Remington has announced the 700 Mt. Rifle will B chambered in the 221 Fireball. Due out in Sept.

2 Day Is the 1st day of the rest of your LIFE

No thanks, I will wait for the CZ 527 that is due out this fall.

More Powder/More Dead: Thanks for the information! Where did you hear it? I have been so happy with my Remington 700 Classic in 221 Fireball! It is very accurate and handsome. When I first ordered it I was intent on replacing the "J" lock but it is not as obtrusive as I was expecting especially once the scope was mounted on it.
Do you have any of the dimensions, barrel lengths or stock options for the Mountain Rifle? Thanks for any further information!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Crowrifle: Have you heard the term "Buy American"! I hope you reconsider buying the CZ for this reason alone. If that does not push your button then how about the fact the Remington will be a lot more likely to shoot well! And if that is not reason enough then how about supporting THE company that invented the wonderful little Fireball cartridge in the first place. What dynamic cartridge has the CZ company brought onto the shooting scene recently? I do not know how the economy is down there in NC but here in Montana folks really go out of their way to buy American and I fully concur with them and have for decades!
Buy American! But good luck with the CZ if you go that way.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy
I am a Rem man myself, mostly X-P'SS'S 40X's and 700 Shorts. And i do agree with you 100% about buying American, but there is a part of me that just cannot resist the Quality Optics of Swarovski, Kahles and Zeiss, believe me i've owned and hunted with most all the American made Optics and i just cant help myself, The PH Swarovski Optics i own are THE brightest, clearest most clean tracking scopes i have ever seen. If only they would move their operation over here. I know you must think me a traitor but i am a Commercial Fur hunter and its how i pay the bills in the Winter! Believe me i dont like the idea of spending my hard earned money outside the great USA, I just wish the American optics were up to speed with Swarovski.

Blaine E: At one time in the 50's and 60's Americans made sensational lenses and optics (Bausch & Lomb, Unertl and others) I can not figure why our countries industry can not compete with foreign lens glass anymore. Costs?
I still use top quality glass from those decades in a couple of my Varminters and from my jumbo inventory of Rochester, N.Y. made Bausch & Lomb Zephyr binoculars. They are simply as good as any Zeiss I have used (quality, clarity, absence of eye strain and ruggedness). Shame the quality has gone down noticeably in American made optics!
Having said that Blaine, I bring to bag quite a few Coyotes and Fox each year using Leupold scopes. I just sold my last Zeiss optic at a Gunshow in Missoula, Montana last month. I do not feel handicapped one bit Hunting Predators day and night year around with any of my Leupolds! Do you actually feel the Euro-optics enhance your brought to bag count of Varmints over top of the line American optics?
Buy American and write threatening letters to American executives if need be!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I buy quality and accuracy, which is why I buy CZ. That certainly does not make me unAmerican! Tom Purdom

My dollars are hard earned. I try to get the most I can for each dollar spent. I looked at the Remington Classic long and hard, because I really wanted a .221. I already owned a .222 model 700 and a TC Contender carbine in .22 Hornet and thought the .221 would fill the gap between the two nicely. I went back to examine the Remington several times, but I could not get past the price tag for that level craftsmanship. I looked at a CZ American 527 in .22 Hornet beside it and was very impressed with quality and price so I decided to try the CZ. I have to say it is one sweet little package. I have quite a bit less invested in the CZ and a Bushnell 6x18 than the list price for the Remington.
VarmitGuy, no one posting here is more patriotic that I, and I try to support domestic companies when ever possible. After all Remington is located in Madison, NC. But when unions, MBA's and trial lawyers make it impossible to produce a quality product at a competitive price I will use my buying power to send the loudest message possible.

[ 05-02-2003, 16:03: Message edited by: crowrifle ]

Varmintguy
My partner Rick and I peeled 192 Prime Coyotes this past Fur Season, and yes! I feel i had an edge or advantage with my Swarovski and Zeiss optics. I have no need to write threatening letters as you put it! I just state the Facts! I also have Jewell Triggers on ALL my Remingtons, thank God they are American made right?

I have several Remingtons.

However, CZ's have never given me problems with extraction, ejection, fast fouling barrels, poor fit and finish, and sloppy chambers like the Rems have. I like the triggers on the CZ's more than the Rem 700's too.

IMHO It is a shame that Remington, will not produce a product with the same quality and price range as some Non US made rifles.

I'd rather have one CZ than all the Remington's I could carry in one trip. I DON'T buy junk, no matter who makes it.

