I saw the "When to quit" thread the other day and I also have a fire arm that is a problem.

It is a 17 Hornaday Hornet, CZ.

Here is the story if I shoot a 5 shot group it will shoot 3 in a tight group and the other two will be an inch high and the other an inch to the right and low. Or some combination of flyer in some seemingly random deviation from the group.

I have loaded many combinations of powder charge and COAL. and when I think I have a load that will work I get flyers.

More information I have used two different powders AA 1680 and AA 5744. I have found promising loads with both powders and I always get approx. three in and flyers. Not always three good then flyers by the way. The barrel is free loaded I bedded the action.

I am going to try a different powder, but I don't think that is it.

I had a Kimber in 17 Ackley hornet. far and away it's favorite powder was IMR 4198.

Is it new? Has it ever shot good? I have a 223 M700 that had similar problems. Since I bought it used I didn't know what it's history was. Cleaned it, tuned the action, bedded it , restocked it and bedded it again, tried probably 50 different combinations of bullets and powders and nothing worked. Finally decided it had to be the barrel. Replaced the barrel and it shoots 1/2MOA all day long now.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
Is it new? Has it ever shot good? I have a 223 M700 that had similar problems. Since I bought it used I didn't know what it's history was. Cleaned it, tuned the action, bedded it , restocked it and bedded it again, tried probably 50 different combinations of bullets and powders and nothing worked. Finally decided it had to be the barrel. Replaced the barrel and it shoots 1/2MOA all day long now.

I think that's exactly the right way to proceed. But . . . I'm not anything that anyone would mistake for a gunsmith.

If you can do all this yourself, bless your heart. You're a better man than I.

Me? I'd have tried 50 different loads through it and, if it still didn't measure up, I'd then have given up and dumped it.

As a practical matter, and also as a matter of principle, I couldn't/wouldn't have paid a gunsmith the kind of money it would take to tune the action, bed it, restock it and bed it yet again.

But . . . were I a competent gunsmith (or a reasonable fac simile), AND I thrived on a challenge, I'd do everything I could to make it shoot. The fun would be in answering the challenge.

JFWIW.

Sounds like stresses in the barrel.

Have you tried shooting one shot, letting cool completely, shooting another shot, letting it cool, etc to see if the barrel heating up is causing the weird flyer?

More info. I also bought a 204 in the same CZ action, this rifle had the varmint barrel. I put this 204 in a Bell and Carlson stock and put the 17 hornet in that stock. The hornet does not have the varmint barrel so it has plenty of room in the former 204 stock.I put in pillars and glass bedded the rifle.

I will try some different bullets this weekend and see what happens.

Update. Since my last post I cleaned the barrel, used JB bore paste- the whole nine yards.

I also purchased some factory Hornaday ammunition. A box with 25 grain bullets and a box loaded with 20 grain bullets, which I have used before with poor results. So I start with the 25 grain factory loads and I was pleasantly surprised to actually have a group. I shot 10 times and can't quite cover them all with a quarter.




So I started to build some reloads and I decided to use 25 grain bullets.I found a load that is quite accurate and got to test it after work today on some local prairie dogs.


Needless to say I am a happy camper. I really enjoy this rifle and it is fun to watch prairie dogs tip over through the scope.

I will take a picture of the groups of my hand loaded ammunition when I get chance

Another update. So I have decided to quit at 3 shots. Something happens at shots 4 and 5 so I will be happy with 3 shot groups. When I shoot prairie dogs I don't shoot fast and furious anyway. Obviously there is some type of pressure change on the barrel when it heats up after three shots.

I can shoot this type of group all the time, but not 4 snd 5.




I'm happy, for now.

I have a similar problem but worse. My groups start growing after only one shot.

The most consistent and always reliable solution has been to find the gun a new home.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I have a similar problem but worse. My groups start growing after only one shot.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I have a similar problem but worse. My groups start growing after only one shot.

Haha Well said Sir..that may be a problem that a lot of people have

Ok this is it. I just can't help myself. I increased the COAL and I am getting good results.

It is just too much fun to shoot, I don't think I will ever quit on this one.

So I have increased the COAL. In the reloading books the COAL is 1.72 on the the factory ammo is basically this length so I went longer to 1.75 and I am getting good results. BUT a persistent pattern keeps occurring that maybe someone can speculate on.

