is the nature of economically-built rifles that their performance isn't always repeatable, so the next time you go out with a load which happened to shoot a 1" group for you it may be shooting 2" groups instead. Any of which are minute-of-deer at a hundred or two yards, so the Mossberg is reasonbly adequate for the purpose for which it was built and sold.

HA!! I had that same Mossberg experience. A 20 ga. bolt gun with a removable mag., and a adjustable choke I also agree on the attractiveness comment, except for this little Mannlicher. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder as we know.

Hey I really like that rifle. Always wanted an 800 just because it's different AND that's a mannlicher to boot.

I've used 85hpbt with 4350 41-43gr in a Rem 700 It doesn't like 100 or 105's. My Mannlicher Schonaeur FS likes 100 and 105 just fine also with 4350.

Rich

I'm thinking maybe some bedding work and polishing the crown might help more than burning up a lot of components.

Likely. I am going to try the faster powders since they are loaded and I will then start working on the bedding issue if needed. Thanks for the advice.

Many years ago when Browning had their bolt action rifles made by Sako, I had a Browning Safari grade 243. I did some talking to friends, gun shop commandos and read a lot of reloading manuals and magazines.
I found that Speer 100 grain spitzers and Speer 100 round nose with 39.5 grains of IMR 4350 with CCI LR mag primers.

Pure hell on deer.

Sorry, got called away by grand daughter to accumulate necessary raw materials to make a pig from oat meal can/box.

I found that Sierra 70 and 80 grain BTHPs worked very well on groundhogs IMR 4350 and when it was reintroduced by Dupont IMR 4831. I don't have the particulars up here at the house. And bride is calling me to dinner.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
Many years ago when Browning had their bolt action rifles made by Sako, I had a Browning Safari grade 243. I did some talking to friends, gun shop commandos and read a lot of reloading manuals and magazines.
I found that Speer 100 grain spitzers and Speer 100 round nose with 39.5 grains of IMR 4350 with CCI LR mag primers.

Pure hell on deer.

Sorry, got called away by grand daughter to accumulate necessary raw materials to make a pig from oat meal can/box.

I found that Sierra 70 and 80 grain BTHPs worked very well on groundhogs IMR 4350 and when it was reintroduced by Dupont IMR 4831. I don't have the particulars up here at the house. And bride is calling me to dinner.

Jim

Thanks Jim, I'll try that also if my other fixes fail. I'll have to check my bullet inventory and see if I have those Speers. Good luck with the pig!

If that were my shooter I would stop mucking about with load combinations, take the rifle apart and start checking every thing, including the twist rate for CERTAIN, slightly longer base mount screws and krap in the screw holes keeping the screws from torqueing down correctly, swap scopes, pillar or alum full length bed or epoxy the receiver minimum, check or just re-crown, and clean the bore down to bare metal with Wipe-Out and inspect the throat and bore.

I would also weight sort the brass and bullets, find the case base to land touching length for EACH bullet weight and brand you want to shoot and measure the ogive length for each bullet and brand on EACH BOX OF BULLETS.

I've had 3 different ogive lengths on ONE box of Hornady 7mm 120 gr VM's and two lengths in many other boxes of bullets no matter what the brand was. I guarantee my once 5 shot 7-08 bugholer load went to hellinabasket when that happened.

I have 4 6mm's of various case sizes right now and have had well over a dozen 6mm's over the past 50 years from 6mm FB to 6-06 and one blown out 6mm-300 H&H for a very short time, I never did get a decent load for that one before the barrel washed out.

My 16.5" 6BR likes Varget and RL15 so I would suggest looking at load data for the T/C Encore pistols and go to the website 6mmBR-www.6mmbr.com as it has lots of excellent data to choose from.

EVERY rifle I have likes one or two bullets and one or two powders for bugholers, you just have to work to find those, but if your rifle is not up to snuff no matter how pretty it is or what scope it wears, you're just spinning your wheels until the rifle is set up correctly. I guarantee some of my mix and match, totally YOUGLY Handi-rifle builds are laughed at until I start shooting circles around those high dollar pretty things that need work.

I made lots of money and rarely had to buy loading components/shooting gear, from the early 60's to mid 80's, just by "fixin" shooters the owners deemed "lousy". 90% were bedding problems or filthy bores, loose scope/base screws, bad scopes, the owners themselves, and bad reloading procedures. I kept the usable components, learned lots about different brands of shooters, spent hardly more than an evenings highly pleasurable time and made many good friends along the way.

I also guarantee I would see many come back within 3-4 years complaining again because they were to lazy to follow my recommendations on reloading procedures and rifle upkeep.

One other aside...I built a 6mm Rem WAY back, standard 1-12 back then, 26" #7 taper Douglas air gauged barrel, that wouldn't shoot anything but the Speer 70 gr TNTHP and a full case of H4350 slightly compressed...velo was just shy of 3300 fs...not very fast compared to the near 3600 fs I can get with todays powders.

I had little difficulty taking ground squirrels out to 800 yds or so...the difficulty was keeping from laughing and spoiling the shots while watching them running around first dodging the bullet impact and dirt shower, then the rifle report...they couldn't put the sound together with where the dirt shower came from to locate the shooter and if you were on a hillside shooting into a valley, the rifle shot reverberated from many directions.

6mm's are inherently accurate. What you mean by "accurate" might be different from my level of "accurate". I know a lot of hunters that think 1.5 - 2" is perfectly acceptable but 0.5" per 5 shots is my maximum,...anything over that needs reduction work.


Faster powders for light bullets, slower powders for the heavier bullets, match the bullet weight AND length for the twist and game and, if you must make your rifle into an all-in-one, pick one light bullet for varmints and on slightly heavier than midpoint for larger game...for the 6mm, 55-70 for varmints and 80-95 for larger game.

Luck

i have had great luck with imr 7828 with nosler 95 gr bts out of my ruger ultra lite with a 18 in barrel. this shoots under .5 at 100 yds for 3 shots ,than the pencil barrel gets to hot and it starts to spray them.my load is 47.5 gr of 7828. this is over max in newer books but works for me in my rifle

If u rule out scope and bedding issues and your using slower powders try Fed 215 Mag primers.
I used them in my 243 win and they were "the" best in it.

IMR-4350 was my go to hunting load powder behind 95gr NPT.
IMR-4895 worked super for 70 - 85 grs.