Hi Guys:

First I am not a bench rest rifleman. How should I judge my performance of the 204 Ruger. Should I use three shot groups or five shot groups as my base.

As a rule of thumb it was said that going from 3 to 5 shot groups opens up the group to almost double the size. So if I was shooting .500 three shot groups it would be 1. inch with a five shot group.

I have always used 3 shot groups for my hunting rifles. What in your opinion should I use for my 204 Remington Varmint Rifle, Heavy Barrel. 3 or 5..???

I am experimenting with 28 grains H4895 @ 3845 fps... warm load.... 40 grain Berger Bullet.. 5 shot group one inch at 100 yards, ok but not great..??? I want to try the 35 grain Bergers but can't find them yet.

I also want to try AA2520 but can't find it locally yet also. I was at Cabelas in Hamburg PA, they had Winchester 204 brass, but I am using Hornady...

Regards... Jim P.

PAHunter: I buy my 35 gr. Bergers from Russ Haydons Shooters Supply - I will attempt to post a link or you can just search for Russ Haydons Shooters Supply.
http://www.shooters-supply.com/
They are extremely accurate bullets though and quite lethal and frangible on Varmints of all sizes! I use these Berger 35's in two of my three 204 Varminters!
In my latest 204 Varminter I have done load testing with only one bullet - the Sierra 32 gr. Blitz Kings! I have now also used these on several sizes of Varmints and I am completely happy with them! If anything the Sierra 32's are even more frangible than the Berger 35's!
Several of my friends are using the Sierra 32's in their 204's and they are universally happy with this bullet also!
I to have only Hornady brass to feed my 204's but I would not hesitate to use Winchester or Remington 204 brass in my various 204's when and if it becomes available!
I also would like to comment on the prefferable number of shots for groupings.
When I am doing load development for my Varminters and smaller caliber (28 caliber and under) Big Game Rifles I always fire five shot groups. Anymore (for the last several years - 8 or so!) I simply refuse to do any load development or testing in less than excellent shooting conditions!!! Under these conditions a person can readily weed out the less prefferable loads for ones Rifles!
I will wait weeks if need be to get calm conditions and good light. So be it! I have cut down my load development trepidations by 70% using this policy!
I mean - I shoot at least 70% less test loads now til I find one I am happy with accuracy wise!
In my larger Big Game Rifles I use three shot groups mostly. But I occasionally fire 5 shot groups if any question exists as to load consistency in my "magnums".
Be sure to try the 32 gr. Sierras!
And if you want I will relay the load (the same load is used in these two Rifles) that I use in my first couple of 204's with the 35 gr. Berger bullet.
I will throw out a W.A.G. here in estimating the average increase difference in 3 and 5 shot groupings! In excellent conditions I think my shooting would show a 20% increase in measured group size of the 5 shot groupings over the 3 shot groupings. I have on rare occasions found myself with 4 bullets or only 3 of a particular load and comparing that to the subsequent (or previous) 5 shot strings with that load I consider the 20% difference as my average increase from 3 to 5 shot groups.
I suggest that you use 5 shot groups for your load development tests of your 204 and then if you verify sight in in subsequent years or for subsequent Hunts then 3 shot groups will serve that purpose well for you!
Good luck with your 204!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hi VG:

Thanks for the link, I called but they are out of stock also on the Berger 35 grain 20 cal.

Yes, please send the recipe you are using with this bullet. Like I said I started with H4895 and want to try AA2520.... send me your recipe for that powder also.

I just ordered a box of the 32 grain V Max to try.

I will load develop with 5 shot groups and see where that takes me.

Regards... Jim P.

PA Hunter: Here goes with my 35 gr Berger bullet 204 load. Like I said it shoots VERY well in my remington 700 VLS (26" barrel) and my Ruger 77 V/T (26" barrel).

204 Ruger load: Berger 35 gr. bullet in Hornady cases with Federal 205M primers and 28.0 grs. of H4895 powder. These loads have the Berger bullets seated well back from the leades of the rifling.
I hope this load works well for you and please double check my load with some reliable sources before you touch some of them off.
The 20 caliber stuff is getting real popular and tough to find sometimes - I am finding out!
To bad Russ was out of the Bergers!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

For load testing I always use three shots.

