Anybody out there have any pet loads for their 250 AI? In particular, I'm looking at the barnes 100 Triple Shock. I had PAC-NOR put a barrell on a Remington Mountain SS with a Nikon 3x9. I killed two deer with it last years and was ecstatic with the results ... light rifle, no recoil, flat trajectory and superb bullet performance. I figure on using it on some PA groundhogs this summer ... love that rifle. The down-side is, however, I just put my 222, 223, and 25-06 out of business.

I doubt you will find anything better than Re-15 for your .250 IMP. Even in the standard .250 Savage and the wildcat .257 JDJ, Re-15 has been my powder of choice for a number of years, and there's been nothing new to come along and dethrone it in either the accuracy or velocity department.

In your IMP chamber, start around 33 grains of Re-15 with the 100 grain TSX and work up a half-grain at a time -- and you'll soon find the sweet spot.

By the way, how about a little more info on the bullet performance (range, velocity, terminal performance, etc.)?

thanks!

Bobby,

The data I had put velocity at about 3200 and was one of the reasons I went with the 250 AI; that's 25-06 performance!
The first deer I shot was on a dead run at about 150 yards (in PA that's almost an unbelievably distant opportunity). First impact was between the spine and lungs, slightly behind the line of the shoulder. Second impact was a heart/lung shot slightly behind the shoulder causing instant collapse.
The third impact was on a standing deer at about 100 yards and duplicated impact two. Again collapse was instant.
Examining the wounds proved interesting. All three entrance holes were larger than I had anticipated (about the size of a quarter). Exit wounds were smaller than I had anticipated and were a bit larger than a fifty-cent piece. All holes were peculiarly symmetrical with fine, ragged edges. For all practical purposes, it appeared they were made with a small cookie cutter.
Internally, tissue damage occurred farther from the wound channel than I've seen before. Both deer had broken rib(s) remote from the entry and exit wounds. Heart, lungs and organs near the wound were soup. Organs farther away were intact even though adjacent tissue showed trauma.
None of the bullets were recovered as they all passed through the animals. Judging from the uniformity of entrance and exit wounds, projectile performance was identical, though unobservable.
In conclusion, I was more than impressed with the results. When the bullets hit vital areas, the animal dropped in place ... no tracking. If anything, I thin I'll tame the load down a bit. I never thought I'd hunt deer with a bullet lighter than 100 grains, but if Barnes made an 85 or 87 grain .257 Triple Shocks, I think it would be perfect for the 250 AI.
Hope this helps.

Barnes still has plenty of 85 XFB discontinued bullets for sale on their website. Less than $15 box, shipped.

They work surperb in my 25-06 Rem.

Dave,

Good poop, thanks. By the way, what county in PA are you in? Doing any goodon deer?

Lehigh.

As a farmer there is never a closed season on crop damage deer. They are targets of opportunity.

I go to the upstate endless mountains region during the big game season. Missed a really big-racked buck opening day. That's OK. I don't crave antlers. Better he gets harvested by someone who will really appreciate a dandy trophy.

Dave,
Roger that, I've heard a lot of complaints that folks hunting the Potter, McKean and Warren counties aren't seeing squat. I hunted first week in Butler county.
Antlers do produce a problem; true, you can't eat antlers, but you can't hang deer booty on the wall either.

You'll never get "true" 25-06 velocity out of a 250 AI without running it at, or darned near, dangerous pressures. There just isn't enough case capacity to do it safely. Remember that most people quote POA's data when singing the praises of the 250AI and it is generally accepted/acknowledged that POA "fudged" a good deal of the performance increase data on the cartridges that he "improved".

The light weight Barnes "X" bullets, 75 and 85 grains, both work well in the 250, 250AI, 25 Souper, 257, and 257AI if your rifle will shoot good groups with them. I bought 20 boxes of the 75 grain "X"s, ask I find that it will shoot to the same approximate POA as my favorite 75 grain varmint bullets, the Hornady VMax and Sierra BTHP. I have opted into the 87 grain Speer HotCore for deer and the 87 grain Speer TNT for coyotes in my 250-3000 and 25 Souper rifles.

Jeff

260remguy-No, one can't exactly duplicate a 25-06, but 3200 fps is darn close -- and better than factory 25-06 loads with 100 grain bullets actually do.

Even the Sierra manual shows 3200 fps with 100 grain bullets in the 250AI.

onefunzr2-

Thanks for the tip on the closeout. But I must point out that Barnes had a world of trouble with the 85 grain X bullet (whether they want to admit it or not), and I wouldn't trust it at all.

What sort of trouble, Bobby?

