Gentlemen:

Assume a light mountain mule deer rifle with a 20.5" barrel. Which of the above cartridges [.260 Rem, 7mm-08, or .25-08 (i.e., .25 Souper)] makes a better 300-400 yard rifle? Another way of putting it is: given the parameters of light rifle weight and short barrel, which cartridge delivers the most knock-down power with the flattest trajectory out to 400 yards? I am becoming more and more impressed with the .260 Rem. Curious what an improved version might do in a 20" tube. The 7mm-08 launching a 120 grain Nosler, or 130 grain Barnes [if they will group---a big "if"] seems like a nice combo. I don't think a .25 cal, even on an improved .308 case can launch a 115 grain bullet to 3000 in a short tube, even though I love the quarter bore.

What say you?

Thanks in advance for tolerating my dumb questions!

Jordan

Jordan,
I seriously am very fond of my 260 Rem, but I recognize that it is very short on energy beyond 250 - 300 yd.
I will use my 264 Win or 7mm STW for any extended range shots.
My recomendation for a 400 yd mule deer rifle would be 270, 280, 7mm Rem Mag, or 30-06.
"which cartridge delivers the most knock-down power with the flattest trajectory out to 400 yards?" These needs are mutually exclusive, the loads with the most knock down power use the heaviest bullets and the loads with the flattest trajectory use the lightest bullets.
The 25-08 with a 100 gr bt will be the flattest shooter, but at 400 yd I would consider it good only as a coyote load.
The 7mm-08 with a 160 gr bullet would be most likely, of the cartridges you mentioned, to anchor a 400 lb muley buck at extended range, but it is not a flat shooter.
The Nosler #4 manual shows loads for the 7-08 close to 2800 fps using the 160 gr partition. This bullet if sighted in 4.4 in high at 100 yd, will be 5.2 in high at 200 yd, zeroed at 300 yd, and 12 in low at 400 yd with a remaining energy level of 1536 ft/lbs.
Any cartridge which could give you a 200 fps increase in MV will bring that terminal energy level up to 1795 ft/lb. This is a 17% increase and should be attainable with the 280 Rem and tuned hand loads.
Worded in another manner, the 280 has as much bullet energy at 500 yd as the 7-08 has at 400 yd.
The 280 extends the maximum lethal range of the bullet by 100 yd over the 7-08. And the 7mm Rem Mag extends that range by another 50 yd beyond the 280.
You mention the use of the Nosler 120 gr bullet in the 7-08, their manual shows a load at 3200 fps. But at 400 yd the velocity has dropped to 2316 fps which gives that bullet only 1429 ft/lbs of terminal energy.

Jordan

I dont know how big or tough your mule deer are or what velocities you will get out of the short barrel but out to 400 yards I think the 7mm-08 would be up to the task but with heavier bullets than 120 to 130 grains,i'de stick to 140 or 150 grain premium game bullets,sure you trajectory wont be quite as flat as the lighter bullets but you will have more retained energy at 400 yards,if you can get a muzzle velocity of 2500 ft per second out of that length barrel you will still have over 1000ft pounds of energy at 400 yards with a 140 grain bullet,which should be sufficient for your task.

Personally I'de be looking for a light weight rifle with a longer barrel,at least 22 inches & preferably 24 inches.

I also think you would be wasting your time trying to improve any of these cartridges with a short barrel like that as any extra powder would be burned after the bullet leaves the barrel,i'm not an expert though & could be wrong.

Anyhow good luck with whatever you get.

Tumbo

140 gr in 6.5 with hight BC hold more energy at long range than the 160 gr in 7 mm

6.5/08 AI can deliver good velocity in short barrel.

good shoting
DAN TEC

Jorden~

Ive been pondering this question for a few monthes now as im considering my "Perfect rifle"

I finaly decided on a .260 AI or 6.5-08 AI the latter dies are availbe........

It will kill far beyond it modest recoil and meger powder charge in effect it will give the most for the lest, its not "under powdered" nor is it "more than required"

How ever im considering a medium/heavy barrel 20"-24" for an all round hunter/range rifle.........

How ever after enquiring as to the cost with gunsmiths here are just silly ! I may end up going with a Sako varmint in 6.5x55 or 7mm-08 and simply get it Ackley improved thus saving HUGE sum of cash and still getting a first rate rifle...........

The real beauty of 6.5 mm bullets is they do not need to be pushed at real high velocity to give excellant kills. There is a train of thought that 2200 f.p.s - 2400 f.p.s give the optimun killing performance with 6.5mm bullets and any thing more is simply not required........saving on recoil and of course aiding accuracy............

Good luck with what ever you choose.

Englander

if you must have a short case and you can live with a 22" minimum tube then i vote for the 6.5/284. custom dies or such. brass is ready to neck and load from norma. load info out the wazzou.......
easy 400 yard cartridge.
JMHO
woofer

Depends how light light is! For the most power a WSM short magnum is going to win easily. If the barrel contour must be a featherweight then a smaller case would be indicated.

I am going to get a 20" .308 Win and a 22" WSM and both will be light. I don't think the .284 case will be around much longer not that it ever was.

Right now the .300 WSM is my default cartridge and I am waiting to see how the other new ones shake out. The thing is that a WSM can be handloaded to real magnum performance and since it's a short action cartridge it can be loaded with very light loads also. Might as well pick the big one and load it down. You can't load them up over what they are now.