Even for my two BR Rifles I use only three shots, with these I use a a fouling shot.

If you dont get a bug hole with three shots, five will not make it any better.

With a hunting rifle or even a varmint rifle I consider five shot groups unneeded.

A reasonable stiff barrel that will group well with certain load, will carry on to shoot well with multible shots, as long as you give the barrel a chance to stay within a reasobnable
temperature.

In BR you have either 7 or 10 minutes to fire five record shots and a few sighters and barrels don't get hot at that rate at least not where I live.

Fred Melzer.

Because I use my .204 exclusively for prairie dogs....once the shots are centered on the target...I like using the intended target for testing. Not being much of a benchrest guy I don't really care if I can shoot tight groups. I would measure the guns accuracy on hits. I have seen 17 straight hits at over 320 yds. which is a fine measure of the gun.

quote:

I would measure the guns accuracy on hits. I have seen 17 straight hits at over 320 yds.

That is really the best way to judge a rifle's long range potential. If a rifle performs in the above manner you don't need to shoot groups.

Fred Melzer

Hi SKB...

That is a great way to test the accuracy of a rifle.... but I am cursed in obtaining sub MOA groups. I know very well that many great hunters use rifles that shoot even two inch groups or larger and are fantastic shots.

It seems once I did achieve those itty bitty groups either it be with one of my big bores, or varmint rifles, that is what I set out to achieve.... sub MOA.

Ironically I have this on I would say 95% or more on my many rifles. It used to be that I would just start hanloading development on a new caliber, most of the times never even trying factory ammo. But now I try some of the permium ammo before I start handloading, just in case there is a sleeper load in there. I have have two of these loads one in Remmie Factory 180 grn 300 RUM, the other in Winchester 130 grain 270 WSM Ballistic Tips. Both sub MOA, the Winnie shoots this in two different rifles.

I would be very satisfied with my HV Barrel Rem 700 to shoot close to .500.... only because of the caliber and varmint status.

Regards.... Jim P.

If you want to check whether you scope has been misaligned when the rifle got under your pickup tyre, use a three-shot group. If you want to rule out those reloads which don't group worth a damn, a three-shot group will suffice (provided you do your part).

If you want to examine accuracy, you need ten-shot groups.

Carcano

John Barsness, who writes for Rifle and Handloader magazines, did some testing on 3 shot versus 5 shot groups. After his testing, he found that 5 shot groups were exactly .66 larger than 3 shot groups. So, I multiply my 3 shot groups by 1.66 to get the 5 shot group size.
I only shoot 3 shot groups for load development, and always have. I know in 3 shots whether or not a load is going to perform. And, the barrel doesn't get worn out finding a load that works. I use only good barrels in custom rifles, so barrels are expensive.
Don

Hi DMB:

I read John Barness's articles, and many others. I think that is another one of my curses. I get way to many hunting and shooting magazines a month.

Here is a thought.... I always use the same brass for a given caliber, either it be Winchester, Remington or Hornady to name a few. I always use CCI primers for their designated caliber. Now here is the handloading QUESTION.... presented to all you guys...

What in your opinion presents the biggest variance in accuracy... the powder or the bullet ?? I usually... nine times out of ten, pick the bullet I want to use, in the weight range I want to use, and try as many as 4 or 5 different powders to gain my sub MOA accuracy, keeping the brass and the primers the same.

In the case of my 204 Ruger, I found my self bouncing around because I am undecided on what bullet is going to get me the best accuracy. So far I am playing with Berger...40 grain... 35 grain... Hornady 32 grain... want to try Sierra 32 grain... geez now if I start playing with H4895.... AA2230.... AA2250.... I will wear my barrel out before I really settle on a load... Just kidding of course, but it led me to think on what is the bigger variance... the bullet or the powder.... sort of like the chicken or the egg .... LOL

Regards... Jim P.

Carcano91,

quote:

If you want to examine accuracy, you need ten-shot groups.

Quite true.


Statistically speaking, a 7 shot group is the bare minimum to determine consistency\uniformity. However, if the first three yield a shotgun pattern it's a waste of time and materials to shoot four more.