Zero expansion...no matter the velocity level

I've shot several deer with the 75 grain X and thought that it was a really good choice for the small to medium case 25s. I find it very hard to believe that you can REALLY get 3,200 fps with a 100 grain bullet, given the 250AI's case capacity, if safe pressures are a criteria. I've owned a couple of rifles in 250AI, and still have a finish reamer, but that is 1 cartridge that I'm not going to bother with again.

Jeff

quote:

Zero expansion...no matter the velocity level

6 dead Namibian springbok would beg to differ with you. But that's OK. If no one else buys them cause of your report, that leaves more for me.

Dave-I USED to use them. Then in the mid-to-late 90s, I ran into two separate lots that refused to expand. And the lack of customer service convinced me I didn't need to bother with Barnes any more.

Barnes did finally admit some "quality control issues" and noted a metallurgical problem but thought that the 85/25s were "OK for the most part."

So have all you want. They worked well for me for a while, but I can think of better things to do with my time or money than waste them on iffy components.

Dave-To elaborate a bit more: Barnes asked for me to return any unused bullets I had so they could test them for themselves. All I wanted was an answer as to why they would not expand and whether or not future lots would suffer the same problems. I was assured they'd let me know something in a few weeks.

A few months went by, so I called them. Was told they'd "have to check on it." Another 8-10 weeks later, and I checked again, only to be told "it's being worked on, and we'll let you know soon."

A few months more, and they could no longer find my file -- let alone the bullets. I was told the person who got my info no longer worked there.

I never asked for bullets to replace the 2 or so boxes I sent to them (I had to pull most from loaded ammo). But if it would have been me in their situation, I sure as heck would have at least send the customer replacements for what they gave up. And the fact they eventually lost all the info, etc, made my decision easy: I didn't need to hassle with Barnes bullets when plenty others out there would work as well or better...

260remguy-I no longer have my 250 AI, but the 25.5"/1:10 barreled rifle I had turned up 3170 fps with its favorite load using the 100 grain BT and Re-15. Case life was fantastic, and I could kick myself for ever selling that one.

I have 2 "project" Mausers in the safe, and one day, I am going to have one of them rebarreled to 250 AI. It's one of the most efficient of the improved cartridges out there, and its gains over the parent cartridge are rather impressive. THen again, I like it for the fact bolt thrust is reduced and that cases go on forever before the need for trimming arises.

Well, I tried it in 2 rifles, a Ruger 77 RSI and a Savage 99 CD. There were feeding issues in the Ruger, so I rechambered it to 25 Souper and still have it around somewhere. I decided that I wanted most velocity than the 250AI offered in the Savage, so I rechambered it to 25-284 and use it occasionally.

The words that you used read just POA Vol 2, and I take everything written by POA with a grain or 2 of NaCl. How exactly did you determine that "It's one of the most efficient of the improved cartridges out there"? Just 'cause POA says so doesn't make it so.

Jeff

I DON'T KNOW and DON'T CARE what Ackley said about it. I've worked with many wildcats over the years, so I say this from experience.

Compare the 250 AI to any other improved cartridge out there, and in terms of relative gains versus powder capacity & powder charges used, the little quarter-bore comes out smelling like a rose.

Why would you be so obsessed with what someone did or claimed years ago? There are new powders, better and more reliable chronographs and a better dissemination of information.

By the way, those who generally have trouble with the .250 AI are those who simply rechamber a .250.

Wrong, wrong, wrong...

If you want to use an existing barrel, it needs to be set back to allow proper headspace to be reached.

Bobby,

Sounds like you DID get treated poorly by Barnes and under those circumstances I would boycott them also. I have a long list of people and businesses whom I no longer have dealings with.

However, I just rechecked my stockpile of the .257/85's and every box has the same lot/control number that were used on those springbok. I know my supply expands but I will remember your cautions if I ever need to resupply. Thanks for passing along the info. Folks like yourself is what makes AR great.

I'll agree with that statement and put a plug in for PAC-NOR as well. They did a superlative job chambering the tube, installing it and trueing my action... floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee.

You're on to a good thing. I never was able to get 3200 without pressure signs, but I did get 3140 with R15, and H4350. Sierra #5 has good data. That's good info on the 100gr TSX. I have some I need to try.

My .250-AI is now a 25-284. It's a long story on how that happened, but nothing at all adverse to say about the .250-AI. I thought it was a great cartridge.

John

Hey Guys:
I have a 250 SavAI with Heavy Shilen 26" bbl, 12" twist.
I use converted 243 or 7mm08 brass which I think is stronger than 250 brass
I get the following:
3375 fps with 42g IMR4320 with 87g bullets
3225 fps with 40g IMR4320 with 100g bullets
2850 fps with 37g REL 15 with 115 Nos Part
2900 fpg with 40g H414 with 117g bullets

A pleasure to reload and shoot, extremely accurate, a lot of power for such a small cartridge.......LR

quote:

I decided that I wanted most velocity than the 250AI offered...

