Where is the best value-for-dollar in rifles these days, not including magnums? I'm thinking about getting something in 6mm. The criteria I am interested in include:

- quality control
- ease of field stripping
- availability of service.

I remember in about 1993 listening to a counter salesman saying one of the big-three US manufacturers was down in quality, but he refused to say which one. I have always thought his "loyalty" (as he described it) was stupid and misplaced. He set himself up to be mistrusted. After that he couldn't have sold anything to me.

if your looking for a tack driver that can be easyly stripped down both for cleaning and for transport

a blaser r93 bolt action is probably one of your best choises. they garuntee 1 moa or better at 100 yards on all there barrels

Stevens 200 in .243 roger

I would look at the Savage classic 14 in a 243

One might want to look at the Howa.....

Consider the merits of a T/C Encore in 243 Winchester before you decide on a bolt gun http://www.tcarms.com/TC_HTML/TC_Enc.htm

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Stevens 200 in .243 roger

I have a Stevens shotgun I bought in 1968. Nothing about it recommends me to the brand name. What am I missing?

quote:

I have a Stevens shotgun I bought in 1968. Nothing about it recommends me to the brand name. What am I missing?

A whole helluva lot has changed since 1968

The Stevens bolt rifle is a pretty good gun.

Tikka.

I would go with a 25, either a Roberts or a 25,06. I like most any rifle, but a mauser or a model 70 are the ones I usualy go to.
If you can find a nice sako it would likly shoot, a Howa an old FN if you can find one,
Rugers are inconsistant but most good enough, remingtons are good too but not my style...tj3006

How does Browning stack up in comparison to others?

As to caliber, I like the .260rem for a nice combo gun. Not mych recoil for varmints w/ 85-95gr bullets & to me, a much better deer/antelope round w/ 120-140gr bullets. Rifles are like trucks, Ford or Chevy, take your pick. Savage offers an ugly but accurate rifle a good price. I prefer M70 but those are now getting scarce, nothing wrong w/ Rem. or Ruger either.

I can't say there is anything wrong with brownins A-Bolt, But I just don't like them.
I admit the last ones i saw at the trange were very good shooter, Again I just don't like them. If you can find an Old FN or belgian built browning or a sako browning hop on it.
...tj3006

Remington 700.

Very accurate.....


Reloader

I'd say either a long action Remington 700 in 25-06 or a short action Remington 700(or model7) in 260Rem would be a better choice than a 6mm rifle.

Honestly, I'd lean a bit towards recommending the 260Rem
though if I were looking at the same choice myself I'd probably go with the 25-06Rem, but that's mostly because I've owned two 25-06's in the past and already have dies and a supply of virgin brass....

If you decide you want a 6mmRem have it built.
Most MFG's build the 6mmRem on a short (308length)
action and it really doesn't work well on a short action...

AllanD

I have 2 short action 6MMs and can't see how a long action would contribute any meaningful advantage. Both of my 6MMs are 20" barreled Remingtons, a 660 and a very early 700 that is marked "6mm Rem Mag" with the "Mag" x'd out. I think that the short action's magazine will handle any of the current 100 grain component bullets that are available without requiring them to be loaded below the bottom of the case neck.

Jeff

Value for dollar doesn't necessarily mean inexspnsive. I believe that Kimber has a good value to dollar ratio. To my mind a 84M in 243 or 25-06 would be perfect. Lou

The only thing I can say is that the guys touting the higher dollar rifles don't have much experience with the sanely priced mod. 200 Stevens. I must addmitt the Stevens has no snob allure.The Stevens is completely Utilitarian and shots good.Probably one of the best buys I've made since I bought the brand new 36 MAS. roger

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
I have 2 short action 6MMs and can't see how a long action would contribute any meaningful advantage. Both of my 6MMs are 20" barreled Remingtons, a 660 and a very early 700 that is marked "6mm Rem Mag" with the "Mag" x'd out. I think that the short action's magazine will handle any of the current 100 grain component bullets that are available without requiring them to be loaded below the bottom of the case neck.

Jeff

The issue isn't so much the magazine length as it is the long weatherby like freebore that was designed to accept the roundnose 105gr bullets
that were available when the cartridge was originally redesigned from the 244Rem.

