I am looking for a rifle to punch paper at 100 yards. I will not be shooting varmints etc.. with the rifle. I want something I can shoot economically and that is very accurate. A rifle that will not heat up quickly would also be a benefit. A .17 rimfire would be cheaper to shoot than either of the centerfires, but I have no experience with their accuracy. Will they shoot as well as a handloaded .223 or .204? A .17 cal rifle from Savage or marlin is also much less expensive than a centerfire. I'd like to hear from someone who owns both.

well, i'm not sure if anyone can say what rifle/cartridge will be more accurate, as its all a crap shoot. One thing if absolute accuracy is the issue--as you mentioned, you could handload for the 204 and 223. Otherwise I think its luck of the draw. I owned a 17 (marlin), it probably averaged 3/4" or so at 100 yds, but since its a bit more sensitive to the wind and most days I shot it it was semi windy, absolute accuracy was always a little hard to say. Plus we weren't really shooting froma rest per se--just over a sweatshirt over a bench. Certainly it shot some groups that were smaller than that. I just got a 223 that I have yet to have found a sunny day to shoot--but I'll let you know how that goes. I've seen them that will go 1/2" out of the box, but I also saw one that did closer to 4" out of the box. In general though I think you could probably expect more like 3/4" from a sporter type rifle. I'd guess that a 204 would be similar.

I do have an old 43 winchester in 22 hornet that'll do a 1/2" on a day I'm shooting to its abilities.

IMHO only the .223 will give the long term satisfaction you seek. The lesser calibers are (once again IMHO) more problematical. The wind issue and the cleaning rod issue and the ammo cost issue, as well as the cost issues. I would also think that more models are available in the .223 than the other rifle choices. I am currently working with a Ruger .17 HMR belonging to my brother in law. Not impressed at all, except for the soda can ritual for the nephew's.. And have had experience with the .17 Remington & .17 Ackley Hornet years ago, also not impressed. Good luck and shoot often.

I own a couple of the HMR 17s, and a couple of 223s.

I can handload a 223 down to a 22 mag or 22 long rifle and do it cheaper than buying the 22 mag or the 17 HMR. It will also be more accurate, and will allow me to have all sorts of bullet selections to suit my needs.

Using blue dot shotgun powder, that info I originally got off of jamescalhoon's web site there in Montana, www.jamescalhoon.com, he had some load info on the 223 using Blue Dot. I tried it and not only is it accurate but it makes it cheap to load the round, and also since you are using less powder it takes forever it seems to heat up a varmint weigh barrel.

If interested, email me and I can send you all the load data I did on the 223 with Blue Dot.

As for the 204, well I am not into trends and it doesn't seem to offer me personally what I don't already have in the 223, and actually is less appealing and flexible than the 223 in my opinion.

good luck on the choice you make.

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Elkhunter; I have no experience with the 17 HMR, but I do with the .223 and the 204!

The 223 & the 204 can be very accurate!

I had a Rem M-788 in 223 and with it, I could pick off aspirin-sized pebbles placed on the target frames at 100 yards and Prairie Dogs were in "harms way" out to 400 yards! My brother has that rifle now!

I have a TC Encore with a 26 inch barrel! This rifle has had "NO" custom work done to it! With factory Hornady ammo loaded with 32 grain Hornady V-Max bullets I can shoot 3/8 inch groups at 100 Yards! With my reloads, using 32 grain Hornady V-Max bullets I can shoot groups as small as .330 inches!

Good luck on your decission!

Elkhunter, I own or have owned several different rifles(and handguns) in these calibers you are asking about. 100 yards is easy!! .204,.223 and the 17HMR are all ridicoulously accurrate 100 yard rounds.
The 17HMR is just plain and simply the most amazing little thing to come down the pike in a long time!!! To date, have owned or put together somewhere in the range of 30 of them and to the number they have been ACCURRATE!!!! They have included the Marlin V and VS, Savage 93's, Strikers, NEF's(only one to have any problems with and that was poor machining at the factory(3) but others(3) have been great little shooters, T/C barrels, Rem 597's!!! All would do sub-1" groups at 100 yards.....mostly out of the box.....RIMFIRE factory loadings.....How much simpler can it get? And you don't need to pick up brass and then reload(is time worth anything if all you're shooting is 100 yards?)
The .204 is going to be 3X more popular next year than it is today!!!!! Accurrate, fast, outperforms or stays with .224" stuff(the big .224's!!!) out to 500 and is just plain fun to shoot!!!
The .223 Remington is here to stay!!! Too many "Black Guns" made for it, not to mention bolts and single shots and every Wal-Mart or chain store or catalog place has "boo-koo's" of cheapo ammo for sale!!!
The 17HMR ammo is coming down in price! Mid-South has it for 7.19/50 now!! And just for sheer fun and getting to pull a trigger that would be my pick!!!! There's a pretty good one listed in the classifieds right now!!! The scope that is on that one was taken off and tested last week on another rifle just like it that is a known shooter......5 shots, 100 yards, .480"!!! The scope is fine!!! The rifle will probably get tested tomorrow unless it sells tonite!!! Less than 100 rounds trhu this one!! The one that did the scope test has in excess of 2500 rounds down it's tube!! GHD

Elk Hunter, do you hand load? If so the .223/.204 is your answer. If not go with the .17 HMR. I would likely buy one of the CZ versions if that were the case, but two buddies with the Ruger .17/77 are way happy with them, sub MOA being the norm. My litmus on this choice is cost, handloads for the .223 can be cheap.

I have also found that for paper punching a good .22 rf in long rifle will surprise you now and then. One of my very smallest groups came from a worked over 10/22 off a bench on a calm day. Measured a hair over .2" for 3 shots.