Jeff,

You frequently comment on your disatisfaction with .250 AI velocities. What velocities WERE you getting. I've never seen you mention any specific numbers, but just that the .25 Souper and the .25-284 do better. They WILL do better. They hold more powder. But what velocities were you able to attain with your .250 AIs? Very curious to see how your results compare with mine.

Thanks,

John

John-One thing Jeff may not have considered is that rechambered factory barrels seldom live up to the velocity expectations/potential of the cartridge. Standard factory barrels are rough, whereas the interiors of custom barrels are as smooth as glass. That makes a ton of difference -- as do the tighter tolerances.

A few other comments:

(1) The 250SavAI is the best of all AI's in terms of velocity increase because it yields the greatest percentage increse in case capacity over the parent cartridge.....how can there be any argument here ??? Any case with a lot of taper are the best cases to improve ......257 Roberts, 6.5x55, and 7x57.

(2) The 250SavAI will never equal a 25-06 period !!!!!!(and yes I have worked with a 25-06 and 25 Gibbs)

(3) I also have a 25-308AI in 24" bbl, 10" twist and yes it gives higher velocities than my 250 SavAI but not as high as a 25-06. I can get 2925 - 2950 fps with several powders and 120g bullets.

(4) If anyone wants to build a 250SavAI, be sure and get a 10" twist. The 12" twist was a mistake. The only 120g bullet that it shoots accurately is the short Speer 120g GS.

Good shooting.....LR

I was getting 2950+/- in the Ruger and 3050+/- in the Savage, but they were closer to max loads than I prefer to use. I rechambered the Ruger to 25 Souper, as it is a little faster at lower pressures and it feeds better. I rechambered the Savage to 25-284 for the added velocity at lower pressures and because I have several other 25-284s that I could use to work up loads, as I don't like to work up loads in a non-bolt action if I can avoid it.

My 250AI data is going on 20 years old now and is in a box of old 3-ring binders buried in the storage room. I think that I gave the 250AI a fair chance to produce, but can with all honesty say that I prefer the 25 Souper in short barreled short actions and the 25-284 in longer barreled short actions. Right now I am spending time with the 25 WSSM in a variety of Winchester 70 SSAs and really like it. Of the 50 or so 257 bore rifles that I currently have, although over 1/2 are chambered in 250-3000, none are chambered in 250AI.

Jeff

20REMGUY WROTE:

quote:

Of the 50 or so 257 bore rifles that I currently have, although over 1/2 are chambered in 250-3000, none are chambered in 250AI.

So, this just begs for the asking, if you have that many .250s, HOW MANY 6.5s must you have to go by "260remguy"???

I'm jealous...

23:

2 - 256 Newton
2 - 6.5-284
4 - 6.5x55
15 - 260 (I just sold a couple of 260s, so I'm a little low right now)

I collect Savage 1920s and pre-WW1 Savage 1899s, so they acount for 19 of the 250-3000s. Add the Remington 660, 700 Classic, Ruger 77 RSI, 77 V, and 2 Winchester 70 Lightweight Carbines.

Jeff

Once a 1/4 bore whore, always a...

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
I was getting 2950+/- in the Ruger and 3050+/- in the Savage, but they were closer to max loads than I prefer to use...

Thanks for the info, Jeff. I have tried .250 AI in three barrels, one Hart, and two Douglas, and while I would discourage people from trying to match a 25/06 with it, I had no problems getting 3140 w/ 100gr bullets out of any of them. I could get 3400 w/ 75gr bullets, and 2940 w/ 117gr bullets. Not 25/06, but still gives a pretty good account of itself.

My 25-284 gives 3300+ with 100gr bullets, which truly is 25-06 performance. As it should be. They have just about the same powder capacity...

I wonder if the difference between my results and yours with the .250 AI was factory vs. match grade tubes?

Merry Christmas!

John

Remember that my Ruger has an 18.5" barrel and the Savage has a 22" barrel, so your barrel may have been both longer and faster. Also, I wasn't pushing the loads in the Savage 99, since I didn't want to have to discard cases are 1 or 2 uses.

