I have a CZ .221FB, love the rifle, very accurate. Down side is only one factory load available. Thought I would begin to reload, just don't have the time in my schedule. Was thinking about a 527 in either .17 Rem or .204. I see Remington is loading .204's now. Will be using it for a wide range of varmints, particularly fox and coyote here in Pa.. Thanks

Either option would be dandy. .17 will give less pelt damage, if that is important to you. The .204 would probably tag the 'yotes out there a little farther.
JCN

393 lasered (Leica Geovid) yards.

George

Everyone likes the calibers they like and we are all fairly positive "our" favorites are the best.
That said here are the numbers off the ballistics calculator for a .223 50 grain V-Max at 3,400fps compared to the .20 cal 40 grain V-Max at 3,900fps. The rifles both sighted in at 300 yards. First, the 50 grain V-Max has a BC of .242, the .20 cal 40 V-Max has a BC of .275. Using a 70 degree day at 4,800 ft above sea level (that's where I live) with SD's of 0.15.

.223
+3.05 @ 100
+3.86 @ 200
000 @ 300
-9.84 @ 400
-27.07 @ 500
At 500 yards the 50 grain V-Max is carrying 396 ft lbs of energy.

.20 cal .204 or Tactical .20
+1.95 @ 100
+2.63 @ 200
000 @ 300
-6.69 @ 400
-18.24 @ 500
At 500 yards the .20 cal 40 V-Max is carrying 512 ft lbs energy.

At 500 yards the .20 cal is 8.83 inches flatter shooting, has 116 ft lbs more energy and drifts less in the wind (better BC, higher velocity).

All personal favorites aside, which one is a better 500 yard p-dog rifle?
I've shot numerous p-dogs over 500, in fact on our last p-dog shoot my wife shot 2 for 2 at 425 Lica meassured yards.
Take your pick.

montdoug,

I couldn't have said it better myself. I wish I knew enough about the ballistics of bullets before I bought my 223. I tallked to a fellow at Scheel's who's ditching his 223 and 22-250 because of his Savage 12VSS chambered for a 204.

I talking to about half a dozen people who actual have a 204 rifle, the *ONLY* complaint was that currently there is no powder that can match the factory ammo's velocity. Otherwise, as soon as a 204 rifle shows up in the store, it sells in a heartbeat.

I'm deciding between the Savage or the Cooper. I just may go with the Savage because of the extra weight means lower recoil. I dunno yet. Its also $400 cheaper and I hear it shoot pretty darn close to the Cooper. I have to try my Uncle Bud's bags at the range and see how effective it is.

Kory

Uplandr,

Quote:

---

All personal favorites aside, which one is a better 500 yard p-dog rifle?
I've shot numerous p-dogs over 500, in fact on our last p-dog shoot my wife shot 2 for 2 at 425 Lica meassured yards

---

With all due respect, Montdoug just answered the prairie dog part of your question.

Later, pdhntr

Think I'm trading for .204 CZ527. I'll be ready when the prairie dog's migrate to Pa.!

uplandr,

Do look at the Savage 12VSS. The CZ is a great rifle, no questions there, but the Savage is just awesome. Incredible trigger and wonderful fit & finish. The action is so smooth its like butta!

Kory

Just to add some fuel to the fire... check this out:

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

Whee!

As an aside... I have to ask. What are *realistic* velocities attained thru handloading the .204? I hardly ever buy factory ammo, and I seem to keep hearing this bit about the ammo using a special cannister grade powder that achieves speeds not reproducable in the real world w/ handloads. That in and of itself is kind of a pisser. And then I keep seeing some data that I find highly suspect, to say the least. Take for example the chart linked on that website I listed above: It claims something like 3680fps for a 55gr pill out of a .220 Swift vs. 3900fps for a .204 Ruger. I *had* a .220 Swift, and I'd say 3680 is one pussified load for a 55gr V-Max or BlitzKing. 3900-3950 is more like it. Just like I saw these ads about how the .204 is the fastest factory round ever, w/ a velocity of something like 4200-4300fps w/ the light bullets. Funny, when I first got that .220 Swift, I remember the first box of factory ammo I got... 40gr V-Maxes in Hornady brass... listed on the side of the box I swear it said 4300fps.