I hate commenting on these types of posts, but I felt compelled to this time. As I'm sure we are all steadfast Americans and love promoting our country above all others, be realistic with yourself. Before you say that you only buy American, just look around your house. Do you have a TV? Do you have toaster? Then you buy imported goods. How does that differ from buying a rifle?
Personally, I buy the best I can afford, regardless of the maker. Most of the time it's usually the Rems or Wins, but if someone wanted to sell me a CZ for $300, I would be all over it. Believe it or not, nearly everytime you spend a dollar you're putting money into some American's pocket. So, indirectly you are still supporting the American economy.
One more thing, guns are great! What's wrong with having as many different ones as possible? What a fantastic hobby we all enjoy.

Sorry I mentioned it!!!!!!!!

Well...you know as well as i do that the steel in most of the "american made " guns are not even american steel. The gun companies do just like the rest of us and buy what makes them money or what they can afford. Even Harly Davidsons have jap parts on them.

As for the 221....i have to ask why. If you look at the charts on them why would you want one. Even the gun mags. say they are not much good for anythin other than a chipmunk. I own a 222 and this gun will kick a 221 fireballs butt. Please do not think I am being an ass about this I just do not like seeing you waste the money on an inferer rifle. As for the CZ brand...Hey they are having a bad time after getting there asses kicked by the rusians....Think of buying one of there guns like supporting foriegn aid. I have considered buying one of there 22 cals for my son they are really well made.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

From my experience, CZ's quality is above that of Rem. for a lower price. They come with decent scope rings and a fully adjustable trigger right out of the box to boot (the American model at least). But, since Rem is made in America, I should put up with the lower quality workmanship and higher price? That would simply reinforce their behavior of putting out lower-quality merchandise and nothing would change. Unless they feel some pressure from competition, what impetus is there for them to improve their product line? I say, more competition the better, even if it's from a non-US company. It will only serve to give us better products in the long run if we demand they improve their product line. If a US company can't successfully compete with a Czech company, that's pretty bad business.

Remember when Detroit refused to improve their vehicles, and the Japanese makers were kicking their butt? It finally resulted in improved technology and efficiency in American cars/trucks.
Some American (note the "some") gun manufacturers show little innovation, apparently counting on brand loyalty.
My Remingtons all shoot well, but the most recent purchase, the 700 Classic 221 Fireball, has problems that should not exist, namely poor ejection, and erractic feeding from the magazine. And as expected the trigger (now corrected) was horrible from the factory.
Considering the cost, checking out the competition would certainly make me practical, not anti-American.
As to one poster bashing the Fireball, he speaks from inexperience, not knowledge! The Fireball is an overachiever, getting a lot of horsepower from a small case. And LilGun powder has further upped what the 221 can do. Amazing to see my 40gr loads now run 3500+ fps....

Excellent Post Geo!
I have never owned a CZ, But i plan to now.Your comments about competition are right on the money!

Here is some fuel for the fire
When my local walmart was being built the unions picketed because union labor was not used.
IMHO Walmart used the labor that was the best value. not the cheepest. A bid job like most construction. The union labor with the formans and supervisors was not an equal value. If the union used more common sense with the power they have it may be able to compete on bids.

A side note. Has anyone ever worked at a booth at a trade show?? The ones I attend (20 plus a year) You cannot pull in a wheeled cart or a step ladder when setting up the booth. You must use the provided union labor which seems to be the bottom of the barrel at a charge of $80 to 100 an hour.

[ 05-06-2003, 03:28: Message edited by: Hairtrigger ]

My "bashing" of the fireball has to do with any inexperience but just simple logic. Look at all the reviews and all the ballistic info on the fireball. You want to see a 40 grain bullet fly get a 22-250. If you want somthing you can shoot more than chipmunks with how about a 223. You can at least get some grain weights you can work with. The 221 is a way of Remington and the gun makers to try to sell some guns to people who don't do there homework......Not trying to pick a fight just hate to see people buy somthing that is just unable to deliver and wound animals.

Alright, I've got to butt in here. Your lack of experience with the Fireball is pretty plain. I've had a few, all would run 40's out at 3600+, 50's at 3200 fps with accuracy using about 17-19 grains of powder. Sorry pal, but it is more efficient than your beloved 222 or 223. Meaning, more shooting with less barrel heating, wear, and fouling. That is the ticket in a gopher field, and everything you need out to a solid 300 yards. The Fireball is and always has been the mid range cartridge for those that *DO* do their homework.