My personal opininion(kinda like a.......) IS NOT DEPENDENAT ON THE POWDER, BULLET, PRIMER, but is dependant on the rifle being tested in!!! And the efficiency of the shooter of saId rifle!! 3 SHOT GROUPS will suffice for accurracy testing of most anything you want to try!!! You shoot 3 shots.......how long between shots? You shoot 5 shots......how long between shots? If I would give the little "pencil" barrels 10 minutes between shots on rifles that I put together, they'd all be WORLD RECORD HOLDERS!!! Light barrels, heavy barrels, ........don't make a flip!! Now go and want to put 10 shots into the "smallest available space" in under 10 minutes?????? I want a big ol fat barrel, set in a "you can't carry that bastard around" stock. For your testing of the 204, 3 shots will probably suffice!! Go to the 22-250, SWIFT, 6mm, 25-06, 7mm, various .308's.......3 shots will serve your purpose!!! 100 yards doesn't tell me squat!!!!! 300 YARDS may have a little meaning!! GHD

PAHunter: In my small caliber Rifle acquisitions over the past ten+ years I almost always have in mind what particular bullet I intend to use in it.
So in partial answer to your question - I am not sure is - I guess - my best answer.
Like I said for the past 10+ years I have in mind a particular bullet for my new Rifles and I always seem to get around to finding an accurate load (powder and charge) for the bullet I intend to use.
I have kept real good notes over the past 20+ years on my load development, for all my Rifles and in reviewing them I would venture that bullets and velocity ranges of bullets has more effect on accuracy than powder type - at least in the types of Rifles I have gone for!
Yours is a good question and I am not sure for ANY PARTICULAR large sample of common type Rifles there is a correct answer. I would not be surprised if half of the Rifles were more "accuracy conscious" to bullet type and the other half of the Rifles were more temperamental towards powder and powder charges.
Each Rifle is an individual may be the pertinent way to look at this question?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I think 5 shot groups really wring out a rifle and seperate the men from the boys when it comes to accuracy, it also puts more pressure on the shooter, for my varmint rifles I do 5 shot groups, for my big game hunting rifles I do 3 shot groups. as for accuracy standards I like .5-.75 5 shot groups from the heavy barrel guns in my case the big CZ, for my sporter weight varmint rifles I like MOA for 5 shots. for the big game rifles I like MOA or less for 3 shots

If your are setting up a gun to use primarily to shoot prairie dogs or something like that...that offers many targets at varying ranges you want 'repeatability'. Just to set up the gun I use 5 shot groups but I can generally tell if the group opens much most of the time it is shooter error...not the gun. I have been blessed with several very accurate guns and few that required extensive load development.
My big game rifles on the other hand ....if they will put three in a tight group...sub MOA if you will...I am going hunting.

Hi GD...VG...CC... & OF2


Some very good comments guys. I will probably play with the five shot average for now. I have been handloading for the past 30 years.... like one of you said some rifles were easy to get to sub MOA and some were a real bear, my custom 416 Rem Mag and my custom 375 H&H Mag come to mind as a real pain in the ass... mucho hours of load development.

That is when I thought of the question on what would matter more the bullet or the powder. I think most bullets are sooooo good today that the difference should be minimal, but that's not always the case.

I use a Chronograph on all my loads and I once strived for a very low Standard Deviation with a low extreme spread in velocity, but hell I have some rifles with double and triple the SD of a rifle with a low SD that shoot rings around it.... go figure.

On another note I was at Gander Mt today in Harrisburg PA. Man what a nice store. They had a better selection of rifles than Cabela's. They had Remington xr-100's 204 cal on the shelf, (3) of them. Had at least (3) Savage HBV/s SS in 204... a bunch of Rugers in HB and regular in 204 and much more. They have Winchester factory ammo 204 $11.99 a box, and Hornady factory ammo both 32 grain & 40 grain... about 25 boxes of each on the shelf. I had to buy a box of the winnes and try them out They also had H4895 & AA2520.... The only thing they didn't have was the seperate bullets, no Berger, Sierra, or Hornady in any 20 cal. But I was really impressed with the store and the prices.

They also had on clearance about (4) 673 Guide Guns in 308 and 350 Rem Mag... $649.00 Hell they had three rows of Clearance rifles. I knew if I didn't get out of there soon one of those was going to follow me home again.