Hmmm... Me thinks some people are overstating one and understating the others to make comparisons come out the way they want. And then we throw in the not being able to reproduce those velocities in handloads, whereas normally almost any other cartridge out there an ambitious handloader can kick into warp drive compared to the factory loads... something doesn't add up, it would appear.

YMMV,

Monte

I'm looking to stay with a light weight carry rifle, or I would probably purchase the Savage. Lots of bang for the buck. Thanks.

I just reread the first post in this thread and realized I was confusing this thread with another one, OOPS!
No reloading, factory ammo, fairly short distances, .223's hard to beat. I'd still personally go with the .17 or .204 due to the point made about pelt damage.
Better still learn to reload and keep the Fireball, (easy round to learn on).
Even "Better" still get one of each, they are all great!

I just bought a 527 in 204 from another board member.

He was kind enough to include 40 pieces of brass with the rifle. Unprimed brass seems to be made of drawn unobtainium.

I loaded 30 rounds for my first range trip with the 204.

15 rounds of 32g V-max(IMR 4895 data) and 15 rounds of 40g V-max(Vargetdata).

The groups with the 32g were ok, under 1.25".

The picture is of the very gratifying 4th,5th and 6th groups of the day.







I'd call the fliers in groups 1 and 3 my fault.

I was astounded at the groups considering that I shot 5 shots in a row without letting the pencil thin barrel cool.

I did let the barrel cool between groups.

For the non reloaders, the Hornady factory 32g held well under an inch in the few groups I shot with it.

My only issue with the rifle is the magazine.

It hangs up on the first round into battery, feeds 2,3 and 4 ok then you have to release the 5th by slightly depressing the magazine release.

So if you want a fast follow up, don't top off the mag(at least in my case.

The Fireball is a neat caliber and I might not switch,

223 would be more economical and simple, but after my first outing with my first 20 I certainly don't regret it.

I shoot a Tactical .20 based on the .223 case. The .204 has approx 3 grains more case capacity (faster?). My two working loads are 24.2 grains of H4198 with a 33 grain V-Max at 4,200+ as well as 25.6 grains of Benchmark under a 40 grain V-Max for 3,900ish.

I also have several .22-250's and for one I have a load using the 40 grain V-Max at 4,030ish fps, the difference is that load takes 38.6 grains of Varget. That's 13 grains of powder for 130 fps or one grain of powder for every 10 fps faster. As well as going from a BC of .275 to a BC of .242. The .20 cal with it's better BC is flatter (a little) and has slightly more energy at 500 when both are sighted in at 300.

I'm sure a .220 Swift'll go even faster than that. To me it isn't just which is fastest, both a 40 grain .20 cal at 3,900 and a .22 cal 40 grain at 4,030 are very explosive. The difference is effeciency, I shoot very few of the 250's at a setting cause I don't want to burn out the throat on a good barrel (Weisman), the 40 grain Tact.20 load doesn't heat up any faster than a .223. Plus which until you shoot p-dogs with a hyper velocity round that allows you to see all the hit's through the scope cause the recoils so light, you don't know what your missing. Very entertaining as well as being a huge help on varmints at long distance.

I sure have no investment in putting down any round. There are certainly situations where a hot-rod .22 such as a .22-6MM certainly perform in a class of there own, but they are very specialized and not well suited high volume or day to day varminting. I'm an equal opportunity gun lover, I love em all!

And yes Monte, I think someone is trying to sell rifles in that link you provided.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the .204 Ruger is without promise. Smaller faster lighter w/ better B.C. is something I'm a serious believer in, within reason. I've seen people w/ .308's get whomped on to the point that almost everybody shoots an AR in Service Rifle pushing 77gr and 80gr VLD's. It's not always the better choice; I shoot primarily a 6.5-08 bolt gun pushing high(er) B.C. bullets as fast or faster, but I pay a price for it. To me, in that application, it's worth it.