I love the 7-08 and have a herd of them.

But as an aside,a short barreled 25-284 will push 100's to 3200fps. My favorite 100 for critters is the XLC and it has a BC of .420.

That bullet zeroed at 200yds,drops but 16.25" at 400yds and retains 1333ft lbs of energy and 2450fps of velocity.

She'll make 1000ftlbs of energy to the 600yd line and the bullet is still over 2100fps. It's only 55" low at that range,with the aforementioned 200yd zero.

In a lightweight,fast handling rifle,it is my favorite chambering. That due to it's raw performance capabilities and terminal affects upon Game. It shoots very flat,kicks very little and kills stuff very dead.

A hard combo not to like...............

I like the 260 out of the three. I would use 120 grain xlc's. the recoil is almost non existent and it flies flat. don't worry about energy figures. if energy figures were important the 6.5X55 swede would have died a long time a go. either way, i wouldn't consider the 25 caliber when the 6.5 and 7mm are in the running. in reply to the 7mm's having higher bc's. that is not true. yes, a bullet might come out with a higher bc, but that will be just one bullet and that bullet probaly wouldn't be available in 6.5

7-08 AI 20 inch barrel= 2970fps =1310 foot pounds at 500 yards not a problem for any deer! Matter of fact at 300yrds it kills elk very well. Also has killed Black bear at that range also. In the proper hands it is amazing what it can kill. Bullet choice is very important!

My 7mm-08 is a 14" pistol, it is amazing. 140gr at 2700 fps. Go with the 7mm-08.

Of the three choices listed, I'd go with the 7mm-08, closely followed by the 260, and the 25-08 a distant third.

I surely hope that there are not any gun rag writers out there reading this. If there is we may have to endure 25 years or so of rerun articles about which one is better just like we have the 270vs280vs06!

While one can certainly make a case for each of the rounds in reality to me there is not any real difference between them. Perhaps we all may have our favorites for whatever reason, but in the real world of hunting there just isn't enough difference to even think about.

So lets stop nitpiking-grab the lady that turns your crank and take her to the dance!

"GET TO THE HILL"

Dog

Jordan,
The 7-08 Rem has it hands down. There are several rifles in the Light category already being made.
With 140-150 gr bullets in a 22" barrel one can acheive 2700+ fps. With the 18 1/2" barrel a hundred feet per second less. With the rifle sighted for a 300 yd zero, it shoots 5" high at 100yds, about 6" high at 200yds, dead on at 300yds and about 14" low at 400 yds. If one holds a little low at the closer ranges this cartridge and sighting distance will do it all.
Also, after living in MT for more than 25 years and having shot 50+ head of Antelope and Mule Deer, shooting at 400 yds in the field is a job. Not unheard of, mind you, but hitting consistently at this range is done from the prone position or with a bipod (which adds about a pound to the rifle) or occasionally with just dumb luck. An Antelope or Mule Deer gets pretty small at 400 yds.
In fact, I must say that I have never bagged an animal farther than 350 yards. I have only shot one animal at this range...a large mule deer buck in the open. I used sand bags from my truck which was parked in a large open area. No way to sneak up. Anyway, just like shooting at the range.
Also, the 7-08 has great resale value, especially out here. Its a great first gun for kids or the wife......gotta get 'em interested too .
Anyway, Great Shooting,
The Bearman out in the Big Sky Country

Thanks to all for the valuable experience and information.

Jordan

I don't know of a single deer that has been killed by a Ballistic Co-Efficient!

Probably the poorest factor to base your hunting load on. Sure, it is important to a degree, but we're talking minor differences at long range. Obviously not semi-spitzer vs. boat tail, but like the differnce between .480 & .500. I'll take bullet construction, sectional density, accuracy, and impact velocity over the highest BC any day!

Jordon

I have had sucess with the 260.
I shoot a Rem Model 700 w/ factory Speer GS
140gr. What happens w/ whitetail is I keep
getting complete penetration w/ lots of blood. I own a Sako 7/08 <for sale in clas. forum>
but I have not hunted with it.
The 260 seems like a light cal. to me so I
am impressed everytime it works.
I know that the 7/08 will extend your reach.
I use the 260 in thick Miss. River bottomland.
Ranges from 25-175 yards.
BOL
Edward

infosponge,
the 140gr. 6.5 sst's have higher bc's, and most of those bullets you named aren't made in 6.5 like i said. don't get your panties in a wad because you have to defend your 7mm bullet. if i were going to chose out of the three cartridges listed it would be a 260., but if i could choose out of the three calibers it would be the 25, speed kills, if i want bigger i would go 30 cal. where they smeer the 7mm in everything.

Well, except under very good conditions, 400 yards is too far to take shots as game IMO...at some point you become a shooter, and a wounder of game as the distance increases...

The better shot is the more likly to wound an animal at extreme distances...Therein lies the problem...At 400 yards you are definately in the magnum catagory calibers such as the the 300's. You at least owe that much to the animal if your going to take those risky shots...

I would cut it to 300 yards and choose the 270, as it loses little velocity with a short barrel for some reason....Another is the time honored 7x57 (handloaded) or 280 and the reliable 30-06....

Any caliber less than .284 would be less desirable at 300 yards because blood trails deminish with cross section of bullet IMO...actually I like a 30 caliber for that reason..