Regards.... Jim P.

Jim, I stopped in there on my way up to the office last Sunday. The prices on reloading stuff isn't that great a deal but the fact that they have such a selection is a plus!!!! Better than any BassPro I've ever seen!!! And probably a better selection than Cabelas!! And as far as their "clearance or Used" guns, they will "negotiate"!! BTDT!!! Do you live close to that store? If you live up the road toward Williamsport, you ought to check out "Troxall's Sporting Goods" off Lycoming Creek road in Williamsport!!! Undeniably the most well stcked reloading store I've ever seen!!! And prices pretty much match mail order.........without dealing with shipping!! I was there on Tuesday and picked up a bunch of stuff!!! Check them out!! Charlie (GHD) PS: Your .204 data will arrive shortly in a PM!

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
Hi Guys:

First I am not a bench rest rifleman. How should I judge my performance of the 204 Ruger. Should I use three shot groups or five shot groups as my base.

As a rule of thumb it was said that going from 3 to 5 shot groups opens up the group to almost double the size. So if I was shooting .500 three shot groups it would be 1. inch with a five shot group.

I have always used 3 shot groups for my hunting rifles. What in your opinion should I use for my 204 Remington Varmint Rifle, Heavy Barrel. 3 or 5..???

I am experimenting with 28 grains H4895 @ 3845 fps... warm load.... 40 grain Berger Bullet.. 5 shot group one inch at 100 yards, ok but not great..??? I want to try the 35 grain Bergers but can't find them yet.

I also want to try AA2520 but can't find it locally yet also. I was at Cabelas in Hamburg PA, they had Winchester 204 brass, but I am using Hornady...

Regards... Jim P.

I use 10 shot groups at200 yds. to judge my 223 varmint loads. Jay

5 shot groups, at no less than 200yds, using the OCW load method, and fired "round robin" style to more evenly disperse the human error across the data set.

in a 3 shot group with 2 in 1 hole and the 3rd jumping it out to a .6moa group, are you really sure that 3rd shot was the rifle or the load and not operator error?

since using the OCW method and firing round robin style, my results have been far more consistent and I have wasted FAR LESS barrel life in finding "THE" load.

Hi Guys:

I am still reloading and testing groups. Powders tried so far are H4895 and AA2520.. The Berger 40 grain shoot ok..... .920 five shot groups about equal with H4895 & AA2520... I still get better groups with factory Hornady 40 grain bullets... about .900 for five shot groups.. usually 4 shots at sub or around .500 with the next one out a little.

I just hanloaded the 32 grain Hornady Vmax's with 2520 and will give them a go. I still can't find Sierra 32 grain or Berger 35 grain ANYWHERE..... AAAGGGRRRRRRrrrrr...

I ran into a problem with getting the burnt powder and carbon out of my bore, even though I cleaned after after every shooting session. It was taking forever with Hopps #9 Solvent, Copper Melt, Shooters Choice, just to name a few. Then I tried Break Free bore paste, wow, five or six patches of that stuff and it was squeeky clean, I ended it by running a few patches of Break free CLP down the bore. Then ater yesterdays shooting session, just three patches of Hopps #9 and it was squeeky clean.

Live and learn....

Regards... Jim P.

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
Hi Guys:

I am still reloading and testing groups. Powders tried so far are H4895 and AA2520.. The Berger 40 grain shoot ok..... .920 five shot groups about equal with H4895 & AA2520... I still get better groups with factory Hornady 40 grain bullets... about .900 for five shot groups.. usually 4 shots at sub or around .500 with the next one out a little.

I just hanloaded the 32 grain Hornady Vmax's with 2520 and will give them a go. I still can't find Sierra 32 grain or Berger 35 grain ANYWHERE..... AAAGGGRRRRRRrrrrr...

I ran into a problem with getting the burnt powder and carbon out of my bore, even though I cleaned after after every shooting session. It was taking forever with Hopps #9 Solvent, Copper Melt, Shooters Choice, just to name a few. Then I tried Break Free bore paste, wow, five or six patches of that stuff and it was squeeky clean, I ended it by running a few patches of Break free CLP down the bore. Then ater yesterdays shooting session, just three patches of Hopps #9 and it was squeeky clean.

Live and learn....