As far as the .204 Ruger... I'd like to see some more bullets come out. Then again I said I was holding off on a .17 HMR until more than one company was producing ammo, and I still don't have one for some damn reason. I'd really like to know why the blue blazes you can't get the speed out of that case that the factory loads can. What weird niche in the burn rate does that cannister grade stuff occupy that isn't already filled by an existing powder? If the reports I've been hearing, of retained velocity in the same or better range as a .22-250 or .220 Swift, w/ a case the size of a .223 Rem, and throat erosion significantly less than a .22-250 or .220 Swift... it sounds good to me. I just want to be able to squeeze it till it squeaks, and back off if I want or need to. Might be a good excuse for a new rifle anyway Thoughts of the equivalent of a semi-automatic magazine-fed .22-250 in a prairie dog town gives me the shivers



BTW, how fast are you pushing those 75gr BTHP's to stay supersonic at 1k? That's got to be one healthy load.



Monte

jnh, But you have to remember the source of the comment about the 223......GeorgeS! He's the guy who goes wandering through the brush in Africa in search of Cape Buffalo using "BIG GUNS" that "kill on both ends" while suffering from a case of the dribbling sh...!!!! I couldn't help it George!! Was just to good an oppurtunity to pick on ya!!! And as far as the 223 goes....a fine round!! The 222MAG was always better!!! GHD

I spoke with Doug at Hornady who was instrumental in the development of the .204. He stated the .204 was loaded to lower pressures due to the likelihood of it ending up in semi autos, inparticular the Mini .14.
I'm just guessing here but I'm willing to bet in a good bolt rifle a conscientious reloader can safely match or exceed the factory velocities. To date the Tactical .20 guy's seem to be winning the velocity race even with a smaller capacity case. With 3 grains higher case capacity there's no earthly reason for this other than loading to lower pressures in the .204. Interesting topic.
I too see no need for rounds of this nature in a semi auto, but as we all know "Different strokes for different folks!"
As to the .223 being "better" again see my above post. If heavy bullets are the goal that's a different deal, but then we're comparing apples to turnips! By the way did I mention I liked apples? And turnips?

Doug, I spoke with Todd Kindler on Thursday of last week and he made mention of the fact that the reason that the .204's are all "long throated" (my Savage is 160/1000's from factory loadings!!!) is because of the "high pressures"! I agree with you on this one for sure!!! I guess I'll just have to go back to the "redevelopement" mode and push the envelope a bit!!! I got 4122 out of the 33's you sent and they were accurate!!(Post that pic I sent you with the groups if you can!!! I'm computer illiterate and don't have a clue as to how to do that)! My 32 grain load that is consistently in the .3's shows absolutely no pressure signs!! I'd bet I can push that one 1.5 grains more and not be dangerous!!! Guess I'll just have to try now!! I did get my NS die and my flash hole deburring tools this week! Even the old brass ought to work better!! I've got 300 pieces of once fired stuff to work on!!! Ought to be able to "sort" a few lots out of that much!!! GHD

In the warm glow of the rising flames I reread the thread.

I think where it might have gone south is where the .17's and .20's were called crap! If that isn't taking a cheap shot at others opinions (I happen to love em!!!) I'm missing something in the translation! If I'm not mistaken pdrhntr1 you agreed with that post.

I had originally mistaken the post for another I'd been following (hence the ooops) I then returned to topic.

Your point about leaving topic is accurate and well taken.



Blanketing two full calibers worth of cartriges (some of which are used exclusively by profesional hide hunters and do a tremendous job) as crap will probably start an argument just about every time! Especially when posted by people with little or no experience with them. For close range coyotes and fox the .17's and .20's have few peers "especially" if you'd like to keep the hides.

Just my observation.

(edited)

In reading it one more time pdhntr1 I think you might be mistaken about who went off topic, the original post mentioned a .221 Fireball as compared to the .17 Rem and .204 I missed the part where he asked someone to talk him into a .223. Maybe the .17 and .20 "experts" weren't that far off!