The issue I had with a remington varminter was that 70gr noslers seated to best accuracy (0.025" from the lands) were too long to fit in the magazine.

So ever since I've wanted a long action rem700 in 6mmRem.

BTW, the original "long action" was designed around the 7x57 and 8x57 cartridge.
the 6mmRem is a member of that same family....
It is just as accurately described as a 6x57.

So I don't see what's so unreasonable about wanting one in a long action?

AllanD

Rather than opt for a long action, why wouldn't you just have a barrel cut with a throat specific to the bullet that you intend to use? Plus, you could opt for a slower twist that would be more in sync with a 70 grain bullet. Factory rifles are a combination of compromise, intended to accomodate the greatest number of users. Sort of a jack of all trades, but a master of none.

Actually, I was aware the the 6mm Rem's parent case is the 8x57, 7x57, and 257 Roberts. The 8x57 and 7x57 clearly needed a longer action because of the longer bullets that they typically use, but the 257 Roberts seems to function fine in a short action. While it is true that you can load the bullets out farther in a long action, doing so doesn't gain enough case capacity to make a meaningful difference in field performance that I can see.

Jeff

Well owning a batch of 243s and one 6mm Rem, based on a long action Model 700, I can tell you, a long throated 6mm Rem on a long action is head and shoulders above a short action 243, by 250 to 300 fps or better with some bullet weights...

on a short action, with anything but varmint bullets, a 6mm Rem offers nothing over a 243...

But as I posted on another thread you guys were discussing this....

75 grain HPs, 3750 fps out of a 24 inch barrel... 90 grain SPs at 3400 or better, and 3250fps for a 115 grain Berger....

With all of these loads, I have reloaded Winchester and Remington 6mm cases ten times befoe the cases go south... and that is with the case bodies or the necks finally splitting, not the primer pocket becoming loose, so the pressure is not out of line....

a 243 or a 6mm Rem on a short action won't give those velocities...

and the one in 7 twist, stabilizes any bullet you want to shoot thru it...

The finished product, yielded the exact results I was expecting... better performance that a 243, and equal to, if not better than, the 240 Weatherby or the 25/06.....


And that's a fact, Jack!

While I've not been a fan of the .243W, todays bullets do seem to have improved it's abilities in my eyes.

My first thought when someone asks this is always the .257 Roberts. With a modern action it can (and should) be loaded to the same pressures as other modern rounds. I have used the 75gr. HP's quite successfully on 'yotes, and other vermin, and still been able to load and use the 100gr and up for deer with very good results. It's recoil is minimal, and performance is plenty!

I'm sure the .243W would be fine as a dual role rifle, it's not my first thought by any means. Nate

When I build a rifle, I typically build it with a specific purpose and bullet weight in mind. It would seem to me that a 1 in 7" twist in a .243" bore barrel would be too quick a twist for optimal accuracy potential from a 70 grain bullet. According to the Greenhill Formula, a 1 in 7" rate of twist would be optimal for a .243" bullet that is 1.265" long and I don't know of any 70 grain .243" bore bullets that are anywhere near that long.

I also can't see how you can safely reach 240 Roy velocities with a long action 6MM Rem, if all other factors remain equal, (pressure level/bullet weight/barrel length) given that the 240 Roy has 18% more case capacity. The same rational applies to the 25-06 with its 20% greater case capacity. A 20% increase in case capacity should offer the potential for about a 5% gain in velocity with equal pressures.

My reloading philosophy runs more toward accuracy and balance than toward achieving maximum velocity.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
According to the Greenhill Formula, a 1 in 7" rate of twist would be optimal for a .243" bullet that is 1.265" long and I don't know of any 70 grain .243" bore bullets that are anywhere near that long.

What is the "Greenhill Formula," please?