I shoot five shots and I notice the first shot is to the right and low, and the other 4 shots are the group one dreams about. The photo below shows this phenomenon. With this combination of powder, bullet, and COAL - the first shot is right and the next 4 are a wonderful group. Weird

Have you checked the crown on the CZ? I use a good number of the 527's as platforms for sub-.22 caliber wildcats as well as some of the old reliable's like the .22 K-Hornet etc. On a few that I just shot as is from the factory I've found the crown lacking the perfection it takes to shoot really tiny groups.
If ya do decide to continue with a powder search and I agree with ya that powder probably isn't the issue...But, if ya do ya might try Accurate 2200. A number of folks including Hornady's original load data say that's the magic dust for the .17 Hornady Hornet. Of course they also say VV N120 isn't so hot and a large number of guys I know (me included) swear by it in the .17 Ackley Hornet and they are near ballistic twin cartridges. As we all know, "they like what they like".
That little .17 is a hoot ain't it ?
Ya see all the hits..... ....and the misses .
One a the things I became aware of years back with the .17's is that with the hole on paper being so small a group that would make ya giggle with a .22 or 6MM looks like a freakin pattern with those tiny .17 holes. I've taken to finding a load that's minute of, fill in the blank, P-Dog, Gopher, Rock-chuck Etc. and then go shooting. The .17's are real overachievers IMO.
My CZ .17 Hornady Hornet is the Varmint model.

I went 5 for 5 on a quick P dog excursion this morning. I agree those little holes make it look a little more of a spread. I have talked to a friend of mine about doing a recrown.

My current fix is to shoot a P dog at <100yrds. and then the next shots are right on the money. I love this gun and am going to save my money to by a Bell and Carlson stock.

I will have to look into AA 2200.

So mountdoug, and anyone else, do you have a secret sauce? I have settled on 25 gr. Berger bullet, 10 gr of AA 1680, and a COAL of 1.750. Would you please share your AA 2200 recipe.

Much appreciated.

Howdy Slim.
Truth be told, I haven't used 2200 yet. I'll try to give ya the short version.
When Hornady first brought out this round I ordered a CZ Varmint. I have .17 Ackley's and such so I needed it like a hole in the head but as a tip of the hat to Hornady for the round and CZ for making it I did.
When the first ammo hit the shelves I ordered a bunch of it to have when the rifle showed. Hornady had brass issues with that first batch and in fact if you ran your thumb across the bottom of the case it felt "dished in" and when fired some primers I'm told backed out a bit and looked like ya had a headspace problem. Seems Hornady's brass had tapered primer pockets, bad deal. (I'm sure all that has been resolved way back by-the-way).
Hornady's answer initially was to stake the primer pockets, my answer was to form 500 pieces of my own brass out of WW Hornet cases.
I should add that personally the factory ammo I bought had the dished feel but I never backed out any primers and the factory ammo shot like crazy.
So in answer to your question, with the 500 factory rounds with tapered primer pockets I had as well as the 500 WW cased rounds I had to fire-form I haven't reloaded any of the formed cases yet. I'm pretty well shot though the Winchester Fire-Form cases and my fire-form load for them is 11.2 grains of 1680 in the WW cases rough formed to a crush fit in the CZ using "Winchester Small Rifle" WSR primers with a "20 grain Varmint Nightmare X-Treme" bullet I bought a bunch of from Midsouth. Forms the cases great and shoots 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups and spreads gophers real well, shot that Chuck with one as well.
The round on the right is a case ready to form and the fired case on the left is a fired, formed and ready to reload WW case. The little feet are a toasted gopher (Richardson Ground Squirrel).



I'd a had more information for ya by now Slim but I'm easily distracted by new projects. The one that took me away from the .17 Hornady Hornet is this, but it's another story . It's obviously another CZ 527 which coincidentally started out as a .17 Hornady Hornet.



I just love these little rat spreaders

Yo Slim.
Here's a link to Western Powders load data. Thought you might wanna seen how they view load data for both their (IMO, better) "Accurate" powders for the .17 Hornet, 1680 and 2200. They sell em both so they got no dog in the fight as to which one's best.

Wester Powders load data.

Most any factory rifle will shoot considerably better glass bedded. If one shoots great right out of the box then don't mess with it, but if its not up to your specs have it glass bedded or glass bed it yourself if your handy..