Regards... Jim P.

Jim, Check out some of data from huntingmag, Benchmark, H322 or Alliant's 10x(though couldn't find any loading data for it) would be my choice for the 204, ball powders like 2520 don't care for alot of heat when peppering Pdogs in 90degree weather. Jay

http://www.huntingmag.com/204ruger/

Hi Jay:

Thanks for the site and info on the loads, I printed it out and added to my collection of 204 Reloading data.

If I were to guess, with a decent BC... and a velocity over 4000 FPS, I would say the Berger 35 grain bullet would be ideal for my purposes. But again it will all boil down to whatever bullet and powder give me the best accuracy. The Berger 40 garin with 28 grains of H4895 @ about 3850 shot sub MOA but not GREAT.

I am looking for a load to shoot at least .500 for five shots if possible. I use H380 for my 22-250 with Sierra 52 HPBT with very good results. I like the way AA2520 meters out from the powder measure. My next two powders will probably be RL10X and H335 to give a whirl...

I just counted the powders on my reloading shelf, I have 11 different powders... Hmmmmmm how does that compare to you avid handloaders

PS... Het GD... sell me some of your Sierra 32 grainers, you bought them all up...


Regards... Jim P.

Jim, The Nov./Dec. issue of Rifleshooter has a 204 shootout between the Ruger and Savage. The best group was shot by the Ruger @.63" using Hornady 32gr. loads, the avg. groups were 1.21 for the Ruger(32gr.) and 1.12"(40gr). The Savage went 1.01"(32gr.) and .78"(40gr.).

My thinking is, maybe slowing the bullets down a bit may give one better accuracy, thats what I found out with my VS 223, anyway. I use Benchmark and RE10x with that rifle, thats why I suggested using those two powders, being that the 204 and 223 are very similar in case size.
BTW, Benchmark and RE10x go through my Hornady measure very well, give or take 1 or 2 tenths, ball powders are just a little more accurate through it.

Like I said in my previous post, I use 10 shot groups at200yds. to judge my varmint rifle accuracy, 1.25-1.5" groups are the norm with the VS 223, .6-.7moa isn't to shabby for 10 shots, oh, first five shots usually go an inch. Give it a try, you may be pleasantly surprised. Jay

Jim, Just got off the phone with Paul @Sierra, told me that 2015 was the most accurate and 10x came in 2nd with their 39grainer, with 25.7 and 25.1grs., respectively being the most accurate. Give them a call to get the start and max loads in case I remembered them wrong. 1-800-223-8799. Jay

quote:

I just counted the powders on my reloading shelf, I have 11 different powders... Hmmmmmm how does that compare to you avid handloaders

43 different smokeless powders, plus 2 kinds of black powder and 2 black powder substitutes. I love to experiment...can you tell?

quote:

43 different smokeless powders, plus 2 kinds of black powder and 2 black powder substitutes. I love to experiment...can you tell?

Hi Dave:
Holy shit.... that is one hell of alot of different powders... It must have something to do with us PA boys... LOL

You are close to where I live, any good Chuck fields in Center Valley..?? I was hunting the State gamelands off of 309 North... but some bugger killed over 16 chucks already in the fields I used to hunt. The pickings seem a bit thin now. He is using a Contender Rifle in 204 Ruger, nice chap I met him in the fields last week. I just wish he wasn't such a good shot.

Regards... Jim P.

This area has been crap for varmints for some time now. Just too damn many homes replacing fields.

Try alfalfa fields in Albany township near Kempton. Generally still wide open spaces in that farm area of Berks county.

Guys statistically, every so often a rifle that averages 2 inch groups over the long haul will drop some half inch groups. How do you know if you only shoot three shots you aren't just lucky a time or two.

In "Rifle Accuracy Facts" the author, who worked for Uncle Sam on such matters, only characterized the accuracy as the average of no less than 8 five shot groups. Preferring to have ten such groups. He worked out the statistics and such.

That is asking a lot of centerfires even with heavy barrels. And obviously a slow rate of fire with lots of cool down time is in order. On the other hand, shooting too few shots causes lots of people to chase their tails looking for best handloads in my opinion.

Its a tough situation, but if you want real statistical rigor you need a good many shots. I really find 3 shot groups not very helpful.