I have an M77Mk2 in .257 Roberts, it was a 1.25" inch grouper with factory Win 117+P loads from the box. A trigger tweak, a barrel float and it is currently running 100 grain bullets out it's 22" barrel at 3100+, that's Noslers, Hornadys or Barnes TSX's they are all under an inch, the TSX's nearer 1/2 at 100. I am currently working 75 grain Vmax loads and am at about 3550 and at the 1" mark. It's been hard to find a "bad" load for this gun, I am quite surprised at it's ability to shoot nearly everything I feed it well. For me the .25's are superior medium game rifles to the 6mm's and the 6mm"s superior varmint rifles to the .257's. Both will do the job certainly if it was more deer I'd go .257 and if it was more varmints I'd go 6mm Rem or .243.

The .25-06 is NEVER a bad choice for a dual purpose rifle, a tad heavy on the powder for majority varminting.

The Greenhill Formula is the calculation to determine the optimal rate of twist for a particular length and diameter bullet.

T = (150 x (D x D))/L

T = Twist (in inches)
D = Diameter of the Bullet (in inches)
L = Length of the Bullet (in inches)

So, if you know the value of 2 of the 3 variables; D, L, or T, you can calculate the optimal value of the unknown variable.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:


Most MFG's build the 6mmRem on a short (308length)
action and it really doesn't work well on a short action...

Sorry, but I don't agree. I have a 6mm Remington on a short action Remington 700, and it works quite well; in fact, it has been at times my most accurate rifle, and it will handle all 6mm bullet weights.

I think a 6mm Remington or a 243 Winchester would be a perfect answer to your question. I actually think the 6mm Rem is slightly better, but they are becoming rare now and ammo for them is harder to find, whereas every rifle manufacturer makes a .243 Winchester and ammo is abundant, so I'd recommend the .243 Winchester as your cartridge. There isn't a deer alive in the world that could not be successfully taken with it, given good shot placement, and with lighter bullets it is among the best varmint cartridges ever invented. It has also accounted for a number of black bears and other larger species.

I would go with a Remington 700 for the rifle -- I think it's the best factory rifle available now except possibly the over $1500 ones. It's better in my opinion than Winchester (now no longer made), Savage, Stevens, (although today's Savage and Stevens bolt action rifles will sometimes give better accuracy), Browning, Tikka, Weatherby, Howa, Blaser, the various Mausers, Ruger, or the others mentioned here.

If you want it for both varmint and deer hunting, do not get a heavy barreled rifle because it's too heavy for carrying in the field. If you are going only for varmint hunting and target shooting, then the heavy barreled one is better because it will tend to give better accuracy, and for longer strings of shots.

Go with a .257 bore ... .250 Sav, .257 Bob, 25-06 they are all good. I'd say the Bob for style, 25-06 for utility if you buy ammo off the shelf. The Stevens 200 is nothing to sneeze at if you can stand the tupperware.

Dad always swore by the 25-06 as the ultimate Great Plains Rifle. P Dogs, Fox, Yodelers, Speed Goats, Deer of about any sort ... Seems like I got my first at 15 and have always owned about two at a time since ...

Maybe a bit much powder burn if you are really mad at a mess of P Dogs ... otherwise a very practical combo cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:
Sorry, but I don't agree. I have a 6mm Remington on a short action Remington 700, and it works quite well; in fact, it has been at times my most accurate rifle, and it will handle all 6mm bullet weights.


I would go with a Remington 700 for the rifle --I think it's the best factory rifle available

Lloyd,

My issue with my Remington Varminter was that 70gr Noslers seated out for best accuracy wouldn't feed through the magazine.

the issue is that on most 6mmRem barrels the barrels are throated for the long straight sided
round nose 105gr bullets, if Remington didn't throat the 6mmRem for bullets that nobody has used for 35+ years the action length wouldn't be an issue.

Lose the "weatherby style" throat and a short action is tolerable.

I will add that the 6mmRem is essentially a necked down 7x57 or a 257Rob and the 7x57 is the round on which the long action length was based.... so why shouldn't a 6mmRem be made in a long action?

So if I have another 6mmRem it'll probably be built on a rem700 Long action and in addition will probably be an aftermarket barrel.
(Yeah! I need an excuse to finally buy a Lilja 3groove barrel

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
When I build a rifle, I typically build it with a specific purpose and bullet weight in mind. It would seem to me that a 1 in 7" twist in a .243" bore barrel would be too quick a twist for optimal accuracy potential from a 70 grain bullet. According to the Greenhill Formula, a 1 in 7" rate of twist would be optimal for a .243" bullet that is 1.265" long and I don't know of any 70 grain .243" bore bullets that are anywhere near that long.