DD, I don't won't to "be surprised now and then"!!! But I was surpised 2 weeks ago tomorrow!! When I shot a .440", 3 shot gtoup at 500 yards with the .204!! Even had a fellow member of the board WHO WAS PULLING TARGETS and NEXTEL DIRECT got ahold of me!!!! Yes the horseshoe was no less than elbow depth up the butt to do that!!!! Now if I can repeat it!!! But I'd bet on the 17HMR Marlin to go go <1.00" at 200 before I'd bet on the .204 to go <1.00@ 500!!!! MORE FUN THAN EATIN BEANS!!!! 17HMR!!! GHD!!PS: And the .223 doesn't even play into the scenario!!! 222MAG was forever superior to the ..223!!!!!!! But a lot of folks have them, and all kinds of firearms have been made for them so I guess we have to tolerate them!!!! I guarantee the the first flame to this will be from "above the MD line"!!!!

I ain't takin' that bet! Just an opinion but I think the neatest aspect of the .17 HMR is the collusion betwixt ammo and gun manufacturers in regards to chamber dimensions. It's obvious that they have tightened things up, and subsequently raised the bar for everybody. That is a good thing.

BTW, that is fine shooting with the .204! You never know until you try.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elkhunter:
I want something I can shoot economically and that is very accurate.
Variety being the spice of life why not consider the 17 Mach 2. Cheaper, quieter, easier to shoot, just as flat shooting and accurate out to 100m as factory ammo in above cals. For 100m paper targets well worth considering.

Only disadvantage is the 17 bullet will be more affect by the wind than a heavy .223 not sure how the lighter but faster 204 bullet would compare to 223

Here's my take. The 223 is the most versatile and with all of the great benchrest quality bullets, it will probably be the most accurate after some load development. However, I have never seen a bad shooting 17 HMR or 204. Every rifle I have shot of these two calibers can consistanly do 1/2 MOA or better.

The 17 HMR is fun to shoot and no recoil. The 204 shoots flatter than a 223 and about 2/3 the recoil, but you don't have too many choices when it comes to bullets (HDY, Sierra, and Berger). The 223 will give you the most flexibily. I have a friend who shoots 1,000 Yard B/R using an 8" twist barrel and heavy (80 grain or higher bullets). He routinely whops 6BR shooters, but then again he is very talented.

I recommend you buy all three!

Kory

Kory, Good to hear from you!! Yea the 17 is just plain fun....and you don't have to pick up brass!!! Tell your friend to bring his fast twist .223 over to Williamsport, PA in July for the World Championship 1000 yard matches! Somebody is going to get an eye opener......either him or about 400 other folks!!! Fast twist and heavy bullets for caliber can be pretty impessive but heavy bullets in the 6.5's, 7's and 30's are REAL IMPRESSIVE!!!! Not real sure about the terminal results on varmints with the "big dogs" but on paper they will impress!!! The 17HMR is impressive to me if you're looking for a fun gun at 100 yards!!(Show me another rimfire that even comes close!!!!!) The .204 is impressive to me if you're looking for fun at 100 and long range varmints also! The .223 is impressive if you want to go to Wally-World and buy BULK or order from Sportsmen's Guide!! There's better .224 offerings out there!! Maybe not as cheap or as plentiful but better!!! GHD

Mr. GHD,

No, no, no, its nice to hear from YOU.

I would love to have my friend give you a 1,000 yard B/R demo with his 223, but he is based in England. I was stressing the flexibility of the round. He clearly states that the 6BR and 30BR are far superior cartidges to the 223 for long range B/R.

Regards,
Kory

A 17 rimfire may bore you a bit after a time, as it is difficult to change components around to optimize the round in any particular rifle.

The .204 is the new kid on the block, and is developing a good reputation for accuracy, so there is always some extra fun associated with being on the cutting edge of something good.

The 223 is old "tried and true" with a vast array of shooting components available, along with both cheap and quality factory ammo. The big decision with the 223 is what twist rate to get your bbl in, to match up with the bullets you want to shoot. It runs the gamit from 1 in 7 to 1 in 14 inches.

If you view complexity of options as a problem, the .204 will be fun. But if you want to reload and really have a lot of good choices in componets, the 223 is the way to go.

of the three you mentioned the .223 is tops in my opinion. I'd almost prefer the .222 but brass availability is something to consider and the .223 wins easily there.

In all seriousness, if you wish, set up with the proper scope and well developed rounds for almost any bolt action .223, you can actually shoot targets the size of bottle caps all the way to 200 yards. I've seen cheap Savage rifles shoot 3/8" groups with factory ammo in .223 at 100 yards and if you then wish to shoot sparrows off the barn roof at 200 you can do it safely!!!

Been reading your posts and thought I would try all three calibers on my 100 yd swinging 20 oz Mountain Dew bottle targets. They are hung on about 3 feet of string and move nicely in the wind simulating little green critters on the move.

Results:
NEF(223AI) 6X Scope 19 out of 20 hits
Mini 14 (223) Iron sights 7 out of 20 hits
Black rifle (223) Red Dot 14 out of 20 hits
Encore 26" (204)18x scope 20 out of 20 hits
Rem 597 (17 HMR)6x scope 20 out of 20 hits

No solid conclusions here to answer the question, but they were ALL fun!!....maybe that IS the answer!!!

Lowrider, Looks like you've got all bases covered!!! Biggest deal is, "are you having fun yet"?? You probably are!! The 17HMR, 223 or the 204 are all "acceptable" chamberings in the GHD book!!! Later! GHD

GHD,

Bet you are in the rolling hills country with great breeding areas for ground hogs. We have a few here, but we're up to our ears in fox who are really tough on the quail, geese, ducks and turkeys, so I just try to do my best to help out the birds....somebody's gotta do it!!