I have played with a few customized rifle and have not found Hart/Shilen/air-gaged Douglas barrels to be consistantly faster than some factory and other after-market barrels. Better barrels are usually smoother and easier to clean, but I have come to the opinion that some barrels are just faster than others. OTOH, some barrels just plain suck. I had a couple of Ruger 77 RSI in 243 that were just 6 SNs apart. 1 was a good shooter, for a mannlicher stocked rifle, and the other patterned like a shotgun. I even slugged the barrel and remounted the poor shooter in a standard Ruger stock, but nothing worked. I couldn't sell it as it was and an inaccurate rifle is just a waste of time, so I had the barrel rebored/rerifled to 260. With the new bore it works fine. I don't know what the problem with it was, as the 243 bore wasn't oversized, maybe just a relief kink in the barrel that would unkink when it got warm.

My perspective of the 250AI distilles down to 2 words; "why bother?". Why bother with the 250AI when the 25 Souper or 257 Roberts will do the same job and may feed better? Why bother when the 257AI and 25-284 will give you more velocity and isn't velocity the key factor in going to an "AI" design?

Steve Timm and I have had this debate a couple of times. Steve's wife loves the 250AI and Steve says that he's never had a 284 based wildcat that would feed well. My counter-point is that I really like the 25-284 and have never had a problem getting any 285 based wildcat to feed in a bolt or lever action rifle. Different experiences = different opinions.

Jeff

quote:

Why bother when the 257AI and 25-284 will give you more velocity and isn't velocity the key factor in going to an "AI" design?

It's a common reason but I don't think that's the only reason. My motivation wanders to justify whatever rationalization deemed suitable. I can claim I want increase brass life, same velocity with more powder , better headspacing ...any thing I want or can make up. I could agree with you as well, but since I think the .250 AI is pretty much suitable to duplicate Bob in a short action, and I won't chamber Bob in a short action, well there you have it. Taking your logic to its ultimate end there is really only justification for 1 ea. rimfire, centerfire and shotgun chambering to exist. That is not an acceptable situation.

I guess I’m a bit of a heretic … velocity isn’t the only thing in which I’m interested. Most rounds I’ve fooled around with in the last 35 years worked most efficiently at about 80% - 85% of max (no real news here). I look at a lot of things manuals and chronographs don’t tell you. I like nostalgic rounds … 222 instead of 223; 7x57 instead of 7mm-08 or mag; 300 H&H instead of 300 Winchester or Ultra Mag. I’m not opposed to burning a few extra grains of powder for extra fps, if fps is what I’m after … usually it isn’t. I’m an old soldier and have been bludgeoned to death by what manuals, ballistic tables and statistics told me should/would/could be. Being a DAT (Dumb-Assed Tanker,) I realized after a few decades, that the ONLY thing that counts is to put the reticle on the target … squeeze … and if you’re worth a shit, you’ll hit it. Next, go look what the projectile did. If you like what happened, round-to-round dispersion, velocity variations and gun tube memory don’t mean squat. Accurate, means it goes where you want it. Fast, means you can’t see it (unless it has a tracer) while it gets there. Effective, means what ever you shot it at didn’t enjoy it at all. With this in mind, I bought my first 25-06 in 1968 and enjoyed it for years. The 250 AI I have, with the loads I’ve used, have performed every application better than my 25-06. Rifle weight, accuracy, bullet performance using identical bullets at similar velocities (this is one I can’t figure out,) recoil, and report. With all this said and done, I still took my Ruger #1 light sporter in 7x57 deer hunting this year. Oh well, variety is the spice of life. In tanker lingo, “25-06 good!†“250 Ackley, MORE GOOD!â€

Col K, I agree with your words, but still go both ways. And if you ain't Cav, you ain't...

CW2 Dan

1/9
2/17
7/17

All the way!

The World would be a dull place if we only had what we needed, rather than what we wanted, so if the 250AI moves you, well good for you! Maybe if you'd gone with the 25 Souper or 25-284 you'd be singing their praises instead, but all that matters is what moves you. Heck, I like shooting an occasional deer with a Winchester 100 and sometime shoot them with a 22-250. Not a rifle or cartridge for everybody, but they seem to work for me.

I'm an old CEB, AVLB, and 113A1 guy myself, talk about deadlined junk!

Jeff

I am getting 3050 or so with 100gr Sierra's. I haven't run the 100gr TSX's across the screens yet.

120's were doing 2850 or so and the 110gr Accubonds are doing 2935fps.

This is out of a 21" Douglas barrel. Fun cartridge.

After getting to fondle (too graphic?) one of the new Charles Daly left-hand mini-mauser actions that my gunsmith had received, I just had to have one. When it arrives (the one I "fondled" was spoken for), the boltface will be opened up, a .22-250 magazine and follower added from a right-hand mini (lefties only get the .223), and a .257 Lilja barrel chambered in the .250AI screwed on. Why? Just cuz.