Doug, CABELAS catlog lists the "33 gr VMAX"!!! So I called and ordered all they had! 5000, 10000, 40000!!! Just send them all! Ladie laughed and said I was the 6th caller to call in already(about 10:30AM EDT) and that they had been getting 50 calls a day for them!!! OK, Steve Hornady, why don't you bring them back? GHD

jbhewitt-- Please post your results with the Remington factory ammo for the .204 Ruger. Did you purchase both the 32 gr. and 40 gr. stuff or just one bullet weight?

uplndr--I would suspect how the factory ammo works in your rifle may vary from my results, but then again, it may be similar or even better. I purchased 15 boxes of the 32 gr. Hornady factory ammo when I purchased my rifle. Since virgin brass wasn't available, I figured this was the ONLY way I was going to get the quantity of brass I like to have reloaded for a couple day prairie dog hunt. The 32 gr. Hornady factory ammo didn't shoot worth beans in my Savage 12VLP to start with, but after 50 to 60 rounds the groups began tightening up. I was VERY pleased with the accuracy and performance of the last 200 factory rounds I shot in my rifle. I shot my last 80 rounds of factory ammo on Tuesday in a prairie dog town and will now be shooting reloads. When I first ran the 32 gr. factory loads over the chronograph I was getting a muzzle velocity of 4,091 fps. The last time I ran them over the chronograph about two weeks ago, I was getting 4,200 fps from the factory ammo.

I have not tried the 40 gr. factory loads, but some shooters have had good performance/accuracy with them and others have rifles that just don't seem to shoot that grain weight of bullet in factory loads very good at all.

Hi JBHewitt:

I keep hearing about "arrangements" between Hornady and Remington, in particular regarding vmax/accutip and some load sharing. In any event, if you could tell me if your Remington .204 cases have a Remmy headstamp, I would appreciate it. Sure would be nice to have remmy cases available soon!

Thanks,
John

How much are hides worth today?

David

John 8061, The Remington 32 grain factory loaded cartridges I have seen did have the REMINGTON head stamp on them. I haven't shot any yet because I now have a supply of brass but they were definitly Rem head stamped! GHD

Just to clarify. I did not push my opinion on anyone or try to talk trash on any caliber. 4 years aint a bunch of time, that is calling at night using lights. I killed my first fox almost 20 years ago. Now let me further say the in the last four years I have hunted (calling)in 2 coyote and 7 fox hunts on top of the 4-6 nights a week I am out. I spoke with countless people and inspected there animals along with the batch that me and my hunting buddy have shot. So in the last 4 years I have seen around about 200 dead foxes, hit with everything from 243 on down to 22 long rifle. I did this attmepting to find a perfect fur gun. 22 cal seems to be on the heavy side, damage wise, they can be loaded down and bullets changed. Hell a 22mag will make a hugh hole with a fringe shot. The man said he does not reload. I dearly love the 223 and the 22-250. Anywhere in the 6 counties I hunt (2 in MD and 4 in Pa) shots at much over a hundred yards are not going to happen becuase you are not going to be able to sit down on your ass and see that far on most of your sets. I just picked up a 722 today that is going to be a 20cal something, so I am definatley not anti 204. If I was hunting foxes tonight and I had to pick between a 17 Rem a 204 and a 223. I will take the 17 that is all I said. I had a 17 Ackley Hornet built this year. I have it sitting beside 2 223s and a 22-250. So if I offended anyone that was not my intention. Nobody said that there is about 5 places that will tailor a load to his gun, so he did not have to reload. Maybe we should have tried to promote the sport of reloading to a fellow shooter. Alot of stupid things get started on this board that would not get off the ground sitting around drinking coffee.

I'm with you 100 percent Hornetfan. First what you said shouldn't have offended any one, second I couldn't agree more about the value of reloading (on many levels).

I've got one or more of everything we've talked about on this thread and there's a situation were each of em'd be my pick. That said in the situation you described for close range fox or coyote my first pick would be a .17 if I wanted the hide .17 Remington if I didn't reload, something smaller in a .17 if I did (in my case a .17 Mach IV).

The one round mentioned I don't have (and want in the worst old fashion way) is the .17 Ackley. Excellent for the application mentioned as well as large volume coloney rodent shooting. So many calibers, so little time! (and money)

Pdhntr1: I will take what you so snidely describe as "cheap shots" at posters when ever and where ever I CHOOOSE! You have nothing what so ever to say regarding how, when or what I post! Check your big head in at the door please!

In addition I stand by my statements and anyone that CLAIMS to have Hunted Prairie Dogs for NEARLY as long as I have SHOULD - be impressed with a 9" improvement in trajectory at 500 yards! To even suggest otherwise is ridiculous!