I also can't see how you can safely reach 240 Roy velocities with a long action 6MM Rem, if all other factors remain equal, (pressure level/bullet weight/barrel length) given that the 240 Roy has 18% more case capacity. The same rational applies to the 25-06 with its 20% greater case capacity. A 20% increase in case capacity should offer the potential for about a 5% gain in velocity with equal pressures.

My reloading philosophy runs more toward accuracy and balance than toward achieving maximum velocity.

Jeff

Well with two questions there....

the one about the 240 Weatherby and the 25/06 having more capacity... dimenishing returns...
The exact same reason that a 270 Weatherby needs 21% more powder to achieve 6% more velocity than a 270 winchester.... or why a handloader can easily achieve 7 Rem Mag velocity out of a 280 with most bullet weights....

As far as a one in 7 twist... I don't shoot a lot of 70 grain bullets... but I can tell you that it has proven very accurate with 55 grain Ballistic tips, 60 grain Sierra HPs, 58 and 65 grain V Maxes, 75 grain HPs from Sierra and Hornady, 80 grain Ballistic Tips, 80 grain Winchester SPs, 80 grain Remington HPs and SPs, 85 grain Sierras and Speers, 87 grain SP and HP Hornadys, 90 grain SP Speers and 90 grain Ballistic tips, 95 grain ballistic tips, all 100 grain bullets, the 105 grain Speer SP, the 105 grain AMax, and the 105 and 115 grain Bergers.....

Beyond those, I don't have any experience I can share if the one in 7 twist is too much for the bullet or not....

The only reason that I specifically looked at 70 grain bullets is because you had indicated that you preferred a long action 6mm Rem because a 70 grain bullet couldn't be seated out far enough to prevent it from jumping to the rifling in a short action. I (incorrectly) assumed that a 70 grain bullet was a key factor in your decision to install a 1 in 7" twist barrel on your long action 6mm.

Your reloading routine and use of a rifle appears far different than mine. I usually develope only 1 or 2 loads for each rifle and I develope the loads around the bullet and the intended game. You appear to have used 20+/- bullet in a single rifle, which is something that I don't ever recall having done. I can't see how any rifle can hope to reach its accuracy potential using so wide a variety of bullets, everything from short 55 grain BTs to long 115 grain Bergers.

I usually have multiple rifles for most of the 46 cf cartridges that I reload for, so that I can tailor the rifle and bullet to match the intended game. For example, I have a quick twist 22-250 specifically designed around the 60 grain Partition for shooting whitetails and a slower twist 22-250 intended for use on varmints with a 55 grain BT. I am currently in the process of building a dedicated 25 WSSM pdog rifle and have opted for a 1 in 14" twist barrel because the bullet that I am working around is the 75 grain VMax.

My whole reloading routine is built around a philosophy of finding the best balance of velocity and accuracy for a bullet that will provide suitable penetration for the intended game. Velocity without accuracy is just a fast miss and accuracy without velocity means suboptimal maximum range potential. Likewise, an accurate bullet that fails to expand, or over-expands, in the intended game provides unacceptable suboptimal performance.

As I see it, balance of the 3 critical components of velocity, accuracy, and penetration is the key, with maximum velocity being the least important of the 3.

Jeff

260RG:

This 6mm Rem I have was really put together as a test rifle, to actually see what the cartridge would do... The barrel was a low cost Pac Nor Blemish barrel, in stainless steel...so the barrel, bored, chambered etc, had me invested for like $175.00 total...The boyd's stock was $89.00 or so, and I pull them off the rifle time to time and sell them, when I want something new...

A lot of my handloading has to do with testing rounds, loads etc....

When I find something that is outstanding, I tend to keep with it....

This rifle really shines with a load of 47.5 grains of H 414 with a 75 grain HP Hornady.. this is the most accurate load of ANYthing I have tested in any of my rifles.....So it shoots this load out sage rat shooting.. but I only put about 50 rounds thru it and that rifle calls it a day....and that is done for those real real long shots over the course or 5 or 6 hours...so barrel heating isn't a problem...