Dan C

I will agree on this ....Mid range cartridge it is....and compairing it to a 222...they are both good mid range but still don't hold a candle to a 22-250. As for the 223 I'm not a "lover" of the 223 just a smart shopper. For those that are not into reloading there are all kinds of loads for it compaired to the 221's selection. If all you are going to hunt are dogs....well your selection of the 221 isn't bad just I wouldn't try to take anything that is bigger than maybe a midsize coyote with it at 200 yards. Why try to get the speeds up to compete with the 22-250...just buy one

"I own a 222 and this gun will kick a 221 fireballs butt." ztiger, now that your first statement has been "shot down", you switch to comparing a Fireball to a 22-250. Your "simple logic" is strange.
Like many others, the Fireball is a "reloaders cartridge", responding well to the those of us who actually use it.

Hairtrigger, I almost got into a fist fight at a trade show in NYC because I moved some boxes of my living materials from a hot loading dock because the lazy bastards would not bring them up to my booth. Seems as if I pissed about half of NYC off, dock workers, dreyage assholes, and show employees. They were actually going to try and take the boxes of living materials back to the dock. I called them the parasites they were and told them all to kiss my Southern ass. Never saw so many fat lazy asses in one spot.
ztiger, the .223 is a good varmit round but not nearly as efficient as the fireball, basically the same performance from about half the powder. Seems like a great little round to me.

Sorry for going off like that
Much more interesting to talk guns

mulerider...I will have to agree with you on this one point. It is a reloaders cartridge. Even though I do reload I don't look at a caliber and think what can I do to improve it I look at it and think what is it capable of doing right now with the standard roads avalable. To me reloading is a way to insure consistancy in my shots in long range shooting and mid range. If you can make somthing shoot 200 feet faster....fine just as long as the range, energy and shot pattern are still in tact. I am not trying to argue with anyone which is better. If you can get everything and more out of the 221 after reloading it to be a great round then awesome. Reloading it.....but not just getting a box off the shelf. Off the shelf rounds you can just do better getting somthing other than a 221.

Please look at Remington.com and compare the 222 50gr boat tail with thw 221 50 gr boat tail.
The 222 beats the 221 all they way. I'm not pulling this out my ass just look. Maybe on the reloading bench but I am sure I could do the same with the 222 if I wanted to. You all need to face the facts that Remington just came off with a 222 knock off to try to sell you more guns.

ztiger----

Reading ballistics charts to judge a caliber is like marrying an unseen woman because her measurements were good.

You're getting USE mixed up with velocity.

I shoot the Fireball a LOT. I also have 22-250s, a 22-250 AI, Swift, Zipper, and several K-Hornets.......did you notice the plurals?

I vary the bullet by powder capacity. I've never shot anything but 40 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips in the Fireballs, nothing but 55gr BTs in the Zipper, and all the 22-250s and the Swift.

When I want to shoot 50 rounds an hour in the hot sun in a ground squirrel town the K-Hornets and Fireballs are called to duty. I take shots to 350 yards for chuckles. If I'm shooting chucks across the canyon, I shoot the heavier bullet in a bigger case. Barrels last longer that way.

Real shooters dearly love the Fireball. It does 90% of what the 223 does on 80% of the powder and noise and allows you to see the hits through the scope.

BTW-- I shot 7 coyotes from 50 yards to a lasered 610 yards in two days with the Fireball. I've never lost one and never had a bullet exit. Badgers tip right over without even a snarl.

Experience makes legends......the Roberts doesn't look good on paper either.....but it works better than that.

ztiger said-"You all need to face the facts that Remington just came off with a 222 knock off to try to sell you more guns."
40 years ago Remington introduced the Fireball, and waited till 2002 to market it (for one year)in a rifle. Seems like their primary market was those of us who know and enjoy the cartridge.
I've had my converted Rem 788 for 10+ yrs. And I actually....this will be a shock to ztiger...rechambered a perfectly good 222 Rem!
The number of fellow shooters who admire (almost covet) my Fireball(s) is high, especially after shooting them.
And yep, I also have a Hornet and 223 Rem, and enjoy them all.

Muleballs has it right. The Fireball in a rifle is one of the most handy "walking around" rifles made. I have had my rechambered Remington 722 in .221 Fireball for about 2 years. I have shot it more, and taken more crows with it, than any varmint rifle I have ever owned. It really performs with the 40 gr. Vmaxes. It is great fun to get 3310 fps. out of them using only 21 gr. of powder in a 19.5" barrel.

As an aside, I also own and operate a .222, multiple .223's, and 2 .22/250's.

Question for Mulerider and LC'92..,if you rechamber a 700/722 in 222/223 to the 221,will it feed?I have a 700/222 that has a bad throat,was going to rechamber to 223 but this 221 talk has me thinking.