Any one that accuses others of preaching then makes ridiculous statements like striking Coyotes in the shoulders with bullets is, well, in over their heads! I hope you do not take offense to that but you must be corrected! Do not aim at or strike Coyotes in the shoulders with your Varmint Rifle! There are simply much better places to aim and strike said Varmint! Heed my "preachings" in this regard and you will not have "bullet" or "caliber" failures! Coyotes should be struck in the heart/lungs area or in the head and they will be quickly and humanely be put down with about any Varmint bullet at any reasonable range! If a Varminter can not be sure of his shot (like in all types of Hunting) the shot should not be taken and patience should be used.

I beg to differ with you but your ridiculous rant about a 9" flatter trajectory not being noteworthy or of significance is indicative of your obvious inexperience in the field!

Flatter trajectory means a higher success rate in the Varmint fields - period!

I have as yet to kill a Coyote with either of my new 204 Ruger calibered Varminters but I have killed many Coyotes and Fox with my two 17 Remington Varminters and my custom 17 MachIV. The Coyotes and Fox die quickly and humanely when struck in the proper kill zone with these calibers. I do have much experience with them but your snide ass remarks serve no purpose what so ever regarding calling someone "expert" when no one I have read here has claimed such status.

You though have defined yourself as a whiney assed baby that can not handle an opposing view or experience! That is another of your shortcomings!

By the way I have killed two Coyotes with one shot apiece from my Ruger 77/17V in caliber 17 HMR! I of course used patience and proper bullet placement to kill both of them. One was head shot and the other was shot through the heart/lung area!

Place a (or any!) Varmint bullet in the proper kill zone of a Coyote at any reasonable range and it will be dead. 17 caliber centerfire (or rimfire!) or a 221 Fireball (I have two Varminters in this fine and accurate caliber by the way) and said Coyote WILL die quickly!

But again to imply that a 9" flatter trajectory is not significant is - we have a saying for this kind of stupidity in Montana - "showing your ass"!

Another ass showing blather that you make is your again snide and immature blather about the 204 shooting flatter at 70 yards than the 223. This points out again YOUR immaturity with dealing with reality and others. Yeah, you were "gotten" there at 70 yards (I hope I do not need your permission to point that out!) and at 500 yards you were really "gotten".

You must also be corrected in this regard also - I hope you do not mind! Peoples impressions regarding what a certain caliber can or can not do are certainly GERMANE here and relevent, and in fact are CRITICAL to the intent of postings and web sites like this one! That is exactly what these sites are created to do - to be a forum for the exchange of impressions, ideas and experiences!

I killed my first Varmint with a 22 LR in 1954! That was half a century ago and I was 7. I have been killing them ever since. I killed my first Prairie Dog near Alazada, Montana with a 222 Remington in the 1960's. I remember to this day being impressed on the much flatter trajectory with the "Deuce" and how much easier it was to hit them with it compared to the 22 LR. I recently had occassion to relive that favorable "impression" having killed my first Prairie Dogs with the wonderful 204 Ruger cartridge!

I simply call BULLSHIT on your attempt to denounce AYONE for expressing their "impressions" on anything! In case you missed it I will repeat - you are full of BULLSHIT!

Perhaps you should try and intimidate someone who you might have a chance in impressing - like a 5 year old (maybe)!

With me "buddy" you are WAY out of your league! No chance what so ever!

Now if you can not stand being corrected or some one stating (posting) something you do not agree with then prove them wrong, ignore them or find another pastime!

I know from this instant on if you post more incorrect or outlandish "statements" I will correct them with gusto, with fact, with real life experiences, and when I choose to, with snideness (returning the favor so to speak!).

Again YOU are way out of your league trying to set "rules" for others here. I will "preach" to you or anyone else when I choose to! NOT when you think its OK!

Long live the 17's! Long live the 204!

More to follow!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Montdoug,

I didn't read GeorgeS post as calling the calibers crap. But I certainly see how this could be done, and I should not have agreed with that part of the post. I do not think they are crap in the least, and yes, not treating a subject or another person with respect is a good way to start a fight and certainly shows a lack of maturity.

As far as getting off thread with my post recommending the .223, I thought very carefully about that before I posted it. And that is why I made sure I was addressing his questions and location. Ask yourself, if you are addressing a posters questions/concerns are you off thread?