I do also carry it out deer hunting, but that load is a 100 grain SMP Sierra with an MV of about 2850... The load is real accurate, recoil is less than a 243, since the rifle is a little on the heavy side, with a Heavy Magnum contour barrel.... the load for that is 35 grains of IMR 4895....

But once in a while, I get a bug up my fanny and will load up another load or two for load testing to see what it will do.. I think the barrel has had about 3000 rounds down it since it was new....

But when this combo goes south, I will replace the barrel with the same thing... and actually the stock is going to get changed from a brown laminate to a gray thumbhole laminate....

I just want to know the parameters of a rifle and caliber combo that I consider being one I would like....I see what they do on the high end, and actually spend more time seeing what they do on the low end of the velocity scale...

I tend to find a lot of accepted "truths" not to be so true....So NOW I "know the rest of the story' as Paul Harvey says...

cheers
seafire

I'm not a big .243" guy and only have the 2 rifles in 6mm Rem because the 660 was a gift from my Father nearly 40 years ago and the 700 has that unusual "6MM REM MAG" barrel stamp. I do have a couple 243s because I collect Ruger 77 RSIs and unusual Savage 99s, plus 4 Winchester 70s in 243 WSSM.

I have shot a few whitetails with them, but mostly with Federal 80 grain and the Winchester 95 grain SBT factory loads. I got a deal on several hundred rounds in a mixed lot Federal ammo a decade ago and felt obligated to shoot something besides paper with it. The only after-market bullets that I have shot deer with in the .243" are the 85 grain Barnes X, 85 grain Sierra HPBT, 95 grain SBT, and 95 grain Partition.

I'm surprised that a 1 in 7" twist barrel would shoot the shorter/lighter bullet so well, but I've had 1 in 14" twist barrels in 250-3000 that would shoot 117 grain Hornady RNs pretty well, even if they were theoretically too long to shoot that well.

Jeff

CZ550 7x57.

Any CZ if it's in the caliber of your choice.

CZ Link

Use the "Product specification" pulldown menu to view the different calibers.

Don't pay any attention to the "MSRP"

700 cdl 25.06

I think if I were doing it with a factory rifle, I'd take a hard look at the Ruger M77 MkII in 257 Roberts, in either Standard or Ultralight. I didn't care for my Ruger 6.5x55 and sold it, but the reason had nothing to do with accuracy - it was, simply, the most accurate (non-varmint) rifle I've ever owned.

I only shot five-shot groups or more, and I averaged under an inch for, what 600 rounds? Using a Weaver 4X scope at 100 yards, I once shot (well above my head, btw) four of five shots into .26", with the next group four of five shots into .31". (Okay, the fifth shot of each "opened" each group to .75", but that likely wan't the rifle's fault.}

Triggers are cheap to have fixed - and need it.

Barrels are really excellent and feel lapped (but aren't). Fifty shot between cleaning, and three patches cleaned it - a dirty one, a gray one, and a clean one.

I didn't care fot the rough feel of the bolt and an annoying vibration throughout the rifle on hammerfall. Personal issues, but more important to me than the accuracy. YMMV.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by BBBruce:
I'm thinking about getting something in 6mm. The criteria I am interested in include:

- quality control
- ease of field stripping
- availability of service.

Seriously, consider a .25-06. They shoot really flat for vermin, have better energy for deer hunting, and recoil is not much more than the 6mms.

Lofter, love your CDL, I have one in 25-06 that I punched out to AI. Nice Rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
The only thing I can say is that the guys touting the higher dollar rifles don't have much experience with the sanely priced mod. 200 Stevens. I must addmitt the Stevens has no snob allure.The Stevens is completely Utilitarian and shots good.Probably one of the best buys I've made since I bought the brand new 36 MAS. roger

I'll ditto the raves of the Stevens 200 in .243.

Mine out of the box shoots 1/2 MOA with reloads for a $252 price tag, and I can easily change calibers by rebarreling in my garage.

Buy the Stevens and keep a bunch of cash in your pocket.