I AT A FRIENDS RANGE NOT TO LONG AGO HE WHIPPED OUT HIS NEW CUSTOM FIREBALL, IT IS THE ONLY RIFLE THAT I HAVE EVER BEEN ABLE TO PUT FOLLOW UP SHOTS IN A 1" SWINGING GONG AT 200YDS AND A 2" SWINGING GONG AT 300YDS I AM NOT AN REAL AVID RELOADER BUT THAT MAKES ME REALLY WANT TO START BECAUSE IT IS SUCH A PLEASURE TO SHOOT AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT COOKING THE BARREL

posted by rembo:
[QB]Question for Mulerider and LC'92..,if you rechamber a 700/722 in 222/223 to the 221,will it feed?I have a 700/222 that has a bad throat,was going to rechamber to 223 but this 221 talk has me thinking.

My 788 magazine feeds the Fireball quite well, and if it had a stiffer spring would likely be flawless. I can testify LC92 (which stands for Liars Club - he's the President) has no problems with his 722 feeding the Fireball. He had to convert a 722 cuz I would not die soon enough for him to get his grubby paws on my 221!
Now that Remington has made a Fireball in 700, the magazine and follower might be available, if needed.

rembo,
To see if it will feed the Fireball, just put some in the magazine and try it. My 722 has a follower and a block from a .222 and it feeds perfectly. It uses a model 700 .222 Mag. barrel that was set back and reamed to Fireball.

Fireballs Forever! To anyone doubting this cartridge in any way take it from me it will kill ANY Varmint in North America and do so with ease! I have owned a sweet Kimber Ultra Varmint in 221 Fireball since 1993. It has a heavy 24" barrel, a beautiful laminated checkered stock, has a super trigger and is a factory stock single shot rig. I have a Leupold 12X scope on it and have literally killed everything from Coyotes to Gophers with it. Over the years I have also killed Badger, Fox, Rock Chucks, Jack Rabbits, Skunks, Turtles, Crows, Magpies, Prairie Dogs, Porcupine and several other specie of Vermin. The Fireball (with good bullets) lacks nothing in lethality! I have killed many LARGE Rock Chucks at 300 yards with it! Do not sell this round short! It is SENSATIONALLY accurate and easy on barrels, brass and ears!
My latest 221 Fireball is a Remington 700 Classic. I have a 4X12 Leupold on it and it uses only 16.0 grains of Lil'Gun powder to get excellent velocity and accuracy! (Divide 7,000 grains [one pound] by 16.0 grains and you come up with ... uh... 437.5! - thats 437.5 charges for the Fireball from one pound of powder - try and do that with your 22-250!)
I know many Varminters who have rechambered or rebarreled their 223's to 221 Fireball! All have been happy with the results. My friend Jack rechambered a very accurate Ruger 77VLSS in 223 to 221 Fireball and the Rifle was even more accurate after the work!
For a calling Rifle, a walkabout Varminter or a Rifle that you want to use in close quarters the Fireball is first rate in my experience! I have a friend that won't use anything else when he is chipping away at the edges of a Prairie Dog town!
With todays powders and bullet selections the Fireball is just a splendid little Varminter!
Sure there are cartridges that can shoot further but very few are more consistently more accurate.
Brass lasts forever, mild report (more Varmints brought to bag!), mild recoil (spot your own shots!), economical (remember the low powder charges etc.) and superb accuracy - yeah I think those Fireballs will be in my Varmint arsenal for a long time!
Long live the Fireball!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Heres a picture of my converted Fireball and its last Coyote.

LC '92: Wow what a great photo! Good for you on the recent Coyote harvesting! I like your Rifle also by the way - obviously a Remington 722 with perhaps a custom barrel or a shortened barrel. What length is it and which Leupold is that on top? Obviously a neat calling Rifle! I have never Hunted Texas but I imagine that short barrel in the Texas brush country comes in handy! Also do you experience any feeding problems with the tiny Fireball from your closed magazine?
Which bullet do you use (prefer) in your Rifle?
Thanks for the info and the great photo!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
UPDATE: LC '92: I had overlooked your short posting above that answered some of my questions! I have those answers but was wondering which bullet you like for Coyotes with your Fireball? Thanks again!

[ 05-28-2003, 01:16: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

The only bullet I have ever fired through this rifle is the 40 gr. Vmax. It is an excellent varmint bullet. Devastating on crows and coyotes and excellent accuracy. The barrel is just over 19" and is a set back model 700 .222 Mag. barrel.

Mine's shot nothing but molied 40 gr Nosler BTs.



Sako Rhimakii, #4 Douglas SS, 21 inches long. 4-12 Leupold.