Calling you guys experts was not an underhanded slam. I did not call you "experts" that is your punctuation, not mine. Once again, I was showing respect for the experts you truely are. And as experts I would think you would try to discuss for Uplandr's benefit the commercially loaded ammo available for the .17 and .20. That was my point.

Later, pdhntr

I appreciate everyone's responses, that's why I posed the question here, to take advantage of your experience. I understand that the .223 is a great round and there are numerous factory options. I tend to favor out of the ordinary calibers, that's why I went with the .221 FB initially. With that said, are there enough factory loads available for the .204 to make it a good choice. I saw on Remingtons website that they too will offer .204 ammo soon. my continued thanks...

Uplandr, in answer to your question; yes , I think there is enough factory loads available to make it a fantastic choice. I picked up a couple of boxes of remington ammo last weekend and I have no doubt that all the ammo makers will have ammo out by next spring. No , I don't think there will ever be as much choice in loaded ammo as the 223, military calibers will always have more choice in loaded ammo. There is no doubt that the 204 is here to stay and will be a favorite at least of mine and most other varmint hunters. I had the pleasure of shooting one of the first 15 inch encore barrels this last may while on a p-dog outing, good thing I had a baseball bat handy to keep the other guys away.

With that in mind and in light of the original post pdhntr1 is definitely right, a discussion is certainly in order on the different offerings in factory ammo.

Hornady has two both a 40 and a 32 both V-Max's (both very stable and explosive), if this round is as big a hit as it oughta be there'll be others, if not learn to reload cause that broadens your horizons big time.

Even with the factory offerings your well set. There has been much ado over the velocities claimed and achieved with factory ammo. Wether you get 3,980 or 4,290 out of a 32 V-Max there ain't a lot of difference.

My advise is to quit pickin nits at the range with a chrono and go shoot something, you'll be impressed I promise!

On foxes at close range I'd expect a fairsized exit hole, coyotes the same up close, after 150 yards it's a different story. Big dog coyote, bullet goes in' lights go out, probably no exit.



For longer range the 40's with their .275 BC have a large advantage. I've shot 14lb rock chucks at 350 yrds and can hardly find blood. They just flip up in the air and hit the deck D.O.A.!!

If I were strictley hunting fur for money (like back in the mid 70's when a good dog coyote was worth $125.00 to $175.00, {boy did we have some fun}, I got $360.00 for a big tom Bobcat that was super prime once, but I digress ) I'd probably use a .17 for under 300 and a .20 for over if I had the luxury of a golf bag full of rifles.

Maybe better yet a slick little wildcat .20 like the .20 VarTarg or the .20 Dasher, but there I go starting a new topic again.



But that aside the .17 Remingtons only offering is a good one, 25 grain Hornady HP little but mighty! Usually not real dramatic, (if double pirouette back flips with intestines flying get ya going ya might better go with the .20's) but it's just like someone flipped the switch, critter just stops, (kinda eery!).Seldom an exit and if it does it's about the size of a sewing needle.

Good luck with whatever ya get!!!

Keep us posted how it shoots.



By the way pdhntr1, no hard feelings heh?

In a nutshell, "Somebody just built a better mousetrap!!!" The .204 is IMPRESSIVE!!! Even to us "dyed in the wool" 22-250,25-06,various 6's, fans!!!!!! For varmints, this one is classic!!! And yes, Remington's factory 32 grain loading is now showing up on store shelves.....haven't shot any yet....don't need any more brass! It will probably perform with about the same results as the HORNADY 32's.....which was acceptable for a varmint rifle. I think(just my opinion so if you disagree, J.I.M.S.!!!(new abbreviation just coined, it stands for "Jump In My Shit")that the .204 and the .20's in general, just may be the real cat's meow for varminters! The 17's are superb. Some of the 22's are superb. The various 6's are the long range accurracy,varmint "top of the heap" stuff only topped by a good 25-06(couldn't help that plug!!! but the 20's seem to kind of fit a bunch of stuff in one!!! Accurracy, neglible recoil, economics, FUN!!!!(that could fit all mentioned when shooting varmints!) and did I mention accurracy?!! GHD PS: Hides don't really mean that much to me! Bout like a deer!!! They're just overgrown varmints!!!

Gheee groundhog devastation, how do ya really feel?



Great ain't they?